opiate withdrawal

Geez AI Today,
That's horrible. Are you able to cope with the pain? Obviously this is an extremely stressful time for you, which would only compound the pain.

The worst thing that can happen to a pain sufferer is to suffer from escalating addiction, get busted and labeled an abuser. It makes it so much more difficult to have anyone take their pain seriously. And I'm only talking about physical pain.

You are going through an awful lot on your own. I know you want to keep your stuff separate, so I hope you post something soon in the swamp so we can help support you.

I hope you are able to do some of the EE. Not knowing all that you deal with day to day, I can only imagine your burden and I really feel for you.

Thanks for the explanation.

Gonzo
 
It is very true that addiction varies person to person. This is why rehabs fail the majority of the time, and the 12 steps arent for everyone. I remember what it was like to go to rehab and feel like "Yeah, I should quit, but this is bs sitting around telling dope war stories." I remember feeling helpless, as tho I had no choice but to do what I had to do to get my next shot. Then suddenly, after years of ripping and running, a small voice inside got loud and convinced me to take steps to change. Sometimes I draw comparisons with the way I used to "Jones" and the way 4d STS must feel about their food source. A junky is industrial strength selfish, and very sociopathic. "Sorry! Just doin what I gotta do to get what I need!" Self pity and all that. God, I miss nothing about those days.
 
It is very true that addiction varies person to person. This is why rehabs fail the majority of the time, and the 12 steps arent for everyone. I remember what it was like to go to rehab and feel like "Yeah, I should quit, but this is bs sitting around telling dope war stories." I remember feeling helpless, as tho I had no choice but to do what I had to do to get my next shot. Then suddenly, after years of ripping and running, a small voice inside got loud and convinced me to take steps to change. Sometimes I draw comparisons with the way I used to "Jones" and the way 4d STS must feel about their food source. A junky is industrial strength selfish, and very sociopathic. "Sorry! Just doin what I gotta do to get what I need!" Self pity and all that. God, I miss nothing about those days.
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yeah I see it like this the only person to stop an addiction is themselves. Those rehabs may help a little but it overall come's down to the individual's commitment to stop the addiction. I know that you have to get people to come to terms with their reality and their situation.

I think this is what really gets people to quite to see things as they are and stop lying to themselves. With any addiction people do it to cover and hide some internal pain and people will even take it to death. But a constant lecture of why it is bad and telling the person your life story about your drug addiction doesn't make it better.

But getting someone to come to terms with their pain and sorrow then it's up to them whether or not they are willing to quite.

Just my thoughts on it could be wrong
 
Bar Kochba said:
Yec Davey, stay on your grind. Be wary of lying to yourself. Being addicted is mechanical sufferring and this is of absolutely no benefit to you. Deciding to break the addiction and following thru is conscious sufferring, and this is like money in the bank to help pay off old debts or to save up for the future.
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Following this thread has been both a comfort and a supreme pain in my a**. All the time I am reading these comments, and I am having arguements in my head with them, an activity which usually results in me wondering (yet again) if I will ever make up my mind to really, REALLY face the pain. The above quote from Bar Kochba was like a strong hand grabbed my chin and swung my head around to look into the face of truth. Mechanical suffering vs Conscious suffering. There's one to mull over for a bit. I wonder how many others, like myself, are "lurking" in the shadows of this thread, trying to muster the courage to admit that the answer to overcoming our addictions is right here in front of us, of me, like a beautiful, shining gift? But there is something "on" me that seems to make my hands slippery; I get ahold of it - that gift of tools to CHANGE - and then I find it slipping from my grasp, right along with my resolve. I want to want to be free, not just when I "feel" I want freedom, but even when the feeling is gone. Even when I'm afraid to be free, I want to want to pursue it, regardless of the very convincing mental chatter that would keep me bound. Maybe this is "swamp talk", if so, I apologize, I don't think I've posted enough to be allowed in there. Anyway, so I just want to say "Thank You" for all of the helpful information that has been posted on this thread, and thanks to Davey72 for having the guts to start the conversation.
 
davey72 said:
Hello all. I was wondering how you are doing these days, AlToday?
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Howdy Davey72. Thanks for caring. Shows me someone special is in you.!.!.!
As others have said. I may not know how to relate to your situation. I think it was something like I don't know what I'm talking about. We both have varied backgrounds, but a common program. I am so f'ing sick of being so textbook and easy to read. In the past month I have been seeing a person in the mirror that I did not know. And as I become familiar with that person, I cry, HARD. [edit: I am what I am. Different as it may be be outta the "norm", I think there is something special in the "bad" wiring" I, perhaps We are not like others for a reason.] Then again from my experience with the medical community, they apparently view there is no help for a brain wired like I have. I am to live in pain because they don't wanna buck the system. I told one "professional" if my dog suffered this much, I'd put him down. I was told to buy advils. F the closed minded, fearful, and perhaps just don't f'ng care ponerized profession... I am amazed at not having a professional at least try to understand my background. Yep, I abused my prescriptions and was promptly kicked out. A stray dog gets more sympathy than I. I offered to do scripts weekly and was promptly shut down. Anything is better than nothing.

What matters is that we are here. Living & breathing. I would really enjoy knowledge of what lesson I am to learn. Karmically, I must have been a real bad-ass hurting others to learn this lesson.

About a month now with no narcs. Pain sucks. Will power only. My natural endorphins are coming back, but I still have anger and narc desires. I have been damaged from the years of this garbage. All I know is nothing. One day, live with pain, try not to hate, and hopefully the pain will be relieved with a hip replacement. I call my self chemically imbalanced and therefore do not trust my thoughts. I merely ENDURE, with hope.

edit: Always my typing :lol:
 
Hi Al - I'm going to try to point out a few Al's I see in this post in the hopes that you can see them as well:


Al Today said:
I am so f'ing sick of being so textbook and easy to read. In the past month I have been seeing a person in the mirror that I did not know. And as I become familiar with that person, I cry, HARD. [edit: I am what I am. Different as it may be be outta the "norm", I think there is something special in the "bad" wiring" I, perhaps We are not like others for a reason.] Then again from my experience with the medical community, they apparently view there is no help for a brain wired like I have. I am to live in pain because they don't wanna buck the system. I told one "professional" if my dog suffered this much, I'd put him down. I was told to buy advils. F the closed minded, fearful, and perhaps just don't f'ng care ponerized profession... I am amazed at not having a professional at least try to understand my background. Yep, I abused my prescriptions and was promptly kicked out. A stray dog gets more sympathy than I. I offered to do scripts weekly and was promptly shut down. Anything is better than nothing.
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The above is the 'it's not my fault', 'poor me', 'I'm a victim', 'pity me' Al. He's not helping you.


Al said:
What matters is that we are here. Living & breathing. I would really enjoy knowledge of what lesson I am to learn. Karmically, I must have been a real bad-ass hurting others to learn this lesson.
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This one is 'there must be a reason bigger than just me and my choices' Al - while not as damaging as the 'pity me' Al, he's really not doing you much good either, because he's looking outside himself for reasons why he's suffering.



Al said:
About a month now with no narcs. Pain sucks. Will power only. My natural endorphins are coming back, but I still have anger and narc desires. I have been damaged from the years of this garbage. All I know is nothing. One day, live with pain, try not to hate, and hopefully the pain will be relieved with a hip replacement. I call my self chemically imbalanced and therefore do not trust my thoughts. I merely ENDURE, with hope.
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Now, this Al is the 'starting to see things more clearly' Al. In fact, this is one of the first times I've seen this Al since you stopped taking narcotics, though I've not read all your posts today, so I'm not sure if this is the first glimpse. This Al will help you - he's the one that is looking at what is and realizes the only way through this is to do it and not to feel sorry for himself or blame other people while he does.

So - take it for what it's worth, but it might be an interesting thing to consider that all these Als are not only dragging you here and there (as they do in all of us) but some of them are making this much harder than it has to be. I have a feeling that if you're off narcotics another month, the last Al will speak up more often.
 
An addict, sometimes without being aware of it, is always looking for pity. If they dont find it, they stick their middle finger up to the very people they wanted sympathy from. Al, your pain is going to increase not decrease for awhile. Your body didnt have to make natural pain relievers for a long time because the drugs took care of that. Take how many years you took meds...your brain and body chemistry arent going to heal overnight. Its been 8 months for me and I still aint "regular." Hang in there. Remain aware of yourself especially during this time because conscious suffering is priceless!
 
anart said:
Hi Al - I'm going to try to point out a few Al's I see in this post in the hopes that you can see them as well:
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Thank you Anart. As you (ALL OF YOU) point out these multiple Als, the better I can try to isolate their source, and try to cut their cords. I gotta say, I (or anyone) thinks they can heal themselves on their own, is mistaken. I thank you all to please keep throwing up those mirrors. "Seeing" what I have in the past view weeks has been a life time highly rated traumatic experience. The hard part is to stay focused on the Al I wanna be, while trying to recognize the false Als. The Als I don't wanna be.

Anart, you broke my post into three Als. I am mixed with humiliation and happiness. I am happy to see some progress being made, and sharp embarrassment over those Al children running around wildly in my brain. They have been with me all my life. I don't know if they need to grow up or somehow merge into one wholesome Al?

Davey, again I hope I have not give too much erroneous information. Davey, I guess I ask you to take anything I say with a grain of salt. There is much healing to go, BUT with my uncontrolled comments to you, a mirror is placed in front of my face and others explain the error of my ways.

[quote author=Bar Kochba]conscious suffering is priceless![/quote]
This statement I have forgotten, and you are correct. Thank You.
 
AI,
I have no idea how many little I most of us here on the forum have, but I think it's a safe bet to figure that many of us, myself included, have several we're working on and several more yet to be discovered. So, try not to get disheartened by the apparent work ahead of you. That work is your life's Work - this is you creating you and perhaps a primary purpose to you being in this life at this time, OSIT.

I wanted to mention something about pain and medication. If your pain is a burden heavier than you can bear, than it makes complete sense to deal with that pain. As you know, there are many ways to deal with the pain ranging from eradicating the cause to medicating the symptoms to learning how to better cope. And each of these can be equally important. So, if you haven't traveled all three of those paths, it might be beneficial to consider them.

I tend to rapidly build up tolerance to opiates. As a result, I eventually get to taking extremely high dosages and then have to go off for a couple of weeks, deal with agony and lack of sleep, until my tolerance drops and start all over again. This has been my cycle for almost 20 years from codeine all the way to hydromorphone (Dilaudid).

Several months ago I was prescribed the Butrans patch, which deliver an opiate/opiate agonist through the skin. What is different about this opiate is;
1. It's dosages are in micrograms and once in the system, is measured in pico grams, so it is a tiny dose compared to other opiates
2. It boosts the effectiveness of the oral opiate I have to take, as agonists tend to do.

In much higher dosages, it is actually an opiate antagonist, meaning it blocks the effect of opiates, since it attaches to the opiate receptors to such a degree that the molecules from the oral opiates cannot find a receptor, the oral opiate has no effect. In this dosage, it is used in addictions to block the effect of opiates by taking away the reward from the high.

This drug has reduced my dilaudid down from 8 x 8 mg per dosing, 3-4 times a day, down to 1-2 mg per dosing, 1-2 times per day. I have been stable at this level for several months.

So, Butrans might be an effective route to consider and discuss with your doctor.

However, I cannot stress the importance of going to a pain clinic or specialist. First off, depending on your country, such strong opiates can only be prescribed by pain specialists and secondly, such specialists are in a better position to help you deal with you pain in ways that GPs are just unaware.

I don't know if any of this helps, but I really feel for you.
Respectfully,
Gonzo
 
Gonzo, have you read this thread closely?

Al has made a decision to come off opiates. His fellow forumites are helping him through this difficult time, and you're recommending more opiates?!?
 
Sorry AI, if I misunderstood your intent or showed any disrespect to your decisions. I realize you are trying to get off opiates and now worry my thoughts were misguided. I was hoping to bring your attention to a few things you might not have considered when you decided to go off pain medication. I am not trying to sway you one way or another and I respect your decision. But I feel I would be remiss if I did not at least offer information you might not have considered so that you are making an informed decision.

I was thinking in terms of a holistic approach to pain relief as I am acutely aware how pain, when not dealt with effectively, can actually result in an increase in pain and pain perception. Therefore, concerns over addiction need to be weighed against the benefits offered through medicating pain. However, I would never recommend pain management strictly though pain medication, since pain is multidimensional and needs to be dealt with on all levels.

It is quite difficult to work on all of the dimensions of pain if the pain is out of control. Once pain is at a tolerable level, much work can be done on the diverse, complex psychological, physiological and even spiritual aspects related to pain. This includes identifying the source(s) of the pain and the investments one might have in suffering, one one side of the equation, and the investments in ending that suffering that one can make on the other side. The approach to pain management therefore comprises much more than merely masking the pain or eradicating the source, which hopefully prevents it from manifesting another way down the road.

The Butrans patch to which I referred, contains buprenorphine, an opiate agonist (in this dosage, an antagonist in significantly higher dosages) and allows one to take significantly smaller amounts of opiates, potentially so low that concerns for addiction may also be diminished. Since those experiencing moderate to sever chronic pain often have reduced abilities to produce endogenous (internally produced) opiates like endorphin, an opiate agonist may also help boost the value of what little endogenous opiates one might be producing. Finally, buprenorphine has also been shown to have an antidepressive affect, although it is not indicated for depression by binding to the opiate receptors and providing the reward usually associated with the "high" of opiates without actually providing the high.

It is rare, but not unheard of, to have sufferers of moderate to severe chronic pain become addicted the opiates. Your earlier-mentioned drug-seeking behaviour certainly adds a wrinkle. Which is why I strongly recommend seeking the consultation and guidance of a pain specialist. I have experienced both physical and psychological addiction to every opiate I have ever been prescribed and had/have to constantly fight the desire to increase my dosage or dose when unwarranted. As well I have also experienced the constant craving to re-experience the high I once got when I was fist prescribed the more potent opiates almost 20 years ago. Fortunately for me, my body just does not experience the high, so I can rationalize to some degree. It would be much more difficult if I could actually get that feeling by merely increasing the dosage or trying a different opiate, so I recognize how this inability certainly helps me fight the cravings. All this to say I have empathy for you as I can relate a bit of what you have expressed with my own experience.

It is entirely possible that I am overidentifying with you and your situation (and Davey's, for that matter) and so I am always open to mirroring.

Regards,
Gonzo
 
Gonzo said:
It is entirely possible that I am overidentifying with you and your situation (and Davey's, for that matter) and so I am always open to mirroring.

Regards,
Gonzo
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I think that is the case. You are thinking of yourself only here, and not Al. You are projecting your own situation onto him and, in that, attempting to determine what is best for him since you have determined it is 'best' for you. It is interesting that you, being addicted to opiate use in your own way, are recommending continued opiate use to others.

I can't stress enough that chronic use of opiates severely damages cognition and physical health - it is poison.
 
anart said:
I can't stress enough that chronic use of opiates severely damages cognition and physical health - it is poison.
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Yes this is true. I had 60 foot of guardrail come through my door and out the passenger window. Clipped me at the knees. Crazy times I gotta say. All started at 19 yrs of age, and here I am half a century later. There is pain, and there is opiates. Much damage. Long heal. Please bear with me as I heal. And effects I am struggling with.
 
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