opiate withdrawal

All disagreements regarding methadone aside, I'm pretty sure both go2 and aaron r. would agree that what is in everyone's best interest is elimination of all addictions, be they street drugs, food (especially the opiates in wheat), pharmaceuticals, etc. and that the system in general does not have addiction elimination a top priority.

We have a pretty good idea of the effects addiction can have on one's awareness and Frequency Resonance Vibration and from my understanding, the Work requires its elimination.

In considering the many models with elimination as the goal, I feel the nutrition treatment avenue worthy of further assessment.

We know full well the effects that food can have on intellect, perceptions and mood. To merely throw more drugs at the problem would further complicate an already complex situation.

We also know that childhood traumas play a significant role in the desire to escape or otherwise buffer oneself from the pain and memories and that the EE program is an especially helpful tool in this regard.

Is it possible with our current knowledge to put together an approach to addiction elimination through diet, supplement (drawing knowledge from nutritional treatment for addiction as well as Ultramind Solution Quiz responses), EE, specific psychology books or selected extracts or summaries without the need for professional psychological supervision?

If so, such a program could be delivered online or on DVD.

I do realize the dangers in appearing to promote a therapeutic model without sufficient credentials or client interviews, but the world could certainly use such a program.

I wonder if such a program could be developed and published as a self directed model, perhaps with support from a specifically created forum, and if there would be a way to promote such an approach without running afoul of the PTB.

Gonzo
 
Time to dispel a few myths.

Methadone is a fantastic drug. It gives genuine people an opportunity to get there life back on track.

Contrary to popular opinion it is not the worst opiate in the world. It has a relatively long half-life which means people on treatment only need to be dosed once per day. So in theory they can get on with leading a normal life. The dose is titrated so the person has limited or no withdrawal. Certainly there is no high involved. A relatively long half-life though has the drawback of a relatively long withdrawal period. This is why people will say methadone is more addictive than heroin. Heroin has a relatively short half-life which is why users can use 4 times per day and not overdose. Correspondingly it has a shorter withdrawal period. The drawback for a government medically supervised opiate program is that people would have to attend a dosing point numerous times per day leaving little time for anything else such as getting a job.

People can also attend methadone clinics for the treatment of chronic pain. Once again people may not want methadone because of the long half-life and correspondingly long withdrawal period when they may wish to reduce off. The reason for putting people on methadone is many chronic pain clients can be on numerous pain medications which increase the risk of overdose and adverse events. By having just one medication, treatment is simplified and hopefully correspondingly simpler. Pain management is an area I know little about but certainly there are advances being made especially in non-pharmacological treatments.

Induction onto a program has in general a few main prerequisites. It is voluntary. A person must be addicted to opiates and an adult. People request to come onto the program or opiate addicted people find themselves in jail or hospital and are put onto the program. No-one is going go out and score for you and bring it into jail or hospital so you don't have to go on methadone.

So, a person is now on the program. In theory that means everyday you will present at the clinic for a supervised dose of methadone. Which means you are tied to the clinic. This is why methadone is known as the liquid handcuffs. You are now on a long-half life opiate and have to be somewhere everyday of the year. As this forum is international there will be differences in programs around the world.

Now I would really like you to pay attention to this. Most people chose to come on the program voluntarily. Whether you stay on it or not is up to you. Go2 it is laughable and insulting to think I have some vested interest in keeping somebody on the program against their will. I have been nothing but supportive and informative to you Davey. I even supplied you with a general guide to reducing off the methadone program on page 2 of this thread. In what way am I keeping you subservient to the system?

I am tired of this area of work. It always seems to be my fault. People tell me all the time. Hopefully in my next job I won't be such a stuff up.
 
I was prescribed methadone for severe pain management a year ago after trying every other tool in the pain specialist tool box and because of tolerance development over nearly two decades to every opiate in the book.

However, I had put it off while I dealt with having to accept how bad my conditions had become and while I researched methadone further. Addiction so some degree is inevitable, although those in pain rarely get to a point where addiction is a problem with respect to drug seeking behaviour.

However, one does have to learn the difference between to pain from disease and the pain created by withdrawal (sneaky brain tries to trick you into taking more by creating the pain signal).

By the time I decided to return to my pain specialist to discuss going on methadone, a new drug application had been approved in the US and Canada - the BuTrans patch, a 7-day transdermal delivery of a previously approved drug, buprenorphine.
The advantage of buprenorphine is that in microgram dosages (which amount to picograms in the system) the drug is an opiate agonist, which means it boosts the potential of other opiates, allowing me to continue with my current and most effective medication, Dilaudid (hydromorphone). What is interesting is that is much higher dosages, buprenorphine becomes an opiate antagonist, meaning it diminishes the potential of opiates. It does this by flooding the opiate receptors, blocking other opiates from being received.

As an antagonist, this drug has been used to take away the effect of opiates from addicts so that their dosing has no benefit. They don't go through as much withdrawal, since the body feels it is receiving opiates.

Although buprenorphine does not provide any sense of high in a transdermal or even oral application, it is still highly addictive.

In addiction treatment, after the user has successfully given up opiates due to their inaction, the buprenorphine is slowly titrated downward, eventually to nothing in the same way that methadone can be downward titrated.

From a pain relief perspective, this drug has been a godsend. Before, I was taking 64 mg of hydromorphone up to 4 times daily. With the patch. I am down to taking 16 mg up to four times daily and usually only 8 mg twice daily.

Unfortunately I just herniated 2 discs in my neck, both of which are compressing nerve roots and causing nauseating pain. I will now have to increase the patch dosage in the hopes that I won't have to increase the hydromorphone.

After eliminating most of my fibromyalgia and rheumatoid arthritis through diet and supplements, my only remaining pain was from nerve root compression in my lower back. Now that my neck has recently joined the ouch club, I am really grateful for the BuTrans patch.

I find this transdermal patch approach quite similar to the methadone concept. Reducing harm and increasing functionality. It is not ideal but it has me earning an income and paying child support.

Gonzo
 
I am curious about go2 as well. As you said it is an imperfect system.I think you have to have some compassion for the work to get in the feild in the first place, i think. I also think it is very easy to get jaded, as i have seen all the real "junkies" always beside me.As with any avenue in life, there are a lotta psycos.
not that i'm not a real junkie.
Gonzo, i agree that the goal is complete abstinence,but right now, being so hard. I will get to the point that i am so wound up that if i didnt do something, i would definately go use something, and if i take one clonazepam "benzodiazepine", i fell fine the next day, and even often for another week.
I think that, as with so many addicts, we want it all right now, and there is no easy quick fix, so as everyone is different, so then should they're treatment be. I seem to be holding my own so far.
 
Hi davey72,

I apologize if I gave the impression that it expected one go cold turkey to do the Work.

Just to clarify...

Like the Work, addiction elimination is a process. Preparation for quitting can be a stage of such process.

The reason I mentioned that the Work requires the elimination of addiction is because one can only go so far before the addiction prevents further identification of buffers, the processing of their related, trapped emotions, and change.

The same goes for food addictions/obsessions and other intense attachments.
As long as the aspect of the self that is over-desiring finds satisfaction, the tantrums it would throw when ungratified are avoided.

Without the tantrum, one will find it difficult to identify and connect with its source.

I also mentioned earlier the concept of the two brains: the one that wants and the one that wills. When the former is gratified, the latter gets weaker. Overgratification will all but kill the will.

One requires great will to do the Work.
Finally, when it comes to mind altering substances, one is cast into a fantasy where the aches and pains of reality can be ignored or completely forgotten. In the fantasy, one might partially access or open themselves up to other domains of existence without adequate preparation this leaves the user vulnerable to all sorts of dangers, including psychic attack and even possession. The damages sustained could limit spiritual, mental and physical growth and development. A lot more can be said about the negative effects drug use can have on the psyche, but, suffice to say, nothing good will come from it and a whole lot of bad may be the end result.

I am glad you are looking to finally be rid of the monkey on your back.

I have had my own journey through addiction, but I don't pretend to have any idea what your journey entails. I do recognize how complex and individual addiction can be.

I hope you continue on your path and may it lead you to health and knowledge through inquiring and sharing, breathing and praying, if it is in you to do so.

May you never forget that the peace of the Divine Cosmic Mind is your peace, his love is your love.

Which reminds me...
I am he
as you are he
as you are me
and we are all together.

Goo goo g'joob,
Gonzo
 
truth seeker said:
Just wondering Go2 if everything is okay? Meaning is there something unrelated that's upsetting you?
Click to expand...

Thank you for asking truth seeker. It seems as if I am more emotional lately. It is hard to type as tears are running down my face. It is as if I am accessing feeling images from previously closed memory. It hurts to live and not just me but all of us. I experience the deep frustration of aaron r as he tries to help addicts. I experience davey72’s tentative steps toward responsibility. I experience gonzo’s desire to create a better treatment. I feel Nienna Eluch reining in the horses. I hear your deeper question. What is causing turbulence in the flow?

On one level I have been having trouble sleeping as I get congested and itchy when I go to bed. I haven’t been able to breathe deeply or use EE for several weeks. I realized yesterday that I put the wool blankets on the bed for the winter cold about two weeks ago. I think I have become allergic to wool. Anyway, I put the wool blankets away and bought a cotton comforter. Perhaps that will normalize my sleep and breathing.

On another level, I work with addicts and alcoholics within a Twelve Step Program. Abstinence is the basis of the Twelve Step approach to recovery from addiction. My identification with the principle of abstinence colored my interactions above. It is my experience sponsoring men, that those who continue to use any mind altering drug do not experience the psychic change necessary to live drug free. It is as if the drugs short circuit the emotional connection to a higher aim than our self-centered instinctual needs.

I am not representing any Twelve Step Program with my words. The position of Narcotics Anonymous and Alcoholics Anonymous is that they have no opinion on this issue. I obviously have experience which leads to the theory that the emotional center is damaged by drugs and alcohol and that restoration of a functioning emotional center is fundamental to recovery. This is my experience and observation up close to the wreckage and ultimately death that result from addiction.

There is another level of my own Work. I am experimenting with emotional content in my some of my posts. This is difficult to control, as I quickly become identified with an emotional charged issue. I am making mistakes. It is not easy to post while the intellectual center and the emotional center are functioning simultaneously. I seem to be too emotional or too intellectual. How can I feel, sense, and think simultaneously?

I want to apologize to aaron r for my upset to become rudeness in our interaction. I want to note that I think gonzo’s ideas of a better system of treating addiction have merit. There is no doubt that diet and breathing facilitate recovery. I might add that a network or group seems to have a magnetic influence on recovery, even as this forum helps me discover error and re balance the thinking and emotional functions necessary to access higher realms of consciousness. I think the acts of courage and compassion on this forum and within Twelve Step Groups form a magnetic influence which makes the often painful work of recovery possible. It is Work.

Thank you davey72 for reminding me that compassion shuts down when I am jaded. I think you have compassion yourself, and that jaded leads both of us to drugs.
 
Hi Go2, thank-you for the apology. I don't feel like I really needed one. I just wanted to point out in my own emotionally charged way that for the most part people of conscience try to put a human face on imperfect systems. Yes I am very frustrated by it. I have no answers, just playing the game as it presents.

I am enormously respectful of the work you do. You voluntarily give of yourself to people in need. No more needs to be said. :)

As an aside, I wonder about differences in addiction for soul potential and OP's. Your thoughts on emotional centers etc could be quite pertinent.

I think the C's would say something like,"Networking is such fun!". I would agree with them but at times I don't like what I see in the mirror. Cheers mate.
 
go2 said:
I work with addicts and alcoholics within a Twelve Step Program. Abstinence is the basis of the Twelve Step approach to recovery from addiction. My identification with the principle of abstinence colored my interactions above.
Click to expand...

It is occasionally said (and Laura says it around here somewhere) that neurosis can be a sign of caring too much. While I am Not implying neurosis, I Am saying your work and discussion participation demonstrates (at least to me) that you obviously care deeply.

Don't forget to take some time for you so you don't get overwhelmed with it all. :)
 
go2 said:
On one level I have been having trouble sleeping as I get congested and itchy when I go to bed. I haven’t been able to breathe deeply or use EE for several weeks. I realized yesterday that I put the wool blankets on the bed for the winter cold about two weeks ago. I think I have become allergic to wool. Anyway, I put the wool blankets away and bought a cotton comforter. Perhaps that will normalize my sleep and breathing.
Click to expand...

Go2, I know from my own experience that not getting enough sleep makes me more emotional. When we are tired, we do not have the control that we do when we are rested. At least this is how it works for me. I have to agree that it is very coincidental that you put the wool blankets on your bed and then got itchy and congested. Hopefully, the change in materials will help in that department.

I am also wondering if you are taking any 5HTP or GABA or melatonin to help you sleep? Have you read the threads in the Diet and Health section regarding these supplements?

go2 said:
On another level, I work with addicts and alcoholics within a Twelve Step Program. Abstinence is the basis of the Twelve Step approach to recovery from addiction. My identification with the principle of abstinence colored my interactions above. It is my experience sponsoring men, that those who continue to use any mind altering drug do not experience the psychic change necessary to live drug free. It is as if the drugs short circuit the emotional connection to a higher aim than our self-centered instinctual needs.

I am not representing any Twelve Step Program with my words. The position of Narcotics Anonymous and Alcoholics Anonymous is that they have no opinion on this issue. I obviously have experience which leads to the theory that the emotional center is damaged by drugs and alcohol and that restoration of a functioning emotional center is fundamental to recovery. This is my experience and observation up close to the wreckage and ultimately death that result from addiction.
Click to expand...

This makes sense as to why you have become so identified with this subject, as has aaron r. When we feel strongly about something, we do have a hard time separating ourselves from what we are so attached to. Maybe looking at this as a challenge to not getting so wrapped up in this area would be a good activity for you. These people have their own lessons to learn. Trying to help them is a very noble thing. And it is a very hard thing. Especially when the system that should be doing their best to help them doesn't really care about them and their recovery at all. And I'm not talking about the people who work at the clinics, but those who make up the rules of what is done and given to these individuals. But, knowing that you can only do so much, that their lives are in their hands, they are the ones to make the choices and then live with the choices they have made, is very important for your own health, both mental and physical.

go2 said:
There is another level of my own Work. I am experimenting with emotional content in my some of my posts. This is difficult to control, as I quickly become identified with an emotional charged issue. I am making mistakes. It is not easy to post while the intellectual center and the emotional center are functioning simultaneously. I seem to be too emotional or too intellectual. How can I feel, sense, and think simultaneously?
Click to expand...

If you are still doing the Beatha part of the EE program, then stop. But continue to do the pipe breathing and POTS. And if you feel like crying, then please do so. Let these emotions out and run their course. There is nothing wrong with doing this. Also, trying to get to the root of the emotions as they come up would help to calm things down.

Have you read the Narcissism Big 5 books yet? This may be another good thing to do.

Keep us posted on what is going on with you go2. And I'm sure that there are others who will have other suggestions for you. :flowers:
 
The only thing I would add to what's been said (this goes for Go2 or anyone reading this) is that you're more than welcome to post in the swamp if you want to talk in more detail and privately. :flowers:
 
davey72 said:
Go2, Hence lies our karmic school. I have recognized this type of philosophies from everyone i have ever spoken with at aadac. Honestly, I think the fact that i am able to take a valium once or twice a week, "without getting kicked off cold turkey because my urine is dirty" is the only thing keeping me sane right now. I am not abusing them, which is new to me. That and the occassional ary-jane cigarette. I am actually doing pretty good now. i think it was due to the fast comedown from the bulk of the dose. I had to normalize. I will be fine if i continue this way. Working also is a key thing.sweat it out.
As far as these links, well i have already looked at all of that many times, but the only thing that doesnt seem to be a load of bs, is the link i was censored for at the beginning of this post. The amino acid therapy, and a few others sound good,"in theory", but how does a layman like me attain all this highly expensive therapy? I would also love to have my blood cleaned out, or rapid detox. I can even have this done ion my city, but i don't ever seem to have an extra 5 grand.
Click to expand...


Good morning davey72,

I'm currently going off of an anti-depressant called cymbalta, using the general outline from the website I mentioned to you earlier in this thread. :) (www.theroadback.org)

The supplements listed for tapering off a medication depends on what kind of drug you are going off of, how long you've been taking it, and what kind of withdrawal symptoms crop up.

To do one of these tapers, its important to lay the ground work before you stop taking any kind of medication. What I did was begin supplementing for the worst of the withdrawal symptoms before reducing the dosage.

I'm lucky in that the worst one is eased by just taking fish oil with the highest EPA content I could find, and using an herb called Passionflower for anxiety. This was cheap compared to what the vendor from the site

above wanted for supplements. (I decided not to go with the ones listed on the Road Back site because many of them contain irritants like gluten, casein, and possibly MSG.)



It sounds to me from what you've said above that you don't think taking supplements will make a difference, and it also seems from what you've said that you want a treatment that works fast.

I've been on cymbalta since it was released for use in 2004, and my doctor put me on the highest possible dose of it. Its done a significant amount of damage in that time, and it isn't going to be repaired in a few

weeks or months. Going slow through the process is worth it for that reason.....to take time to repair and assess the damage.


If you've been on methadone for more than a year, its possible your body is also damaged, and going for a fast option isn't going to spare you the discomfort of that in the long run.

An option is to research a little more into tapering off with supplements by starting while you are still on the methadone program, building up against possible withdrawal symptoms before they start.

Then you can reduce the methadone, and make note of any symptoms that are not taken care of with a supplement, add it, etc.

The point is to go slow and change your eating habits etc to heal your body as you taper off, because your body is not a car...you can't just change the oil and expect it to be fine. ;)



I understand its not easy and that it can be scary, that sometimes you feel like you're going nuts. That is not YOU, its the drug. If you're feeling too bad to keep tapering off, its a sign you need to stop and address

the symptom so it doesn't prevent you from progress.




As I write this, I'm going to be returning to the reduced dosage of the cymbalta and address several digestive issues, build up with the fish oil and probiotics more, and go off the drug again next week.




Slow and steady will see you off a medication or drug permanently, healing your body along the way. Being impatient will only hurt you, osit.
 
Aaron r, this is the question i have been thinking, and not quite saying.I beleive these are the ones," the op's" that make the people trying to help, jaded.
It is sad, but it makes it really difficult for someone like me to hold a job,etc. when even the urine tests are occassionally wrong.they will say i have something in me that i have never touched in my life, and if you try to say anything, then you are a liar too.I have gotten "carries" many times for a week ata time, but then these things that i cannot control happen, and i lose my job; Or i am in another city working and going to a pharmacy out there and there is some mistake and i am stuck out there for a week without it,"while being expected to work.I could go on and on, but i am sure all who have worked in this capacity realize it.
 
davey72 said:
Go2, Hence lies our karmic school. I have recognized this type of philosophies from everyone i have ever spoken with at aadac. Honestly, I think the fact that i am able to take a valium once or twice a week, "without getting kicked off cold turkey because my urine is dirty" is the only thing keeping me sane right now. I am not abusing them, which is new to me. That and the occassional ary-jane cigarette. I am actually doing pretty good now. i think it was due to the fast comedown from the bulk of the dose. I had to normalize. I will be fine if i continue this way. Working also is a key thing.sweat it out.
Click to expand...

Valium and ary-jane cigarettes will certainly calm anyone down and help to feel pretty good! :)

Just be careful about either thing turning into a substitute for the addiction you are trying to kick, it can be pretty subtle at times.

Sorry to rewind the conversation, but I felt that needed to be said, as nobody had mentioned it. How do you know you are really doing fine, if you are still under the influence of multiple mind-altering substances? (this is more of a rhetorical question)

I hope you are still doing well with your path davey72, best wishes. Apologies also for the lateness of my response.
 
Aaron,i totally agree with you about the merits of methadone-----IN AN IDEAL WORLD. These same benefits are also a lot of the drawbacks as well.it is funny how it enables me to work and lead a "normal" life,but it is always the centre itself that makes it impossible to hold down a job.if they got their -hit together, and didnt lump everyone together as junkie losers then maybe it could have worked for me. Hence the learning process, i suppose.
Jason-i'm not really sure how i know i am doing well(considering where i am. I can just feel that i am changing.going through some sort of metamorphosis. I am not the same "garbage can" that i used to be. I always wanted to be free from addiction since i was a little kid, but it is only recently that i feel i can actuazlly do it.
Also,didnt the c's kinda say -ary jane is not that bad? lumped in with melatonin?type of thing?i wish they would let me say the sure fire cure i had found,but they edited it right at the beginning.this is what i would do,if i had the money.
 
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