Putin Recognizes Donbass Republics, Sends Russian Military to 'Denazify' Ukraine

The Prigozhin incident has revealed some inner biases I have developed in the context of the Ukraine/Russia conflict. I've noticed it in certain circumstances before but this has underlined it. It is the old saviour programme, projected onto Putin/Russia, who I unconsciously desire to be the 'goodies' in a childish 'goodies' vs 'baddies' conflict, with Putin as some mythical Christ like figure who is incapable of committing any 'wrong', as I am socially conditioned to perceive 'wrong.'

The manner in which Prigozhin was dispatched was brutal, but it's necessity in the bigger Russian picture initially eluded me. Some sober and insightful comments in this thread have helped adjust my perception in that regard.
 
There is the following information from this TG channel (translated from Russian):

So, the situation with the Wagner group and in Syria has been developing extremely rapidly over the last couple of days. And I would not call the situation anything other than breathtakingly critical. But let's move on to the facts at hand.

As everyone knows Deputy Minister of Defense of the Russian Federation Mr. Yevkurov is now on a tour of Libya and Syria. His stated goals are to fight terrorism and strengthen cooperation. Next will be the same tour in Africa, by happy coincidence, exactly in those places where you know who are based. I will not reveal any secret about the purpose of the visit if I voice what is already being discussed in social networks: Yevkurov has been sent to finish off the Wagner, to replace the conditional Ministry of Defense "PMC" with new ones and to convince the locals to refuse to cooperate. Why persuade the locals? Well, apparently, so that the initiative, as it were, would come from the field.

It is important to note that Yevkurov was sent even before the crash in Tver and his tasks, accordingly, were known even before, as he had time to hold the first meeting with Syrians before the crash, where he voiced everything. If we also compare it with the previous events, namely the total blocking of African logistics through Syria by Wagner (expulsion from Hmeimim, canceling all overflight permits for all flights through Damascus, etc.), the conclusion is obvious. ), then the conclusion is obvious. By the way, in this case our Ministry of Foreign Affairs, or rather our embassy even overdid it, forbidding Syria to accept planes of the Ministry of Defense of the Central African Republic.

That even the USSR in the best years of the Cold War did not allow itself in relation to its allies. This surprised the CAR Foreign Ministry and the Syrians, who, of course, could have ignored it (after all, this is strictly a relationship between the CAR and the SAR), but blocked everything to the Africans just in case.

Anyway, even before the demise of Wagner's leadership, the trend was there. Moreover, after Yevkurov flew to Syria and held a series of meetings with the Syrian military leadership, the Wagner representatives in Syria were urgently summoned to the SAR Defense Minister Abbas, where they were given ultimatums: hand over weapons and equipment, and clear Syria by September 20.

Meanwhile, Yevkurov flew on to Libya, where he met with Haftar and, according to my information, offered the Libyans the same thing, to which the Libyans, agreed, but asked not to hurry.

At this time, the Embraer flies out of Moscow, crashes and the entire Wagner leadership is killed, exacerbating an already difficult situation for Wagner units in Syria and Africa. Yevkurov returns to Syria and meets again with Wagner's Syrian office, this time softening his rhetoric, apparently realizing that the situation is such that escalation will provoke the collapse of the entire security architecture. According to eyewitnesses, representatives of Wagner asked him questions, to which Yevkurov admitted that there is still no first-person decision on who will supervise them, but it will be made soon, and in the meantime they can be recruited into the new PMC and prepare for the inventory of weapons and equipment.

It should be said that the events were developing so rapidly that even the administration of the Syrian president (as they themselves claim) could not keep up with the events, drawing information from the military attaché of the Russian Embassy, who actively lobbied for the above-mentioned ultimatum.
The information began to spread across Syria, causing nervousness among Iranians, as there is a rotation of Americans with unclear intentions just ahead across the Euphrates. And now, according to rumors, today the Iranians came to the local leadership of Wagner, already knowing about the ultimatum and intending to occupy their territories and fields, when the evacuation of Wagner, saying that the Syrians, they say, are aware of it.
 
Regarding the news that Putin demanded from Wagner to swear allegiance to Russia, I searched for the information in Russian and saw that all the sources who shared this in this particular context were liberal or "foreign agents" sources.

There is indeed such a decree. Here's the link to the official governmental site. Here's a link to the Kremlin site.

Unfortunately I am unable to copy or extract the exact wording of the decree and translate it. Maybe one of you will be able to do it. But here's a description from one of the articles about it.

According to the document, it concerns members of volunteer formations and other persons who assist the Russian Armed Forces in carrying out their tasks and participate in the special military operation to protect Donbas. The rule also applies to employees of the special purpose center "Okhrana" in Zaporizhzhya region and other similar state enterprises that are established in the regions during the martial law.

In addition, the specified procedure for taking the oath is also established for citizens who are involved in territorial defense.
 

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Some of the people in high position within the EU and NATO can not hide their arrogance

While the following may be diplomatic enough, the Danish PM and her group have gone to such an extreme, that they have revealed themselves to more people, which is basically a healthy development in a sad situation.

Recently, last weekend, Zelensky came for a visit to Denmark, he was presented with a promise of 19 F-16 planes and had the good luck to sit in the cockpit together with the PM Mette Frederiksen. The day after on Sunday, he appeared in front of the Danish Parliament to a spontanous celebration event. While the fever and pro Ukraine sentiments was reaching the ecstasy levels, more cool heads felt it was off. And several opinion makers joined the criticism, including the satirists:
View attachment 80453
Below the image: The statements about freedom sometime sound a bit hollow.
Left:
PM: Bombs those sh*tty guy back to the Stone Age.
Right:
PM Secretary: Iran has complained about another burning of the Quran. PM: Call them and excuse us, we will do all they are asking for.

Another FB comment:

Regarding Lars Von Trier, The Independent reported:


Now, von Trier has been out to excuse his statement and proclaim that of course he supports Ukraine, but he tried, and the message went around.

Another who showed up was the Lars Hedegaard, who since years has been a strong critic of Islam, but whether one agrees or not, here he talks mostly argues against the Danish support for Ukraine.

Of course many more guns and money, even people may get involved, but some people have begun to ask themselves questions, and that is progress.

i highly appreciate lars von trier.
indeed, russian lives ALSO matter, as ALL lives matter
some see ukraine as victim, but the "victim" is also guilty.
if we were as civilized as we claim, this disagreement between belligerants should have been settled by negotiation and honest recognition of history, and NOT by war.
war never resolves a differend.
in a christmas choral it is said: peace to people of good will.
 
There is the following information from this TG channel (translated from Russian):
Thank you for sharing. Could one exclude a third force destabilizing a difficult situation, by downing the plane? Surely some in the "Western partners" must have had an idea, so many changes can not go unnoticed.

Tracing an agent in the information war against Russia, and weeding through some TG posts
Nashalenta.com
Is a AM station, sending from Lithuania 1557 kHz. private sponsors
'Dutch' Radio Pravda started on AM from Lithuania
10 augustus 2022 - 09:16
On Friday, August 5 at 17:00 UTC “Radio Pravda” started broadcasting on AM 1557 from Sitkunai in Lithuania. The station, also known as “Nasha Lenta” (Our Band), provides independent information in Russian to Russia and Belarus and is fully funded by private donors.

There are no political motives and no involvement of any government, including financial ones. “All that matters is the free flow of uncensored, verified information to Russia and Belarus.”
No political motives, that contradicts very much what they write about themselves, but more on that later:
The transmitter used in Lithuania is the Nautel RX50 previously used by Big L on AM 1395 kHz from Trintelhaven in the Netherlands, in an attempt to reach an audience in England during the day. Later this transmitter was used on 1008 kHz to broadcast the religious station Groot Nieuws Radio. Since the closure of the 1008 kHz, the transmitter has been stored in the Netherlands.

In recent weeks, hard work has been done to get the full 50 kilowatts in the air on AM 1557. This also required a new antenna design.

The results are phenomenal. The signal on AM 1557 can be received well throughout Europe at night. There is a strong night signal in cities such as Saint Petersburg, Moscow and Minsk and it also covers the entire territory of Ukraine.

Even on Russia's border with Norway in the Arctic, the signal is still quite good, as well as in Novosibirsk, which is about 1,500 kilometers from the transmitter site. (HK)
Wrong, Novosibirsk is 3670 km from the sender town!
Elsewhere I found:
Radio Prawda - Uncensored program in Russian for Russia - Radio Truth - Radio Wahrheit für Russland

Since April, the 9th we broadcast an uncensored program in Russian for people in Russia. Our mission is the truth. We broadcast on shortwave over the virtual fence of censorship, lies and government restriction. The programs will be broadcast on shortwave. It is possible to receive that program with the simplest Radio and the listener is not exposed to the risk of being tracked.

The internet is becoming more and more restricted and sometimes at risk for the Russian people. They could not order foreign VPN provider due the sanctions anymore. To listen to a radio is without any risk for the user.

Right now, uncensored news in Russia is essential. We draw our motivation from these experiences and see it as a social responsibility to act.
They are actually right about ordinary radio being more anonymous. People in the West should take that to heart too.
They continue:
We are a group of perfectional and native speaking journalist from Russia, Ukraine, and Germany – as well as experts, technicians etc. In addition to our program on shortwave we are active on YouTube:
[...]
In an update, they are very straight forward.
Report on our activities so far, and our plans ahead.
A year ago we asked you to help us shorten the Russian war of aggression on Ukraine. You had nothing but our promise, and you trusted us.

Today, after a year, thanks to your help, we look back on an effective information campaign: 63 interviews with leading experts in their field: politicians, economists, military experts, psychologists, media people who are well-known in Russia. People who professionally, competently and understandably convey the truth to our Russian listeners in their language.

https://www.youtube.com/@user-ry3ks8or9o/videos

We did put your and our money where our mouth was.

But the war in Ukraine is still raging, even if hardly anyone believes in a "successful" end of the Russian "special military operation" anymore.

[...]

We want to double our broadcasts per week, add 2 replays per weeks at times when Russian soldiers and recruits in the treches in Ukraine can listen and add a transmission station in the UK to protect and improve reception quality in the Russian Federation and in Ukraine (to Russian soldiers).

The cost (without a cent of profit!) for a month is ca. € 10.000.

Imagine, only e.g. 20.000 Russian soldiers, recruits, mothers, fathers, brothers and sisters, children withdraw their support from Putin's regime! This is much more than one Himars missile, which, unfortunately, the Ukrainian soldiers still need, can achieve. And one (1!) Himars missile costs with USD 150.000 more than our campaign for a whole year...

Please check the attached video for a report on our activities so far, and our plans ahead.

Here is our request:

Please again join us bringing the truth to Russia - without endangering the recipients!

Help us to demotivate Russian recruits and soldiers!

[..]
So that is a western propaganda channel for you, that still proclaims that its "mission is the truth" and that "There are no political motives and no involvement of any government, including financial ones."

They have a TG channel, an odd mix of some truth that is helpful, with small needles, true probably, but in the overall context, misrepresenting and above all demoralizing. Anyway going through the posts, there are also some that gives details of the crash, for each there are videos:
Found and translated from nashalentacom
According to preliminary data from our source, it was in the area of the landing gear that an explosion occurred in the sky — as a result, the wing was torn off, which hit the stabilizer, because of this, the business jet began to climb sharply, and then went into a tailspin. From the explosive depressurization, all those on board instantly lost consciousness, so the pilots could not report an emergency. In any case, it was not possible to save the ship without a wing and stabilizer.

It was because of the explosion in the sky that the tail section of the aircraft fell five kilometers from the fuselage, the newspaper writes.

There is a version that this is the work of Ukrainian intelligence…

[...]
If the passengers lost consciousness immediately, it was somehow a pretty humane death.
НАША ЛЕНТА (image)
The only girl who died on Prigozhin's plane is 39-year-old stewardess Kristina Raspopova

Kristina used to live in Moscow, but some time ago she got a job at the company "MNT Aero" and moved to live in St. Petersburg. Prior to that, she also worked in business aviation.

A few hours before departure, the girl told her family that for some reason their flight was delayed. Before departure, she posted a photo from the airport cafe.

Kristina herself is the sister of Yevgeny Raspopov, Deputy Prosecutor of Yemanzhelinsk, Chelyabinsk region.
[...]
НАША ЛЕНТА (has a video)
The wing and landing gear of Yevgeny Prigozhin's business jet were found

They collapsed 3 kilometers from the crash site
. They were taken from the Ladyzhenka River, near the Kuzhenkino railway station. A few hundred meters from the place where the tail of the plane was found.

This confirms the version that the plane fell apart in flight.
On one video, the engines seem to run until the end, so if it was explosives, they would have to be placed in such a way, that the engines and the fuel supply were not damaged enough to not function.
 
The Prigozhin incident has revealed some inner biases I have developed in the context of the Ukraine/Russia conflict. I've noticed it in certain circumstances before but this has underlined it. It is the old saviour programme, projected onto Putin/Russia, who I unconsciously desire to be the 'goodies' in a childish 'goodies' vs 'baddies' conflict, with Putin as some mythical Christ like figure who is incapable of committing any 'wrong', as I am socially conditioned to perceive 'wrong.'

The manner in which Prigozhin was dispatched was brutal, but it's necessity in the bigger Russian picture initially eluded me. Some sober and insightful comments in this thread have helped adjust my perception in that regard.

It is indeed interesting to read how this debate has rolled back and forth and the many assumptions that underpin our preferences. As you say goodies vs baddies has no place in an adult world where even the very best humanity can produce here is still only to reach the status of an STO candidate. And sometimes perhaps that STO status might derive from actions that enforce death on others. The idea that Putin has done what he has done over the past 25 years without leaving a trail of collateral damage and even calculated casualties is beyond naive - all we have to do is think about what he inherited, what has been thrown at him, who he has had to oppose along the way as he fought for the greater good of the powerless. A saint would last 5 minutes running and sustaining the Great Bear in such a world (as an example, in these terms Stalin can be seen as the necessary force for good being the only one fit enough to face off and defeat the greater evil implicit in the STS plans of the 3rd Reich). How else has Putin managed to forge from fire and blood a new nation from the ashes, out lasting along the way the Consortium, CIA, MI5, Mossad, oligarchs, organized crime, rebellions, terrorism, economic warfare, etc, etc - indeed everything that psychopathy can throw at him - so don't let us fall into the trap of believing he has survived all this by being a non-human saint. To have done this takes someone who can bear the burden of seemingly impossibly harsh choices without losing one ounce of personal power, grace and determination. Reminds one of course of the paradox of Caesar and his wars of conquest leaving an ocean of blood in his wake being at the same time the model for the Christed one. When Putin ordered the SMO and fully, finally crossed his own personal Rubicon, he must have known that by so doing he was opening up the possibility of 100s of thousands of 'murders' and 'suicides' on his say so. He hoped it would not be necessary and perhaps he underestimated his foe, but don't tell me he didn't regard it as a serious possibility - even a likelihood - whilst making his calculation. So the idea he wouldn't or couldn't order the deaths of 10 more people, including those who just happened to be there, is absurd. When Putin uses the term 'the greater good' or the 'common purpose' he clearly believes this to be his overriding necessity and to know that includes being willing to do things that you and I could simply not contemplate.

At present I still lean to it being other actors but purely on the basis that at this particular time their need was perhaps more pressing and gratuitous, hence the terroristic choice of means - but if it turns out to be Putin/Kremlin it won't matter a jot to me. The Prigozhin affair is that of a gnat being swatted in a jungle; I care for the jungle itself and I trust Putin to do whatever is needed to maintain it in some kind of harmony and balance. If that entails taking out an annoying gnat whatever way he sees fit then I bow to his better judgement - because he knows all of the jungle and its workings, top to bottom - we here merely a snap shot from high above the safety of the canopy.
 
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There is no doubt that Putin is capable of murder, or to order someone to be killed. But, this Russia is not Yeltsin's Russia of the 1990's. This Russia is a state of a law. Thankfully to Putin. Much more than any other western country. So, I highly doubt that Putin "dealt" with Prigozhin in this way. There were numerous other, legal ways to be done. If Putin didnt killed Prigozhin immediatelly after his lilttle coup, there was no sense in that afterwards. Wagner was not a problem for Putin (Russia state) anymore, because they already agreed to work under the ministry of defence of Russia.

This smells on the West alone (cia, mi6, mossad, the french) not even Ukrainians. All the rest is just west's media wishful thinking.
 
There is no doubt that Putin is capable of murder, or to order someone to be killed. But, this Russia is not Yeltsin's Russia of the 1990's. This Russia is a state of a law. Thankfully to Putin. Much more than any other western country. So, I highly doubt that Putin "dealt" with Prigozhin in this way. There were numerous other, legal ways to be done. If Putin didnt killed Prigozhin immediatelly after his lilttle coup, there was no sense in that afterwards. Wagner was not a problem for Putin (Russia state) anymore, because they already agreed to work under the ministry of defence of Russia.

This smells on the West alone (cia, mi6, mossad, the french) not even Ukrainians. All the rest is just west's media wishful thinking.
That is my bet on this matter as well.
 
There is the following information from this TG channel (translated from Russian):
This information strongly suggests that the MoD adapted to an unexpected situation, which fits with the 'rogue element' scenario. It also highlights that this took place in a way which inconvenienced the Russian leadership; if they had given the order, a different approach and timing most likely would have been taken.

The following appeared on TG on August 25 with a video: Xoaquin FIores - New Resistance
If the pilot/owner of the plane has indeed gone on the run, this possibly points toward him arranging, possibly unknowingly, to have saboteurs board the plane under the guise of "potential buyers" prior to the flight. Yet, if he was a dupe, it means someone was observing Prigozhin's movements very closely while waiting for the right opportunity, which suggests intelligence agency-level expertise.

If so, what sort of "rogue element" was it? An external one, or an internal one? No doubt there would have been plenty of patriotic operatives who would have been very annoyed with Prig after the deaths of Russian airmen during the 'coup'. Combine that with a perceived mandate from above, whether real or not, and somebody, or a few somebodies, may have decided to settle a score, thinking they would be well protected from any follow up investigation.

Slowly, it seems more details are emerging.
 
That Putin would say this, at this time, speaks volumes IMO, and speaks directly to Prigozhin's fate. The point being, IMO, Prig and others in Wagner, were not loyal to Russia.




So what the facts here. There obviously has been a long-standing dispute between the Kremlin and Wagner, essentially concerning who is the leader of Wagner, and to whom do they ultimately answer and pay allegiance to? That's what the 'argument' over the official incorporation of Wagner into the Russian military was about. Prig and Co. were NOT inclined to give up their 'free lance' status: too much freedom, too much personal enrichment to be had. But that obviously cannot be allowed to continue by any serious govt. and it's military; to have an entire regiment, nominally working for the Russian military and following military and govt. orders, but in effect doing whatever it wants when it do chooses.

So back in March and April, Prig goes on camera calling Shoigu a pedophile (and other names) and accusing the MOD of being responsible for the deaths of Wagner members (that Prig was standing in front of in his video). This is followed by his abortive "mutiny", during which he (Wagner heads) thought it was fine to shoot down Russian planes, killing military personnel. Clearly the guy is, at least partly, deranged.

The "mutiny" situation was resolved quickly however, and Prig and co were "allowed" to go to Belarus "into exile". But clearly that didn't last long. Since then, it seems it's been "business as usual", with Prig and Wagner heads spotted at official diplomatic events in Africa and also, most recently, on the ground in an African country. In addition, it appears there has been no restriction on their flight to and from and within Russia.

So the situation seems pretty clear: Wagner under Prig and co. were not going to accept any "demands" by the Kremlin that they give up their freelance status, and demonstrated a willingness to 'double down' and directly challenge Putin's authority. It's not difficult to imagine that the Kremlin was left with little choice but to deal with Prig and co. in the only way that Prig and co. themselves left open...

After reading the comments on the following thread regarding the Prigojin demise the impression i get is that you have a "free lance" private military organization with an ambitious, narcissistic leader which IS USING the military operation in Ukraine as a pretext to increase his own power and influence within the Russian power circles as well as abroad like in Middle East and Africa for his own benefits.

Now imagine being in the shoes of Putin: you're dealing with a military operation in Ukraine which is basically a covert war against Russia by the western powers, you have to take into account also the russians level of morale and support, you have to be extremely careful and ready to deal with the 5th columnists ready to strike when they have the opportunity to do so, you have the whole world watching how you're dealing with all this pressure coming from within your own country and from without and on top of that you have also a rogue paramilitary unit headed by a wildcard of a leader who ALREADY rebelled against his own country thus betraying any bit of trust you could have in him as a patriot, as a trusted partner.

You give him the chance to redeem himself by sending him into exile, he keeps instead to act as usual, actually through his whereabouts he begins to pose a serious threat to the Russia's reputation abroad, in Middle East and Africa where Russia tries to make economic, political and military ties with the local governments, at the same time you're seriously risking to loose the respect and the trust of your own people, within the government and within the country. The message you're sending within and without being that you're too weak to handle an internal threat therefore you're not to be trusted or relied upon. The weak leader usually is being disposed off sooner rather than later, from within or from without.

At least that's my impression on the whole Wagner/Prigojin saga.
 
There is no doubt that Putin is capable of murder, or to order someone to be killed. But, this Russia is not Yeltsin's Russia of the 1990's. This Russia is a state of a law. Thankfully to Putin. Much more than any other western country. So, I highly doubt that Putin "dealt" with Prigozhin in this way. There were numerous other, legal ways to be done. If Putin didnt killed Prigozhin immediatelly after his lilttle coup, there was no sense in that afterwards. Wagner was not a problem for Putin (Russia state) anymore, because they already agreed to work under the ministry of defence of Russia.

This smells on the West alone (cia, mi6, mossad, the french) not even Ukrainians. All the rest is just west's media wishful thinking.
Yes, and we should not forget that on this plane at least 3 out of 10 passengers were civilians. Would Putin have them on his conscience?
 
Yes, and we should not forget that on this plane at least 3 out of 10 passengers were civilians. Would Putin have them on his conscience?

Sorry if I‘ve missed it, but where can we find an official listing of everyone on board, and possibly their status (military and/or civilians)?
 
Sorry if I‘ve missed it, but where can we find an official listing of everyone on board, and possibly their status (military and/or civilians)?

In English, this list to my knowledge has not change since first released:

23.08.23. Untitledcon2c.jpg

All the talk about Prigozhin tends to over look Dimitry Utkin after whom the Wagner organization was named (being his call sign) and Valeriy Chekalov who was deputy commander and regarded as the brains behind Wagner's logistics and network management. There are those who say he is more irreplaceable than even Utkin - with Prigozhin a distant third.
 
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