Quinton Plasma/Water, or "percutaneous hydrotomy"

Chu

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Okay, call me intrigued! I have osteoarthritis, and just yesterday had new CT scans to see if my surgeon wants to do yet another fusion (L4/L5, and possibly my sacroiliac joint). The pain leaves me moving back and forth from couch to bed endlessly trying to find a position that isn’t agony. I detest the OxyContin (which doesn’t seem to help anyway). Acupuncture works somewhat, but only for a few hours. I think the supplements I take (curcumin, etc) help, but it’s difficult to gauge. Breathing and meditation help, but only with pain relief, not with activity. My pain is about a 7-8 as I type this, and is also the cause of my insomnia and short sleep duration, which exacerbates everything, like a feedback loop.

I checked out the Quinton water (liquid and capsules) online, and the cost is way above my means. I seriously doubt my insurance has even heard of the stuff, much less covers treatment ( though I could be wrong). I could probably swing a month of the capsules, but I have to ask if such a limited use would be worthwhile. Thoughts?
Do you live in the US, or somewhere else? Check here to see if there are any practitioners close to you: Liste des praticiens formés à l’hydrotomie percutanée ┃ Société Internationale d'Hydrotomie Percutanée

From my limited experience, I think that in your case, the injections would benefit you a great deal, but that taking Quinton water orally wouldn't do much and may not be worth the expense if it is beyond your means right now.

I'm very sorry to hear about your troubles, Evster. Take care and don't despair, maybe there is another way.
 

Evster2012

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Do you live in the US, or somewhere else? Check here to see if there are any practitioners close to you: Liste des praticiens formés à l’hydrotomie percutanée ┃ Société Internationale d'Hydrotomie Percutanée

From my limited experience, I think that in your case, the injections would benefit you a great deal, but that taking Quinton water orally wouldn't do much and may not be worth the expense if it is beyond your means right now.

I'm very sorry to hear about your troubles, Evster. Take care and don't despair, maybe there is another way.
Thanks Chu. I’m in the U.S., so basically I’m stuck between a rock and a sore place. I’m not one for despair, I just keep chugging along and reading incessantly. Knowledge is power, and there’s great power to be found here! ;-)
 

Gaby

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Laura

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In the US they call this Mesotherapy. A form at the bottom of the link here:
Mesotherapy for Pain Management & Sports Medicine

allows you to search for a practitioner.

I don't know how it would work in the US, but in France, the procedures can be done either by a doctor, or a nurse who has been trained and certified in the protocol and who takes the prescription from a DR and does the job, or accepts patients on her own.

It would be nice if that was the way it works (or could work) in the US because a number of nurses could be trained and open their own practice; I think they would have plenty of patients!

The US is also using it a lot for cosmetic applications:
Mesotherapy Specialist

The thing is, it is really easy to do with a little training, and theoretically, a husband or wife could do the basic treatment on their partner. They would just need to have the right equipment which consists of the ampoules of isotonic Quinton, the precise kind of disposable needles and disposable syringes. I've heard that insulin syringes with their tiny needles work in a pinch.

Pain relief is pretty quick, sometimes after the first treatment, or at least by the third (depends on type of pain and cause). And this comes from just injecting something like 2 ml/cc of Quinton at each site producing a "button" that looks like a bug bite or something. Well, they do a string of these "buttons" along the spine on both sides of it, close to it, and sometimes, if there is enough flesh, right on it. But since the tiny (4 mm) needle can't go any deeper than about right in the mid layer of the skin, it can't hurt anything.

I've been told that there is an upper limit of how many buttons you ought to have at a given session, something like a maximum of 250 ml of Quinton. But when I go for the drip treatment, I get over 500 ml of solution dripped in over an hour, so don't know about that 250 ml thing. Probably a useful precaution, though. 250 at 2 ml per site would be 125 injection sites!!! That's a lot. But if you do along the spine about 2 to 3 inches apart, you can get quite a few buttons on there! And they often go right up into the hairline at the top of the neck. The therapist has even put buttons all over my sacrum!

The really weird thing is that SOME sites along the spine (and elsewhere) are like wood and don't want to accept the injection. Our therapist actually has calluses on her fingers from so often having to really push the syringe plunger hard to get the water to go in! And usually, those are the places that need it most. And she is always careful to not push hard on the skin, but to make the force go between the plunger and the little handles of the syringe by squeezing. In this way, she is able to get the water in, though it goes slowly.

From my own experience, I'm convinced that treatment along the spine also helps the organ systems of the body that are fed by the nerves that exit the spine in the locations being treated so it might be a good idea to just do the whole spine for systemic issues maybe once a year or something.

I guess from the above, you can figure out that the reason the therapy is not widely promoted is because, in the end, it is so cheap. If a person buys the hypertonic solution and dilutes it with distilled water to make isotonic, has their own disposable needles and syringes, they could get cured of a whole host of pains and miseries for really cheap! Surgeons would be out of business!
 

Chu

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I've been told that there is an upper limit of how many buttons you ought to have at a given session, something like a maximum of 250 ml of Quinton. But when I go for the drip treatment, I get over 500 ml of solution dripped in over an hour, so don't know about that 250 ml thing. Probably a useful precaution, though. 250 at 2 ml per site would be 125 injection sites!!! That's a lot.
Oh yes! And as far as I understood, the warning is about using Quinton water alone. 250ml of Quinton water maximum, to avoid getting a fever or too strong a reaction. But even that is a lot!

When the nurse does the drip, there is actually 500ml of Sodium Chloride, and only about 50ml of Quinton, plus the other ingredients depending on the protocol. So, I don't think it has to do with the volume (the body can take a lot), but with going gently with the Quinton water in order to promote healing without stressing the system too much.
 

Ant22

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In case any UK peeps are interested in a UK supplier, I buy the isotonic solution in 1000ml bottles from this seller: Biocean® Isotonic, 1000ml of drinkable seawater (aka Quinton Isotonic)

Some of the websites linked here don't seem to ship to the UK so I thought I'd share it. They have pretty good reviews on Trust Pilot: Aggressive Health Reviews - Read 503 Genuine Customer Reviews | aggressivehealthshop.com

I bought the same brand (Biocean) back in August from a French seller and the quality of this one seems the same.
 

Ant22

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Then, the autohemotherapy. After a month of that, I felt a definite improvement and I think it was very supplemental to the stem cell therapy, though I think that autohemotherapy is also pretty much like stem cell therapy.

I've been interested in autohemotherapy since I read Gaby's article here: Autohemotherapy – Re-Activating Your Body's Natural Capacity To Heal | The Health Matrix

The trouble is that I can't find anyone where I live who does it - or would be willing to do it. I even started to consider doing a phlebotomy course to learn to do it myself, but it doesn't teach me how to inject it.

However, I do have a nurse with over 40 years of experience in my family and I was wondering whether it would be a good idea to ask her to teach me how to collect blood and inject it where it needs to be? Is this procedure something that I would be able to do to myself? Or is it too unsafe or complex?
 

Gaby

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From my own experience, I'm convinced that treatment along the spine also helps the organ systems of the body that are fed by the nerves that exit the spine in the locations being treated so it might be a good idea to just do the whole spine for systemic issues maybe once a year or something.
This chart gives a pretty good idea:



Experimenting with acupuncture points in the back might also be interesting. We discussed earlier in this thread how some nurses did precisely that.
 

Laura

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We don't talk about it much because we don't want people to go off half-cocked and do something unsafe or get in trouble with authorities, but if you have a nurse friend or family member who can assist you with autohemotherapy or as it is sometimes called "autovaccination", it really is amazing.

It's quick, pretty much painless, practically free and often a miracle.

According to all I've read about it, it is nowadays sometimes resorted to as the last thing to try on someone who is dying, and then they get better, so the author posed the question why wasn't it done first? Well, we know why: practically free.
 

Ant22

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We don't talk about it much because we don't want people to go off half-cocked and do something unsafe or get in trouble with authorities, but if you have a nurse friend or family member who can assist you with autohemotherapy or as it is sometimes called "autovaccination", it really is amazing.

It's quick, pretty much painless, practically free and often a miracle.

According to all I've read about it, it is nowadays sometimes resorted to as the last thing to try on someone who is dying, and then they get better, so the author posed the question why wasn't it done first? Well, we know why: practically free.

Thanks for this Laura, the trouble is that the family member lives in a different country so I won't get to see her until Christmas. The article talks about getting it done weekly for a couple of months and that's why I was considering getting her to teach me. Otherwise I'd get two shots in December and then maybe two more over Easter.

In the video Gaby posted the doctor is using both hands but I found one of someone doing it to themselves. I can't say it looks easy, especially that I always look away when a nurse draws my blood. If the family member agrees to help me, I'll make sure to do the first one under her supervision becuase I certainly wouldn't like to end up with ripped veins.


 

Gaby

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This chart gives a pretty good idea:
This one is useful too:


It is the autonomic nervous system. I remember that a young man with urinary incontinence after a car accident was going to be treated in the lower back. The sympathetic branches going to the bladder start at L3 and they constrict, preventing urinary incontinence. However, research (2001) shows it is not so cut or dry because the sympathetic fibers might start as early as T10:



However, the schema from the classic Netter Atlas might still give a pretty good idea of the sympathetic branches.

For autonomic nervous system imbalances in general, there's a stress protocol with 5 points: one on each side of the temple, base of throat, left side of the chest bone on top of the heart and solar chakra:

Screenshot_2018-10-30 L'hydrotomie percutanée à visée thérapeutique - YouTube.png

Screenshot taken from:
[explanation in French starts at minute 27]

There's more information on the autonomic nervous system and its imbalances in the polyvagal research including "Healing Developmental Trauma" and the Éiriú Eolas introduction.
 

aurore

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Bonjour,

I was wondering if food-grade microfiltered seawater in a 5 litres plastic can (which is hypertonic water) could be a good alternative to glass bottles?

By transferring it into glass bottles upon receipt. This would significantly reduce the cost per liter. Which could cost something like less than 6 € / liter shipping included for France for example.
 

Jenn

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In case any UK peeps are interested in a UK supplier, I buy the isotonic solution in 1000ml bottles from this seller: Biocean® Isotonic, 1000ml of drinkable seawater (aka Quinton Isotonic)

Some of the websites linked here don't seem to ship to the UK so I thought I'd share it. They have pretty good reviews on Trust Pilot: Aggressive Health Reviews - Read 503 Genuine Customer Reviews | aggressivehealthshop.com

I bought the same brand (Biocean) back in August from a French seller and the quality of this one seems the same.
FWIW I just found it a little cheaper here: Biocean Isotonic 1000 ml order online.

Thanks for the fascinating discussion everyone, I'm amazed by the positive results people are already having. The last couple of days I've been looking into further training that would enable me to provide this kind of therapy to the public. Mesotherapy training in the UK is pretty popular, although, most state that to inject people you need to be either a nurse, doctor, dentist or pharmacist, so I would only be able to do the "cosmetic microneedling" course :thdown: which is not the same thing at all!
 

Adaryn

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FWIW I just found it a little cheaper here: Biocean Isotonic 1000 ml order online.
On this site (already mentioned in this thread), you can get 1000 ml of hypertonic water for 20,90€ (you can make your own isotonic water by diluting it with mineral water: 1 part of hypertonic + 2 parts of mineral water). They ship worldwide. I enquired about the shipping costs: for 1 box of 6 bottles, the shipping costs are 36 € for Germany, 34 € for the UK and 62€ for the US.
 
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