Quotes

[ROEL]

It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society. - Jiddu Krishnamurti.

 

[Soluna]

I dreamed last night, of speaking with someone named Ian - or Iain, Banks. It was through a computer, but I was listening to their voice, but they were drawing on the computer too and I could see they were 'drawing' a sunset. We were talking about Scotland, and the things either of us might like about it.

When I woke up, I thought I might google the name as it stood out. The first hit - was of course Iain M. Banks - which hadn't (when I awoke) occurred to me. I have read some of his work in the past, and I didn't even realise he was a Scottish author living in Scotland.

Anyhow I read through his Wikipedia page, and some interesting quotes popped up by him which I thought I would share :

"The Universe says simply, but with every possible complication, 'Existence' and it neither pressures us nor draws us out, except as we allow. It all boils down to nothing, and where we have the means and will to fix our reference within that flux, then there we are. Let me be part of that outrageous chaos… and I am."

"In all the human societies we have ever reviewed, in every age and in every state, there has seldom if ever been a shortage of eager young males prepared to kill and die to preserve the security, comfort and prejudices of their elders, and what you call heroism is just an expression of this fact; there is never a scarcity of idiots."

“It swelled in him then, like some wildfire cancer; a rapid disgust, a
total allergy syndrome directed at everything around him; at the
filthy, eviscerated mundanity of it all, the sheer crawling awfulness
of existence; all the lies and the pain, the legalized murder, the
privileged theft, the genocides and the hatreds and the stupefying
human cruelties, all the starveling beauty of the burgeoning poor and
the crippled in body and brain, all the life defying squalor of the
cities and the camps, all the sweltering frenetics of the creeds and
faiths, all the torturingly ingenious, carefully civilized savagery of
the technology of pain and the economics of greed: all the hollow,
ringing, bullshitting words used to justify and explain the utter
howling grief of our own cruelty and stupidity...”

- quote from "Walking on Glass"

 

[engagedinattempting]

The men and women who do not like men and women are in the saddle and will ride mankind."

Clifton Fadiman, 1946, from "Portrait of a Misanthrope"; introduction to The Collected Writings of Ambrose Bierce

 

[bngenoh]

My kind of people these Celts:

Do not stand at my grave and weep,
I am not there, I do not sleep.
I am the thousand winds that blow...
I am the diamond glints on snow
I am the sunlight on ripened grain :O
I am the gentle autumn rain.
When you waken in the morning's hush,
I am the swift uplifting rush
Of gentle birds in circling flight
I am the soft star that shines at night.
Do not stand at my grave and cry
I am not there, I did not die​

Let's change the grain bit:

Do not stand at my grave and weep,
I am not there, I do not sleep.
I am the thousand winds that blow
I am the diamond glints on snow
I am the shinning light on saturated fat, that doesn't fatten you like a nain
I am the gentle autumn rain, that washes you and does not bring you pain.
When you waken in the morning's hush,
I am the swift uplifting rush
Of gentle birds in circling flight
I am the soft star that shines at night.
Do not stand at my grave and cry
I am not there, I did not die​

 

[Denis]

My kind of people these Celts:

Do not stand at my grave and weep,
I am not there, I do not sleep.
I am the thousand winds that blow...
I am the diamond glints on snow
I am the sunlight on ripened grain :O
I am the gentle autumn rain.
When you waken in the morning's hush,
I am the swift uplifting rush
Of gentle birds in circling flight
I am the soft star that shines at night.
Do not stand at my grave and cry
I am not there, I did not die​

Let's change the grain bit:

Do not stand at my grave and weep,
I am not there, I do not sleep.
I am the thousand winds that blow
I am the diamond glints on snow
I am the light on shining fat, that doesn't fatten you like a nain
I am the gentle autumn rain, that washes you and does not bring you pain.
When you waken in the morning's hush,
I am the swift uplifting rush
Of gentle birds in circling flight
I am the soft star that shines at night.
Do not stand at my grave and cry
I am not there, I did not die​

Hi bngenoh.

I noticed that you have the custom to change and/or add the words in quotes that you do not like. One of the examples (apart from your last post in this thread) is this:

My friends, I see in your eyes the same fear that would take the heart of me. A day may come, when the courage of humanity fails, when we forsake our friends, and break all bonds of fellowship, but it is NOT this day. An hour of wolves and shattered shields, when the age of humanity comes crashing down, but it is NOT THIS DAY! This day we FIGHT!! By all that you hold dear, on this good Earth, I bid you STAND, WARRIORS OF THE EARTH!!!!!

The above quote ends with "Men of the West" as opposed to your "WARRIORS OF THE EARTH". You've mentioned that you always felt that that quote is incomplete, and so you've changed it as you saw fit. I don't think that particular quote is incomplete when you take the context of the message into the equation. If you don't like some words in the quote why don't you simply make your own, that will be to your liking?
What I wanted to say is: do you (ANY one of us) really have the right to change and/or add the words in certain quotes left by others (whether they are still among the living or not) just because you don't like how they sound or because you feel that they are "incomplete"?

 

[bngenoh]

Hi bngenoh.

I noticed that you have the custom to change and/or add the words in quotes that you do not like. One of the examples (apart from your last post in this thread) is this:

My friends, I see in your eyes the same fear that would take the heart of me. A day may come, when the courage of humanity fails, when we forsake our friends, and break all bonds of fellowship, but it is NOT this day. An hour of wolves and shattered shields, when the age of humanity comes crashing down, but it is NOT THIS DAY! This day we FIGHT!! By all that you hold dear, on this good Earth, I bid you STAND, WARRIORS OF THE EARTH!!!!!

The above quote ends with "Men of the West" as opposed to your "WARRIORS OF THE EARTH". You've mentioned that you always felt that that quote is incomplete, and so you've changed it as you saw fit. I don't think that particular quote is incomplete when you take the context of the message into the equation. If you don't like some words in the quote why don't you simply make your own, that will be to your liking?
What I wanted to say is: do you (ANY one of us) really have the right to change and/or add the words in certain quotes left by others (whether they are still among the living or not) just because you don't like how they sound or because you feel that they are "incomplete"?

You're completely right, in the context of the black gate, that quote was complete. I generalized it in a way that would speak to all humans, whether man, woman, child, from the West or East, etc, it is a powerful quote and I felt that it could rally more than just the sons of Gondor & Rohan ;)

As to whether or not we have the right to change the words in certain quotes left by others, whether alive or not. I would say we have about as much right as anyone who writes a textbook, ie the more that is learned we find out just how little is known. The context for that which is spoken is multifactorial, one has to take account of the age in which the speaker operated, the knowledge the speaker had, etc. That's why I leave the original quotes as they are, in order to provide a reference, and change it in a way that has meaning to the information, knowledge, and understanding that I have, in this point in my development. I hope I was clear, and if I wasn't ask away.

 

[Denis]

As to whether or not we have the right to change the words in certain quotes left by others, whether alive or not. I would say we have about as much right as anyone who writes a textbook, ie the more that is learned we find out just how little is known.

You really think so? So, if someone writes a diary and shares it with others so they can read it, you would change certain parts of it because you don't find them to be "knowledgeable" enough? Wouldn't that be disrespectful towards the author, editing out certain parts without asking him/her for the permission to do that?
And, if by chance, you DID find logical fallacies in the person's diary, wouldn't there be a better approach to correct his/her oversights?
What does "the more that is learned we find out just how little is known" have to do with taking quotes out of context?

The context for that which is spoken is multifactorial, one has to take account of the age in which the speaker operated, the knowledge the speaker had, etc. That's why I leave the original quotes as they are, in order to provide a reference, and change it in a way that has meaning to the information, knowledge, and understanding that I have, in this point in my development. I hope I was clear, and if I wasn't ask away.

Why not simply make your own quote so that it has "has meaning to the information, knowledge, and understanding that you have, in this point in your development"?

You're certainly free to change the quotes to your liking, no one can stop you in that. The question is: do you honestly believe that just because you can, you should?
Please don't take this personally. I am just trying to understand your train of thought. ;)

 

[anart]

You're certainly free to change the quotes to your liking, no one can stop you in that. The question is: do you honestly believe that just because you can, you should?
Please don't take this personally. I am just trying to understand your train of thought. ;)

Denis, it appears that bngenoh has annoyed you. Could you try to explain why that is? Many people change quotes, post quotes, reverse quotes, do quote satire, and so on and so on. So, why are you focusing in on him and his behavior, since it seems very odd that the integrity of a quote would matter so much to you?

 

[Denis]

Denis, it appears that bngenoh has annoyed you. Could you try to explain why that is?

Hi anart.

Well, I wouldn't say that bngenoh has annoyed me- but he could have triggered some "hidden" program/s in me.

Many people change quotes, post quotes, reverse quotes, do quote satire, and so on and so on. So, why are you focusing in on him and his behavior, since it seems very odd that the integrity of a quote would matter so much to you?

Well, obviously that is something that I haven't considered before. I feel that it is disrespectful towards the author of the quote to modify it to one's own liking without asking him/her for permission first. Why do I feel that way? Because I believe that it's not just the "integrity of the quote", I feel that the author of the quote has left the part of him/herself in his writing/s and I strongly feel it is devaluing his/her work when the person comes and starts modifying the quote to his/her own liking.

 

[Lycan]

Denis if u again go back and read quotes that bngenoh has posted you will see that he first add original and than he express his opinion on the quote by changing the words, adding something of his own. So I really can't see whats the problem here since he is just stating his opinion in somewhat different way than usual. He could write tons of text on the note but he chose to add little of him to the quote. I find that refreshing since many out there rewrite quotes without even saying what was original and what is edited.

So question arises why you are offended by it? Since you have mentioned it is your belief ... Did he maybe knock on some skeletons you don't even know you have, and now you try mask it as they are not there ?
Since I don't see how one quote can be devalued if man states the original and than his opinion more of it, maybe can lead to even profound one to this period of life.

BTW. bngenoh I like one with the grain, that one put me off the chair XD


And one from me that I dont come empty handed XD


"According to the Great Work, a friend is one in which you support and encourage the other's expansion in either the mind or the spirit.Otherwise they are people you are sentimentally attached to it because they would eat cinnamon bun with you. And they will say 'hee, hee, hee' aren't we having fun". Drug addicts do the same thing. D...rug addicts want to be around people who will support them and be away from real friends. Do you know why? Because it feels good. To be a memeber of a mystery school can be catastrophic to the ego and to the ego's habits and to the propensity for mediocrity. No one ever cried striving for excellence. They only cried when their mediocrity was taken away from them and pointed out to them."
- Jerhoam

 

[Soluna]

I think Tokeins quote is a very powerful one, which is very well recognised - and the emotions it evokes strike a cord with many people. Regardless of whether they recognise it from a film or the book ^^ Switching a few words around to give even 'more' emphasis in a specific vein, or to make it more applicable to a subject, or evoke even more feeling - whilst also respecting the author/origin of the quote (as was done) - seems like a good way to help people relate their enjoyment of (for example a good book or movie) to something more tangible or real in their lives. To apply the feelings evoked by a powerfully motivating 'cheer', to something more personal =)


I think perhaps a good example is a wedding dress. In some cases, mothers pass their dresses down to their daughters. The dress is then 'altered' to fit - yet the mother is often filled with joy at seeing her special girl in her own special dress. It's not necessarily the dress itself that holds the sentiment - but the act of passing something treasured down to a loved one... hmm perhaps not a great example as the mother has chosen to pass the dress down and 'allowed' for alteration.

Ah well! That's the sort of feeling I get though =)

 

[Denis]

Denis if u again go back and read quotes that bngenoh has posted you will see that he first add original and than he express his opinion on the quote by changing the words, adding something of his own.

I am aware of that, ShadowSelf.

So I really can't see whats the problem here since he is just stating his opinion in somewhat different way than usual. He could write tons of text on the note but he chose to add little of him to the quote. I find that refreshing since many out there rewrite quotes without even saying what was original and what is edited.

My point is- those quotes are taken out of context. The Celtic poem is relevant to the times in which it was written, and by changing the quote (irrespective of the fact that bngenoh first added the original and named the source) in order to fit in the contemporary world, without asking anyone (the author/s of the quote or their descendants in the event that the author is no longer among the living) for permission, someone can get the idea to do it to all the past writings (actually, I'm pretty sure there are people out there who are already doing it)- and if that happens, we will have a lot of trouble to truly learn something from our past. How could we know our past, if we start rewriting and editing out the parts of past writing/s that we do not like? That is why I feel that acting in that manner is disrespectful towards the author's work/legacy.
Regarding the ones who rewrite quotes without saying what was original and what is edited, well- their actions speak volumes about them.

So question arises why you are offended by it? Since you have mentioned it is your belief ... Did he maybe knock on some skeletons you don't even know you have, and now you try mask it as they are not there ?
Since I don't see how one quote can be devalued if man states the original and than his opinion more of it, maybe can lead to even profound one to this period of life.

Good question. I would not go so far as to say that I am offended, but it certainly bothers me- maybe even more so b/c this group is supposed to be noticing when certain behavior is "out of line".
As far as beliefs, yes... I do not only believe that this kind of behavior is devaluing the author's work, I believe that any person that is doing this is devaluing him/herself as well.
I am aware that as anart has said:

Many people change quotes, post quotes, reverse quotes, do quote satire, and so on and so on.

I am just wondering if what they are doing is right.

Then again, maybe I am simply reading too much into this. :/

 

[anart]

Then again, maybe I am simply reading too much into this. :/

I think you are. In fact, I'd even say that it's bordering on authoritarian thinking - you're basically saying that just because someone is quoted means that quote should never be changed by anyone. It's rather a bizarre concept. Most authors deeply understand that once they release their writing into the public sphere, it is no longer theirs - it belongs to history/the public. Anyone who thinks it won't be tinkered with down the line is delusional.

So, I'd go back to my original question, what's really eating you here? Is it that you think people are not 'following rules' that you have created for quotes? It certainly seems to be that, but perhaps there is something else driving it?

 

[Denis]

I'd even say that it's bordering on authoritarian thinking - you're basically saying that just because someone is quoted means that quote should never be changed by anyone. It's rather a bizarre concept.

I wasn't aware of that. But now that you have brought this to my attention, you are correct in your assessment of my last posts in this thread.
I have my own guidelines in life, and it IS bizarre of me to think that this network shares all of them. Authoritarian thinking lol- well I am certainly NOT the authority on this subject, in fact I think that the only authority is the Truth.

Most authors deeply understand that once they release their writing into the public sphere, it is no longer theirs - it belongs to history/the public. Anyone who thinks it won't be tinkered with down the line is delusional.

Dear Lord, you are spot on here as well! Of course, how could I have thought differently? Only the PRIVATE writings belong to the author and the author alone. Thank you for exposing my delusions!

So, I'd go back to my original question, what's really eating you here? Is it that you think people are not 'following rules' that you have created for quotes? It certainly seems to be that, but perhaps there is something else driving it?

I think this was "eating" me: why not say something in your own words, iow make your own quote? Why not leaving the quotes as they are?
Just for the record, I am not the only one who thinks that being creative in the context of quotes means: make one of your own! Once again, this is my opinion, not the rule that I think everyone should follow.

P.S. bngenoh, I apologize for being an a**hole.

 

[bngenoh]

P.S. bngenoh, I apologize for being an a**hole.

Denis,

No apology needed, you brought up an interesting point for discussion that was elucidated rather nicely by everyone. Who doesn't look like an a**hole every now and then when they are learning? ;) I know I have, both on this forum and off.