Raine, Samenow, Fallon: Neuropsychology & The Work

[Anamarija]

I must add:
I apologize for using word fought instead of thought.
I'm still learning English and any suggestion is always welcome.

 

[goyacobol]

But, he is gone, and I manage to become sous chef. So, for me, that's a sign that there's no free lunch in universe, and I worked very hard (in any level) to pay my lunch.

Dakota,

Thanks for sharing all the phases you have been going through. Many of those things were painful and you still worked through them.

I think you will be a wonderful sous chef.

What better job can you have knowing "there is no free lunch".

 

[memeontheroof]

In the The Myth of the Out of Character Crime Stanton E. Samenow mention 5 different tactics that defendant use to deceive him, I found it very interesting because I saw this tactics many time, especially at my work when a discussion happens after the situation was escalated:

Number one sounds like something I do a lot because I seem to be on a never ending peace keeping mission. I guess only telling part of the truth and withholding the rest is the same as a lie . It is difficult for me to me to be frank with people because I am such a people pleaser. I have been working on being honest with others and with myself with little success. I am so worried about offending anyone or " rocking the boat" I literally walk around on eggshells and I don't know what I am afraid of. Its like I'm frozen into some kind of molded fake personality or something Its a cowardly way to live and its not really living at all but I'll keep trying

 

[Turgon]

Number one sounds like something I do a lot because I seem to be on a never ending peace keeping mission. I guess only telling part of the truth and withholding the rest is the same as a lie . It is difficult for me to me to be frank with people because I am such a people pleaser. I have been working on being honest with others and with myself with little success. I am so worried about offending anyone or " rocking the boat" I literally walk around on eggshells and I don't know what I am afraid of. Its like I'm frozen into some kind of molded fake personality or something Its a cowardly way to live and its not really living at all but I'll keep trying

It's difficult to say whether telling the entire truth is always the best policy. We really don't know how people will respond or react and it can be difficult to predict or know whether it's giving the situation or person what they are asking for. Although from what you describe, saying what's on your mind and not 'holding back' would be worth attempting and see where it goes. It might be terrifying at the beginning and you'll make mistakes along the way, but at the very least you'll learn something about yourself and the people you're trying to please.

 

[Turgon]

@memeontheroof have you had the chance to read Healing Developmental Trauma yet? I'd really look into the Autonomy Survival Style and see if that applies to you.

Autonomy

Individuals with the Autonomy Survival Style have had to face the dilemma of choosing between themselves or their parents. To submit to their parents leaves them feeling invaded, controlled, and crushed. On the other hand, their loving feelings and the need to maintain the attachment relationship keep them from overtly challenging parents. Faced with the impossible choice of trying to maintain the integrity of the self while keeping the love of the parents leaves them in a no-win situation. These children adapt to this dilemma by overtly submitting to parental power while secretly holding out. To do this, these children develop a powerful, though often covert, will.

In adults who have developed this adaptive survival style, self-assertion and overt expressions of independence and autonomy are experienced as dangerous and to be avoided. The major fears that fuel this survival adaptation are the fears of being criticized, rejected, and abandoned.

Individuals with the Autonomy Survival Style are placaters and are afraid to expose their true feelings. Instead, they play the role of the “good boy” or the “nice girl” because they feel that since playing this role won their parents’ “love,” it will win other people’s love as well. A key statement for this adaptive survival style is, “If I show you how I really feel, you won’t love me— you’ll leave me.”

In personal relationships, these individuals allow frustrations to build without addressing them until they reach a point where they can no longer tolerate the accumulated resentments. They usually have escape strategies that allow them to leave relationships without confrontation: they withdraw without explanation, or they make their partner miserable so that the partner rejects them. This rejection by the other allows them to achieve “freedom” without the guilt of saying no, while at the same time reaping the secondary benefit of being the “innocent” injured party.

Externally oriented, they are extremely sensitive to what they perceive as others’ expectations of them and experience these expectations, in intimate relationships and work situations, as pressures to perform.

Parental pressures are internalized as high expectations of themselves. Individuals with the Autonomy Survival Style are extremely judgmental of themselves. They are ruled by “shoulds” and strive endlessly to become who they think they “should” be.

The tendency to brood and ruminate is typical of this survival style. These individuals ruminate after personal encounters, berating themselves about whether they did or said the right thing, chastising themselves for any “mistakes” they feel they made in the interaction, wondering if they said the right thing or hurt the person’s feelings.

In the therapeutic process with individuals with the Autonomy Survival Style, it is important to keep in mind how paralyzed they feel as a result of their own internal contradictions. Not realizing how much pressure they put on themselves or how they constantly judge themselves, they experience their internal struggle as resulting from external circumstances. Growth takes place when they become aware that the pressures they experience are primarily the result of their own internal demands.

 

[hlat]

I am so worried about offending anyone or " rocking the boat" I literally walk around on eggshells and I don't know what I am afraid of.

The good news is that it sounds like you are really good at external consideration, and that's really good for the polite company of strangers, coworkers, and acquaintances.

For deep, personal, authentic relationships, you'll need to assert yourself and your needs.

 

[memeontheroof]

@memeontheroof have you had the chance to read Healing Developmental Trauma yet? I'd really look into the Autonomy Survival Style and see if that applies to you.

Yes I have been reading the books in this thread and it wasn't until I read "Healing Developmental Trauma" that I clued into the fact that my "father" is a text book narcissist and the Autonomy Survival Style was me to a tee. You'll never guess where I was when I read this book I had moved in to my parents home to help my Dad who is 88 with my Mom who is 85 and is ill. Talk about out of the frying pan and into the fire. I am 64 years old and I had no clue even after having read most of the books on the reading list about psychopaths and the information on this forum I was oblivious the light bulb finally went on when I read Healing Developmental Trauma. In fact I read it twice. I kept waking up in the middle of the night with different memories of things that happened when I was a kid just raving mad yelling stuff like " How could you treat an innocent child like that ?" and "You people are monsters" and so on. Thank heavens my parents are really hard of hearing. Anyway my dog is a great listener and I'm not mad anymore and I think they inadvertently did me somewhat of a favor. I grew a really tough hide almost like armour and maybe steered my interest into things of a spiritual nature. Also I have started to reread Secret history and the Wave series and and its like a lot of things I completely missed have taken on a new meaning and I.m getting a lot more out of Laura's books. so I guess even having crazy parents can have a silver lining of sorts. Anyway thank you so much Turgon for your kind response You certainly got right to my issue from just those few lines . I feel like a giant weight has been lifted off of me just knowing someone else really understands

 

[memeontheroof]

The good news is that it sounds like you are really good at external consideration, and that's really good for the polite company of strangers, coworkers, and acquaintances.

For deep, personal, authentic relationships, you'll need to assert yourself and your needs.

Yes I am polite to everybody even people who don't deserve it, Being a "nice ' person just isn't working for me any more so something has got to change. It's funny I can be assertive for others needs for example my children but not it seems for myself. Asserting myself is definately something I need to work on

@memeontheroof have you had the chance to read Healing Developmental Trauma yet? I'd really look into the Autonomy Survival Style and see if that applies to you.

The good news is that it sounds like you are really good at external consideration, and that's really good for the polite company of strangers, coworkers, and acquaintances.

For deep, personal, authentic relationships, you'll need to assert yourself and your needs.

The thought of destroying a child's capacity to experience deep personal authentic relationships is so horrific But I guess narcissists are lacking that ability themselves. But they seem to have no problem asserting themselves. It must take a lifetime of hard work to overcome the psychological damage suffered by every human on the planet We all must have invisible scars. I guess it's time for me to grow up and tell people what 's really on my mind in a diplomatic way I guess depending on the situation. It's a big order but not impossible I hope Thanks for the thought provoking comment I had to think about it for a couple of days

 

[Anamarija]

memeontheroof, even I don't have comforting words for you and I don't try to justify your parents my thoughts are that each one of us have to experience suffering situations in life because that's the only way to learn. For me, every situation where I experience pain or any kind of form of suffering is welcome (surely not in that exact moment) because I know that I have opportunity to learn something. IMO, the story of our life goes in stages and if we after every stage manage to look back and see mistakes and 'wrong' decisions we can change our thinking/behavior/life.

And I think that Turgon gave you great advice, we are all in that situation, in the same time we are experiment, but also and the ones that need to experiment. And before you decide to experiment you have amazing books that can give you different perspectives about life.

This thread Not Nice: Stop People Pleasing, Staying Silent, & Feeling Guilty could be something helpful and this book Not Nice: Stop People Pleasing, Staying Silent, & Feeling Guilty... And Start Speaking Up, Saying No, Asking Boldly, And Unapologetically Being Yourself by Aziz Gazipura if you wanna check out.

 

[hlat]

Yes I am polite to everybody even people who don't deserve it, Being a "nice ' person just isn't working for me any more so something has got to change. It's funny I can be assertive for others needs for example my children but not it seems for myself. Asserting myself is definately something I need to work on

Perhaps the Miss Manners books will give you what you need to say no in a nice, polite way. No one is advocating that you get taken advantage of by others or that you neglect your needs. You can be nice in a polite way and still protect yourself. Being polite and nice does not mean saying yes and does not mean agreeing to requests or demands.

 

[memeontheroof]

Perhaps the Miss Manners books will give you what you need to say no in a nice, polite way. No one is advocating that you get taken advantage of by others or that you neglect your needs. You can be nice in a polite way and still protect yourself. Being polite and nice does not mean saying yes and does not mean agreeing to requests or demands.

Miss Manners will be next on my reading list. Thanks

 

[genero81]

Now in error (and the same is true, of course, in wrongdoing) the mind also creates itself, determines itself in this way, just as in knowledge it determines itself in that. Whatever the mind does, therefore, it cannot escape that self-creation which is moral responsibility. But in error it creates in itself a nature which it conceals from itself quite literally, error and evil are the mind knowing not what it does, creating itself in one shape while it thinks of itself in another. Thus it cannot be said that an idealistic view of mind finds no place for error and evil. On the contrary, it requires their continual presence in the form of that which, by conscious reflection, the mind in knowledge and in duty rejects, and inasmuch as its whole life is a process of self-determination, the past in any such process is the evil which is rejected, good when it was brought into being but now outworn and therefore evil if it had been retained. But what is most fundamental is that the mind can not only commit error but can redeem itself from error.

Collingwood, R. G.. Speculum Mentis . Read Books Ltd.. Kindle Edition.

 

[Tuatha de Danaan]

Now in error (and the same is true, of course, in wrongdoing) the mind also creates itself, determines itself in this way, just as in knowledge it determines itself in that. Whatever the mind does, therefore, it cannot escape that self-creation which is moral responsibility. But in error it creates in itself a nature which it conceals from itself quite literally, error and evil are the mind knowing not what it does, creating itself in one shape while it thinks of itself in another. Thus it cannot be said that an idealistic view of mind finds no place for error and evil. On the contrary, it requires their continual presence in the form of that which, by conscious reflection, the mind in knowledge and in duty rejects, and inasmuch as its whole life is a process of self-determination, the past in any such process is the evil which is rejected, good when it was brought into being but now outworn and therefore evil if it had been retained. But what is most fundamental is that the mind can not only commit error but can redeem itself from error.

Collingwood, R. G.. Speculum Mentis . Read Books Ltd.. Kindle Edition.

Had to read that a few times genero81. God, I find Collingwood hard reading.

 

[Laura]

Had to read that a few times genero81. God, I find Collingwood hard reading.

Me too. But that's what I like. It's like lifting weights with my neurons.

 

[genero81]

Had to read that a few times genero81. God, I find Collingwood hard reading.

It's harder to read a short section like that than to read chapters, I think. The reason for that is Collingwood pursues a particular line of reasoning. Once you understand what that line of reasoning is, it's much, much easier to follow what he's saying. He's absolutely brilliant. There were many time in my life where I tried to reason things out and tried to follow them out to their logical conclusions, but it always proved too elusive. Collingwood had the tenacity of mind to do it. He must have been absolutely relentless in his efforts to, first of all, understand the lines of reasoning of the many historians and philosophers who went before him. To recognize what they got right and what was the error in their thinking and to follow where all of that was leading until he had a clarity explicit enough to hammer it out in Speculum Mentis. As long as we exist in a form of experience involving subject (us) and object (learning environment or density) grasping the ultimate truth is impossible because we must approach truth "through a glass darkly" to quote Paul. Or through a "Distortion of the One", to use The Ra material. Yet the whole point is to seek out the truth, to work for it. And by so doing, to recognize an error in our thinking and thereby overcome it to arrive at a truer truth, or a less distorted version of truth. Truth made a little more explicit. A process of continuous unveiling. Collingwood has in essence, reasoned out the truth of the C's statement that "all there is is lessons." That the only reason for anything to exist at all levels is for learning. That's what I get out of it anyway.