regarding: Children 'bad for planet' article on SOTT 05/07/07

[ScioAgapeOmnis]

If it is REALY that you are all saying: "having children in this day and age makes no sense and only seems to be a self-serving action", then you (beau) are right and I should have treated all replies the same.

However that possibility indeed does not compute with me! Not because I have children but because it is as if you would say, to solve the problems of humanity we have to stop having one.

Anart, I thought this is what Fifth Way was saying here? I was pointing out that his logic makes no sense to me. Unless I misunderstood what he was saying?

Edit: Sorry for not being clear, I forgot to quote :|
Edit2: Long day? Sheesh you're telling me! :P

 

[anart]

Oh, I see - apologies - I misread what you were saying. I missed the reference - thanks for clearing it up (been a long day here ;) )

 

[Fifth Way]

That sounds like some programming to me. I understand your point but it sounds like you are trying to rationalize why it's important, to you, to procreate.

Maybe.

But before I go let me share this;

When my wife and I where trying to have children I had doubts many times. I was justifying my doubts the same way that I think that all of you not having children justifying it right now. ...not into that terrible world, how STS of me, how wrong. Its almost like second degree murder - right?

My wife was in the sixth month on 911.

But the second my daughter was born I was transformed. For the first time I knew that only now I was taking part of the full human experience. I was concluding the cycle. What was given to me now was upon me to pass on. For the very first time I felt: If I would have to make a decision to give my live for hers - it wouldn't even be one. I do it in a split second.

That was completely novel. I never felt that with such a certainty for anybody before, not for my parents, not for my sister not for any friend. Not with that total certainty.

But the really wired thing is; now I feel like that for ALL children. How important is that?

When we where working on our second child I had much less doubts. Actually I thought I wanted my daughter to have back-up. If for some reason we (my wife and I) would check out first they could help each other. And now she has a great brother.

And that feeling described above didn't double, it multiplied. When they fall on the playground or wherever; I can feel the physical pain that they have at the same body-part in the same moment and sometimes even a split second before - and that seems to get stronger with other children too. I find myself more and more often to be the first to pick up or catch any child that needs it.

I am sorry, but that just cannot be conveyed properly to anybody who does not have any children. Just cannot.

And if you all think thats programming and therefore won't bring any in the world, you certainly will never find out.

So many lessons you can never learn....

...I know - STS right?

As I said, I'm not ready.

 

[ScioAgapeOmnis]

But the really wired thing is; now I feel like that for ALL children. How important is that?

You say you'd give your life for your child (and now maybe all children) in a split second, which means, if their life is in danger and you can save them with your own death, you would. Their safety and happiness is more important to you than your own. But if this is true why bring them here in the first place? Would it not be a much lesser sacrifice on your part to not have children, than to have them and then die for them if needed? Do you feel you are doing a service to them by bringing them into this world? Perhaps a service to mankind? Or a service to yourself and your wife? Who is this for?

I don't have a dog because I don't have the time or money to care for one right now. So out of my concern for the well-being of an animal in my house, I choose not to get one - which is a far smaller sacrifice on my part than to get one and then bend over backwards to make it livable for the dog because I would care for it so much. Not to equate a child with a dog, but I think there is a similarity in the decision-making here because to a lot of people their pets are their "children" and they love them no less (sometimes unfortunately more). Does it seem possible that it may be easier to think more critically and objectively about an acquisition of a pet than about making a child? A lot of people would easily say "No way, we can't afford a dog, we don't have time for one!" but the same people would find themselves having children who take up a lot more time and resources than a dog. Sure they love them and do everything in their power to keep them alive and happy, but I guess I'm just not understanding what is STO about the need to have them in the first place. But I'm 23 and I don't even have a girlfriend, so I may understand very little about these things, these are just my thoughts for better or for worse.

And that feeling described above didn't double, it multiplied. When they fall on the playground or wherever; I can feel the physical pain that they have at the same body-part in the same moment and sometimes even a split second before - and that seems to get stronger with other children too. I find myself more and more often to be the first to pick up or catch any child that needs it.

But that's the thing, if you love them and care about them so much, why bring them into this world at this time? This is just a speculation but, is it possible that your desire to have children is overpowering your concern for their well-being? Maybe it gives you a sense of fulfillment and purpose? Not that there's anything "wrong" with that, but if that were the case, I'd say it is STS as it would then depend on another being. And I'm in no way "chastising" you for having children or attacking you for it, I'm simply trying to understand the dynamic involved in your thoughts and feelings, and possible programs/sacred cows that might also be involved in your decision to have them. What is done is done, make the best of it! And I'm not saying you should regret it, so even if you decide that maybe it was not a good idea after all, that's not so horrible. It doesn't mean it should eat away at you or make you feel guilty. It is already done, it's not a "sin", but I don't think that thoughts such as these (if they at all pop into your mind about this matter) should prevent you from at least giving this some critical thought anyway, even if only for understanding and learning - not for regretting. Nobody is saying that you have to see your children as "mistakes", again, if that thought popped into your mind which might theoretically present a "block" and prevent you from thinking about this with clarity and without fear/emotions, don't let it cuz it's not like that!

I am sorry, but that just cannot be conveyed properly to anybody who does not have any children. Just cannot.

What cannot? Your concern for them? Your love for them? The "feeling" they give you?

And if you all think thats programming and therefore won't bring any in the world, you certainly will never find out.

Find out what? Speaking in general and about no one inparticular - I'm sure you of all people know how much programming exists on this planet, ESPECIALLY about such emotionally, socially, culturally, and personally sensitive subjects like children. George Carlin says that politicians traditionally have hidden behind 3 things - the Bible, the Flag, and Children. I'm sure that it is no surprise, given the immense amount of programming for all 3 of these things. I never had children but I'm not a stranger to the Work, I know I have plenty of this programming myself. Most of the programming I have been dealing with did not involve children, perhaps because I don't have any so it just never really "cornered" me and forced me to deal with it yet. A lot of it definitely involved the Bible and the Flag that's for sure.

Fifth, are you not ready to even think about this as critically and objectively as possible? To at least try and see if there is anything to what is being said on this thread on the subject? Just think, it doesn't mean that what I am saying or anyone is saying is right (most especially me, some 23 yr old that still lives with his parents), but you are interested in truth, and as anyone that is truly interested in truth at some point you just have to at least ask "What if?" and give it some serious thought, even if it hurts - especially if it hurts.

 

[Beau]

Well, I don't think what you(FW) wrote above is a lesson to be learned, not in the right sense. Having a child is certainly a spiritual experience. No one is trying to take that away from you or anyone.

But if you think that one has to have a child in order to learn the appropriate lessons in 3D, then I'm afraid that you are wrong. I think that you identify with your experience so much that you have created this huge sacred cow about how important it is for everyone else to experience.

It isn't. And considering the state of the world, it's not even logical.

 

[Azur]

You are missing the point that the "psychopathic agenda" is just the human 3D interface of the hyperdimensional agenda which is to overpopulate the planet with as many souled, but controlled, individuals as possible so as to have a grand slam "killing field" with all that "soul juice" being siphoned off as suffering to feed the 4 D STS agenda.

...

In short, a LARGE quantity of potentially souled individuals are needed as "fertilizer" for the world to come. The 4 D STS plan for it to be a world according to THEIR plans, and thus they encourage childbirth AND propagate psychopathy.

It is very likely that you and your children - unless some fantastic intervention is possible - are among those counted as fertilizer. They have been born to "feed the cosmos" by their suffering and painful deaths.

It is for that most children are brought into the world.

Cold, hard facts.

I don't wish to sidetrack from the issues in thread, but what Laura says above is something else that has been on my mind for a LONG time.

Having come across the data presented on this site (and other readings, both of them having straight facts and metaphysical philosophy), a lot of my long held questions about how the World came to be this way and how people don't seem to notice, have been answered (at the VERY least, partially).

Assuming that not all humans are Souled, or maybe all Souled but from different "sources", I have to wonder if this design of the Hyperdimensional denizens are known to them before they plunge into their DNA compatible 3D suits.

If it is: why do they keep coming back?

Another assumption here would be that a body in gestation ends up in stillbirth if no Soul is present at birth (or maybe at some critical point in the gestation period). So if no one shows up to the party from the "other" side, the childbirth issue would sort of take care of itself, no? No more food to feed the Plans of 4D STS?


Logically, one can assume that if all of these assumptions were correct, that we could all just keep trying to have children, and if they live passed childbirth, than that would be a "nod" that everything is OK, since they showed up.

I think, if this can be answered at all, that the above "conclusion" would NOT be the case. It is not that simple.

There is something deeper here. We also cannot conclude that since people keep showing up here, that the plans of the 4D STS are "minor" or simply part of a greater plan, making ok to let these particular STS types roll us over.

Another aspect of this, is that it seems (and I most certainly can be wrong here) is that 3D DNA vehicles, i.e. bodies, can only be created by other 3D bodies here. So there is a choice factor involved. If we all stop making bodies, and follow that to its logical conclusion, then what happens? No more vehicles for Souls here in 3D? What would be the impact of that?

Would that be a selfish STS choice to make by denying a willing Soul from trying to learn down here, to undertake the challenges presented and break free, become Golden? Or would it be only a choice lesson by those already here? (And would the latter be STO or STS?)

Still have leftover pieces to this puzzle....

 

[anart]

In the forward of SHotW Laura points out that here motivation to relentlessly look for truth grew out of raising her five children!!!

In short, a LARGE quantity of potentially souled individuals are needed as "fertilizer" for the world to come. The 4 D STS plan for it to be a world according to THEIR plans, and thus they encourage childbirth AND propagate psychopathy.

It is very likely that you and your children - unless some fantastic intervention is possible - are among those counted as fertilizer. They have been born to "feed the cosmos" by their suffering and painful deaths.

It is for that most children are brought into the world.

Cold, hard facts.

Thank you Laura with providing data, cold hard facts - at last.

I am sorry, but that just cannot be conveyed properly to anybody who does not have any children. Just cannot.

And if you all think thats programming and therefore won't bring any in the world, you certainly will never find out.

So many lessons you can never learn....

?

 

[Laura]

That sounds like some programming to me. I understand your point but it sounds like you are trying to rationalize why it's important, to you, to procreate.

Maybe.

But before I go let me share this;

When my wife and I where trying to have children I had doubts many times. I was justifying my doubts the same way that I think that all of you not having children justifying it right now. ...not into that terrible world, how STS of me, how wrong. Its almost like second degree murder - right?

My wife was in the sixth month on 911.

But the second my daughter was born I was transformed. For the first time I knew that only now I was taking part of the full human experience. I was concluding the cycle. What was given to me now was upon me to pass on. For the very first time I felt: If I would have to make a decision to give my live for hers - it wouldn't even be one. I do it in a split second.

That was completely novel. I never felt that with such a certainty for anybody before, not for my parents, not for my sister not for any friend. Not with that total certainty.

But the really wired thing is; now I feel like that for ALL children. How important is that?

It is certainly important to insure the continuation of the species so that there is more food. In fact, this particular chemical reaction (for such it is) has been discussed extensively by more materially minded scientists who refer to it as part of the "selfish gene" theory.

Boris Mouravieff talks about it also as part of the general law, and specifically in the terms I have suggested: that it is nature's way of insuring that humans will continue to provide fertilizer for the cosmos.

There is nothing particular in it, and you should notice that this emotion is focused on the physical body of the child though certainly it gets dressed up in "oh, that little "soul" " and so on.

When we where working on our second child I had much less doubts. Actually I thought I wanted my daughter to have back-up. If for some reason we (my wife and I) would check out first they could help each other. And now she has a great brother.

Yes, as I mentioned, it is mainly focused on preserving the life of the body.

And that feeling described above didn't double, it multiplied. When they fall on the playground or wherever; I can feel the physical pain that they have at the same body-part in the same moment and sometimes even a split second before - and that seems to get stronger with other children too. I find myself more and more often to be the first to pick up or catch any child that needs it.

No doubt. And of course, I know exactly what you are talking about, only my children have grown up and I have a lot more years (multiplied, too) on you there, so I know about things that you are going to experience with your children that you know nothing about at all.

One thing you should note is that this "caring" that you feel is not so unique and it is most definitely part of the repertoire of emotions of even OPs. You could even say that it is the linkage between the genetic bodies that induces the sensation.

I am sorry, but that just cannot be conveyed properly to anybody who does not have any children. Just cannot.

Well, here you are wrong. All normal women can feel it whether they have children or not. It is usually only men who must have a "child of the body" to get "hooked up" to the feeling. And the fact that they must have a child of their own in order to do so again suggests that it is a "genetic body" connection and has nothing to do with a "soul quality."

And if you all think thats programming and therefore won't bring any in the world, you certainly will never find out.

Well, as a matter of fact, it IS programming, though it is programmed into our "hard wiring" by evolution.

It is really somewhat humorous for women in general and mothers in particular to see a man get "taken up" by such emotions and think that somehow it sanctifies them in some way.

So many lessons you can never learn....

...I know - STS right?

Actually, in the terms of this discussion, pretty much.

I will tell you this, though, if I knew then what I know now, I would never have had children. And my children are the most important things in my life and the reason I do what I do. It is a kind of desperation: I think, my god! what have I done?! I've brought you into the world, and now I learn what the world really is and where it is going, and so I must expend every ounce of my energy every day to try to do something about the screw-up.

The Cathars were right: it is almost a crime to bring a child into this world to perpetuate the suffering.

As I said, I'm not ready.

You are certainly way too identified with the body and the chemicals.

 

[j0da]

But the second my daughter was born I was transformed. For the first time I knew that only now I was taking part of the full human experience.

Similar things I've heard from many of my friends lately, since everyone around me got married and breeding cycle of people in my age has begun. Interestingly, I hear such elevating statements from my male mates, not from girls:

"Hey, it might be the ONLY important thing that I would do in my whole life!"

or

"As I was looking at the screen, seeing this little man developing inside my wive's fetus I felt I'm finally doing something really important, like taking part in God's plan!"

or

"It's just the right thing to do, man! What, are you planning to live only for yourself? Life without children is a life without meaning."


And despite not all my mates are religious guys, I swear I see sudden glow of inspired zealotry in their eyes, when they begin to preach. It is scary in it's mechanicalness, which comes out of them, sorta like metal alloy skull becomes visible under Terminator's skin...

Fifth Way, you are with us for quite a time. You've come this far, and I think you might be able to overcome all this. But, in the end, you will do, what you will do.

 

[manitoban]

I will tell you this, though, if I knew then what I know now, I would never have had children. And my children are the most important things in my life and the reason I do what I do. It is a kind of desperation: I think, my god! what have I done?! I've brought you into the world, and now I learn what the world really is and where it is going, and so I must expend every ounce of my energy every day to try to do something about the screw-up

I feel like this too, - I feel guilty that I brought my child into this hellish world, and I wouldn't have done it if I had known what I do now either. And having this knowledge now is certainly a factor in my decision not to have any more children. Having said that, loving my child as I do so deeply, does give me the strongest possible motivation to go on, to keep trying to do something to change the situation, to do all that I can to save him.

 

[Fifth Way]

I think that you identify with your experience so much that you have created this huge sacred cow about how important it is for everyone else to experience.

You nailed it.

And Laura:

I will tell you this, though, if I knew then what I know now, I would never have had children. And my children are the most important things in my life and the reason I do what I do. It is a kind of desperation: I think, my god! what have I done?! I've brought you into the world, and now I learn what the world really is and where it is going, and so I must expend every ounce of my energy every day to try to do something about the screw-up

And manitoban:

I feel like this too, - I feel guilty that I brought my child into this hellish world, and I wouldn't have done it if I had known what I do now either. And having this knowledge now is certainly a factor in my decision not to have any more children. Having said that, loving my child as I do so deeply, does give me the strongest possible motivation to go on, to keep trying to do something to change the situation, to do all that I can to save him.

Last night all night I was thinking about all your posts and this morning when I woke up (before I read any new post as quoted above) I realized my sacred cow.

In my last post I lied to you all and of course mainly to myself. What really happened is this:

My wife and I spend sometime in a little house in the country here in the US (while our base was in Europe) in 2000 during the time Bush scammed himself into office. We where doing research into the true history of the world reading books nonstop for month. That was when the initial double whammy hit.
a. The psycho in power, b. we are just inside the matrix and reality is totally different.

That is when I started to have doubts about children. But our family plan was already set and agreed upon for years. It was a real dilemma I was battling with. Then we got pregnant and that was that. The experience of birth and having the child made me push all away except (and that is where I lied) it didn't go away. 911 and what followed made sure of that. I too became so much more sincere in my efforts to do something to make up for my mistake but in the end that is the kind of mistake that can NEVER be rectified.
All the feelings I described are true (SAO asked why they cannot be conveyed; because they are feelings that cannot be put in words) but now I understand that they are chemical nevertheless (like the high of a drug cannot be explained and also only experienced and that is just chemical as well).

Then my mother at some point sent me this stuff about Frank Schirrmacher and his book Minimum. And even though I did not read the book, not read the facts, not checked the facts, but only read about it, that information resolved all my troubles. Hey - I knew it - it is fine to have children. Not only fine, it is the ONLY right think on earth. Now I could go back to sleep.

And I did - despite knowing so much better. I took the bait hook, line and sinker.

Sh*t!

And now I am back at square one.

Thanks for not letting me get away.
I'm sorry I was rude and in your face. That was some big cow to kill. And the first to point it out gets it. I apologize.

In moments like this I hate this motherf***** world.

...I'll get over it.

Peace.
Thanks again

 

[Rich]

And now I am back at square one.

Thanks for not letting me get away.
[...]
...I'll get over it.

Peace.
Thanks again

nice one. Your post made me smile there fifthway for all the right reasons. I would argue that you're not back at square one but much much stronger.

when my son starts creeping towards the stairs, giggling guiltily, knowing i'll chase him, It is easy to want to get lost in his laughter and bury my head in the sand but it now seems harder to ignore the true reality of this world.

 

[Charles]

I can very much empathize with the way you describe the feelings that creep up on you when you "see" your two young children and than juxtapose this with the way you "see" the world and where it is heading. I too have two young children. Last week I shared with a colleague, and she agreed upon, how the majority of our culture is like slipping away from me at an ever faster pace and seems to be heading straight for an abyss, and that such was not only because I have learned and changed, but more importantly because the majority of people have changed so much over the past decade (a process that we have come to term as ponerization). Does it hurt me? Oh God yes. Deeply at times. Especially my eldest daughter is such a caring and sensitive individual. But not all parents are being caught up in the process of ponerisation. My colleague for instance is also a young mother and she has tossed out the television many years ago.

But do I feel guilty about this? No, maybe at times, but in general no. Besides, it can’t be undone and feeling guilty about it is very close to procrastination. I DO feel guilty at times for being too harsh, or absent-minded, or for forgetting that I am relating to another individual, most possibly with soul connection. And than I try to DO something about it, which usually comes down to be even more aware. But I do not regret, or feel guilty about the fact that I contributed in the process of making a physical vehicle in which a soul part can come to learn and be challenged. I have pondered a very long time before I came to a decision. Already as a younger 18year old boy I felt a deep urge to have children one day, the reason being unknown and quite possibly hard-wired, but most definitely not: to not be alone, or to be as others, or to make me an object for projection, or to have helpers at an older age and such (frowning). Among friends around school we also had discussions in which we came to the conclusion that it was irresponsible to have more than two children. The motivation being was overpopulation combined with over consumption. And so, some 17 years later the decision was made to have two, or none (einmal ist keinmal :P).

Our daughter was born in 2000. Indeed it IS an experience so intense and deep that I cannot grab it with words. Very spiritual indeed. To me it was proof for the existence of a deeper soul layer. People are most definitely NOT born with a tabula rasa. And what I saw in my children as personality traits, and shared with my wife, has only been confirmed, now six and four years later. Deciding for the second child though has been very difficult. For many months, I have been pondering, and going into different layers. Sometimes it was tearing my heart apart. You see, 9/11 happened ! And that seems to have changed so many things. But did it really, or has this only opened our eyes? In the end, I went back to the original promise I made to my wife, and to myself : two, or none. And I do not regret it.

Imagine, or anybody, that your father or mother feels guilty for bringing you into this world. Imagine that this is not just something that is said during a quarrel or within a certain context. No, it is a profound feeling that is lived day in day out. What would that do with you? With your self esteem, with your moments of joy, or sadness and depression that have to be overcome? I do not know, because I do not know of any objective study or research and I can only imagine and empathise. But my educated guess says that it can’t be a very healthy situation, and definitely not a good foundation for what we CAN do (for our children).

FW, I just noticed your post in which you describe your insight of a sacred cow you have, or … had :)

In that case, I hope my post can bring some balance.

 

[Joe]

And that feeling described above didn't double, it multiplied. When they fall on the playground or wherever; I can feel the physical pain that they have at the same body-part in the same moment and sometimes even a split second before - and that seems to get stronger with other children too. I find myself more and more often to be the first to pick up or catch any child that needs it.

I am sorry, but that just cannot be conveyed properly to anybody who does not have any children. Just cannot.

And if you all think thats programming and therefore won't bring any in the world, you certainly will never find out.

So many lessons you can never learn....

This is an assumption.

Joe

 

[Kel]

I'm confused here.

From what I understand from the C's transcripts ect, we come into this world because our soul chooses this experience, it is part of the cycle of the soul journey. If our parents didn't make the "choice", conscious or unconscious, to birth us, wouldn't our souls have birthed into some other body either on this planet or not?

Help with this concept and clarification would be appreciated.