regarding: Children 'bad for planet' article on SOTT 05/07/07

Fifth Way said:
Your entire post is a complete projection, I am sorry to tell you.
You now even reject data of hand calling it ludicrous AND without supplying data to refute it. I think you may want to look at your vested interest of having no children (which I assume as you did not answer my simple question). Major denial I see. (Hey its good for the environment, right)
BTW The word "ludicrous" alone, gives away your emotional charge.
Well, that is certainly an interesting take on it, but I'm afraid you are mistaken. It seems it would be best for you to take a deep breath and calm down a bit before continuing this discussion.

I adore children, but due to uterine cancer, I am unable to have them - does that fit into your arrogant assessment of who I am?

Your most recent posts on this thread have been rude and borderline abusive which is something we work very hard to avoid on this forum.
 
Fifth Way said:
Joe said:
Fifth way, you are missing the point. We are not talking about having less children in a way that leads to babies being dumped on the street,
No? In what way are you talking about having less children?
I think the steps you outlined are the steps the pathocracy takes to resolve this, not the steps that normal people would take. But as long as the pathocracy is in charge, it's difficult to do anything at all. I think the first and only issue to concentrate on is to get rid of the pathocracy because honestly, I don't think we can tell what the true "population limit" is on this planet until we get rid of the pathocracy, clean up our planet, get rid of poverty by distributing the wealth, and then do the necessary analysis when the above is done. Great poverty of the majority of the population existed for thousands of years - back when population was still in the millions. So you cannot blame massive global poverty and horrible quality of life on overpopulation just from that fact alone. Clearly, the problem is something else entirely - and of course we already know what, pathocracy.

Fifth Way said:
It is always little steps. I thought we went trough that:

1. It is the over-population - Stupid.
I agree that anything we try to accomplish globally in a NORMAL and HUMANE way will end up getting twisted and done in a pathocratic way as long as the pathocracy is in charge of everything, which is why I think it's not really useful to tell people to have less children right now - the first thing is to get rid of pathocracy, stabilize the condition on the planet, and THEN try to assess the situation and consider the issue of population and its affect on the planet and our lives.

Fifth Way said:
Or which point is it that I am not getting?
I think the point is that the pathocracy is the problem, but so is overpopulation - at least in theory. The trouble is, because of the hell that the pathocracy has created on this planet, we don't know where is up and where is down, and we have no way of really knowing just what is a reasonable population level on this planet IF everyone on the planet treats the planet efficiently and with care. And we cannot make any real assessment because the current situation is NOT caused by overpopulation, and until we get rid of the real causes of this planetary hell, it's hard or maybe even impossible to guess just how many people the planet can truly comfortably support, if those people are very efficient with resources and treat the planet with great care.

In other words, eventually overpopulation will be a problem one way or another and the humane way to deal with it WILL most likely be to voluntarily have fewer children when the entire population fully understands all the factors involved, but because of the pathocracy creating the current hell on earth, this humane way of dealing with overpopulation is irrelevant right now and impossible to carry out at all, until the pathocracy is removed. At least that's my understanding, or am I missing something?

Fifth, do you agree? Joe? Anart? I'm not sure I fully understand the disagreement that is happening on this thread, I'm rather confused.

We ALL know that the pathocracy is the reason for the world's ills. We also ALL know that overpopulation WILL be an issue eventually due to practical physical constraints. And I think we all would probably agree that we cannot make an accurate assessment of just how much population is "too much" until the pathocracy is gone, because the quality of life humanity has experienced for thousands of years has been abysmal because of the pathocracy, it's been abysmal then and it is abysmal now, and until we can remove this factor, we can't make any assessment of practical population limits. Otherwise we could say that any population is too much, it was too much 2000 years ago and it is too much now - if you just base the assessment off of the general quality of life - but obviously that would be a false assessment.
 
Why don't we stick with data and information:
Random House said:
http://www.randomhouse.de/book/excerpt.jsp?edi=196407&frm=true
Frank Schirrmacher
Minimum – The Fading and Re-emergence
of Our Community


© 2006 by Karl Blessing Verlag, a division of
Verlagsgruppe Random House GmbH, München, Germany

We have become fewer....
The demographer Nicholas Eberstadt has forecast that in Italy within the next two
generations, three-fifths of the children will have no direct relatives of their own
generation. For other European nations the situation will be similar.
“Approximately 40 percent of the children in Europe will have no relatives in the
same age group. Less than one-sixth will have the experience of a brother or
sister and a cousin at the same time. The family structure in the less developed
parts of the world will not quite have reached this state of affairs by the year
2050. But it is just a matter of time. As a consequence of this birth rate, in one or
two generations a family composed of siblings, cousins, and aunts and uncles
will be an anomaly.� And the Economist prophesises: “... Baby number seven-
and-a-half billion will most probably be an only child.� ...

What happens to a society with such a low birth rate that fewer and fewer people
are related to one another? Who will provide help for whom when there are no
more families, or, more precisely, when families have become too small to be
able to respond in emergencies? What will happen when the fundamentally
accepted state of things is reversed, with society rewarding only those who go
their own independent ways – and then wondering why no one ever returns? ...

There is a reason for the lethargic way society responds to this. We habitually
perceive the causes that set off these demographic changes the same way we
regard changing crime rate, variations in foreign trade, or a drop in the
registration of new cars – that is, economically, socially, or politically. This
particular shift is also connected with fundamental biological processes:
reproductive behaviour strongly influences not only the basic instincts of all living
beings, but also the evolution of communities, societies, and cultures. Moreover,
these processes produce effects that are by nature no longer able to be
conveyed by statistics or be used in making the usual social prognoses.
Maybe this is why the consequences of these changes are so easily
underestimated. One other reason could be that these most vital and pertinent
questions of our social life are within the domain of a very dry science: population
demographics.
Far from there being educational campaigns about this trend, the decrease in the
number of children is actually seen by some as a way to trim the budget, through
closing schools or otherwise cutting back in education. We should instead be
doubling or tripling our efforts in supporting education, for children learn through
their peers and through the family. These two human factors have more
influential than school facilities, teachers’ pay or classroom size – as proven by
the Coleman Report in America from 1966. When children are diminished in
numbers, when there are fewer age-mates, and when families become a rarity, it
is the only child who must learn and think for a half-missing generation.
This foreboding population development will alter not only the generational life of
the family. It will also confront a generation with the dissolution of that
arrangement in which the state has been taking on not only the roles but also the
behavioural patterns of the family to the point of altruistic self-sacrifice. It will
suddenly dawn on the 40- to 60-year-olds today that they have waited too long to
make material and familial provisions for themselves. And there will come
generations that will be overburdened when the state suddenly re-delegates to
them the entrusted duties associated with the role of the family unit.
Quite different from how it was for us, when socialisation came about with very
little effort at all, it will no longer be an easy or simple thing for these children to
become socialised. They will probably have a very difficult time feeling
responsible for their fellow humans, and they will discover that social conscience,
altruism, and even love are rare and costly resources, ones no longer abundant
and readily available – not for the world, not even for one’s own society: at the
most, only for those who belong to the immediate circle of friends or relations. ...

And so we come to the core of the problem: the number of relatives is shrinking,
and along with it the interpersonal networks. Single people will receive help less
and less and so will be increasingly forced to rely solely on themselves. Yet it is
these very networks that people need for their own survival, just as much today
as a hundred years ago in the snow-blocked Donner Pass in the Sierra Nevada
mountains. The more developed these networks are, the longer people will
survive. This is true for modern society to such an extent and effectiveness that,
if it were pharmaceutically measurable, families and close friendships would be
wonder drugs. Large families reduce the risk of cardiovascular disease; people
whose social networks are alive and evolved have lower pressure and an
increased chance of overcoming cancer. Such medical effects are causally
related to familial love and attention. In a study of cardiovascular health of ten
thousand public employees in Israel, the mathematically unquantifiable love of a
wife and family members has been shown to aid in faster recovery from heart
attacks. When this affection is lacking the risk of a recurrence increases
dramatically. ...

The task of many families in the future – and soon of society itself – will be to
newly define the parameters of biological family relations, step relations, and
friendships. Marriage, divorce, living together, remarriage, children from first,
second, and third relationships, with their various legal statuses – all these have
created an enormously multifaceted, unmanageable, and diffuse array of half-
and step-relations.
“The consequences that these new familial relationship structures will have on
human behaviour have to a large extent yet to be studied,� according to an
official publication of the National Research Council of the United States. “And
neither is it known what this means for life in a common household or other
structures of shared living, or for the distribution of resources. We desperately
need to develop methods for measuring these new forms of relationships and for
estimating what effects these have on human behaviour.�
Indeed we can already see a difference between blood relatives on the one hand
and friendships and half-blood relations on the other. Friendships must ultimately
demonstrate a balance of give-and-take, something evolutionary psychology
calls “reciprocal co-operation� . Relationships between people biologically related,
in contrast, are able to operate with an imbalance of reciprocation. Though there
might be an ongoing struggle between relatives concerning such one-sidedness,
studies have shown that such imbalances are tolerated through a lifetime only by
close blood relatives. ...

Brain researchers believe that the talent of women for making even strangers
part of the family is related to the social mobility of women, a mobility they have
been subjected to for ages. In practically all cultures, daughters move in with the
families of their future husbands, whereas sons most often remain their whole
lives within the circle of biological relatives. According to Simon Baron-Cohen,
professor of psychiatry and psychology at the Trinity College of the University of
Cambridge, “Men possibly were not compelled to the same extent as women to
train their empathic abilities, because they didn’t need to invest nearly as much
effort in the procurement and maintenance of relationships. Good relationships to
non-relatives require greater sensibility concerning reciprocation and propriety,
since such relationships are not taken for granted.� ...

“At some period on the way to becoming human,� according to Eckhart Voland,
“something occurred that has anthropologists perplexed: a significantly increased
lifespan and its consequence of placing the role of the helping grandmother in
centre stage.� Grandmothers, so it seems, are by their very nature “altruistically�
constructed (which doesn’t necessarily mean they are altruistic as individuals).
They help the daughters in raising the children; by so doing increase their own
chances for survival. Studies in Africa and India reveal that the presence of
grandmothers, or of older women, can decisively influence the health, size and
intelligence of the grandchildren. ...

In the process of becoming reorganised, our shrinking society, whether it likes it
or not, will increasingly need to make use of these advantageous qualities of
women, not only in social networking and the media (where this process had its
origins) but also at the very centre of our institutions. Women will be desperately
sought out as qualified workers; they will be needed existentially as mothers and
later as grandmothers. Thanks to their social competence they will fill a large gap
in a world in which families are at a premium.
This process of reorganisation has been taking place for a long time. It is being
accelerated now by the decreasing birth rate, which is exerting a strong influence
simultaneously on the biological, social, and cultural systems of our society. This
situation could become so taken for granted that the contemporary ironic and
incognizant discourse on generational issues will soon become as senseless as
the feudal nostalgia of the refugee Russian nobility following the October
Revolution. ...

This birth-rate curve has clearly been falling continuously for thirty years. If within
a decade the desire for children by those under thirty sinks 15 percent among
men and five percent among women, the “moral economy� , the social resources
of altruism, will likewise decline. This may sound moralistic, but it is simply a
matter of translating this into numbers and reciprocal formulas. Those who will
suffer most from this regression are the people who, in the dependency of
advanced age, must rely on social services, but will be unable even to buy the
care and attention they truly need.
UNVERKÄUFLICHE LESEPROBE
Frank Schirrmacher
Minimum
Vom Vergehen und Neuentstehen unserer Gemeinschaft
Gebundenes Buch, 192 Seiten, 13,5 x 21,5 cm
ISBN: 978-3-89667-291-9
Blessing
Erscheinungstermin: März 2006
Warum man Freunde gewinnen muss – und was es kostet

Unsere sozialen Beziehungen werden in den nächsten Jahrzehnten einer großen
Belastung ausgesetzt: Sie werden knapp werden wie ein kostbarer Rohstoff. Schon heute
bewegen sie sich in Teilen des Landes auf ein historisch nie gekanntes Minimum zu. Als
Ergebnis der unumstößlichen Schrumpfung unserer Gesellschaft und aufgrund vielfältiger
Globalisierungseffekte wird es eine Reduzierung unserer kleinsten Welt, der unserer Freunde
und Familien geben. Diese Revolution wird sich in allen Lebensbereichen Geltung verschaffen:
in der Politik wie in der Kultur, in der Wissenschaft wie im Alltag.

Wer ist da, wenn niemand mehr da ist? Jeder hat gelernt, dass er für die Zukunft vorsorgen
muss. Wir sollen sparen, Geld und Vorräte anlegen. Aber kann man eigentlich Kinder sparen,
die man nie geboren hat? Zu den knappen Rohstoffen der Zukunft wird etwas gehören, das
man nicht sparen kann: Verwandte, Freunde, Beziehungen, kurzum das, was man soziales
Kapital nennt. In den kommenden Jahren wird sich unsere Lebensweise radikal verändern. In
vielen Ländern Europas wird eine wachsende Zahl von Kindern in ihrer eigenen Generation
wenige oder gar keine Blutsverwandte mehr haben. Künftig sehen sich ganze Landstriche, wie
heute schon Teile Ostdeutschlands, mit einer Wanderungsbewegung junger Frauen konfrontiert;
zurück bleiben Männer, deren Chancen, eine Partnerin zu finden, immer geringer werden.
Frank Schirrmacher zeigt, dass unsere Gesellschaften auf diese Entwertung ihres sozialen
Kapitals nicht vorbereitet sind: Der Wohlfahrtsstaat zieht sich in einem Moment als großer
Ernährer zurück, in dem sich das private Versorgungsnetz aus Freundschaft, Verwandtschaft
und Familie auflöst. Kann es in diesem Umfeld Uneigennützigkeit und Altruismus, selbstlose
Hilfe und Unterstützung für den anderen überhaupt noch geben?
Der Zusammenbruch unserer sozialen Grundfesten zwingt uns, unser alltägliches
Zusammenleben von Grund auf umzuorganisieren. Dabei werden Frauen eine alles
entscheidende Rolle spielen.

"Wenn du einen Jungen erziehst, erziehst du eine Person, wenn du ein Mädchen erziehst,
erziehst du eine Familie und eine ganze Gemeinschaft - ja, eine Nation."
(JAMES D. WOLFENSOHN, EHEMALIGER WELTBANKPRÄSIDENT)

UNVERKÄUFLICHE LESEPROBE
 
If you ask people not to have children now, it only makes sense to do it because the world is going to hell and so those children will probably end up suffering at the mercy of psychopaths. But it makes no sense to do it for environmental reasons YET - because of what I already said, that we don't really know just what effect population itself is currently having on the environment because as I said, 100 people can trash the planet if they really try, so everything is in what we do, and until we start DOING what is best for all and for the planet, we cannot declare that we're reaching the "limit" of what the planet can hold. And we can't do what is best for everyone if the pathocracy is around.

And let's not forget the "divorce rate" and how many people in families are unhappy because of the fact that most relationships are "feeding relationships". So before the idea that "families make people happy and want to live" is sold on us, let's not forget the true nature and dynamics of most relationships and families too. Where is the data that says that families are happier which results in people wanting to live longer? We might consider suicide rates. I have seen articles taht suicides among the rich are more common (percentage wise, since there's just far less rich people than poor) than among the poor, so we at least know MONEY does not make people want to hang around, it is a "false lead" to happiness. What about families, children? Suicide statistics of single people vs people in families might at least give some data, though there is probably a lot more to all of this. For example, we might find a higher percentage of psychopaths among the rich, which might contribute to suicide rates. If normal people who become rich or semi-rich suddenly find themselves surrounded by a much higher percentage of psychopaths, that might contribute to why suicide rates are higher as well.
 
Fifth Way said:
Joe said:
Fifth way, you are missing the point. We are not talking about having less children in a way that leads to babies being dumped on the street,
No? In what way are you talking about having less children?
We are talking about an ideal world where popular consensus could be reached to not have a lot of children, to manage the population so that we all don't starve, or fall of the end of the planet. There is no chance of it happening in a ponerized world. Psychopaths are the problem.

Joe
 
Fifth Way said:
Your entire post is a complete projection, I am sorry to tell you.
You now even reject data of hand calling it ludicrous AND without supplying data to refute it. I think you may want to look at your vested interest of having no children (which I assume as you did not answer my simple question). Major denial I see. (Hey its good for the environment, right)

BTW The word "ludicrous" alone, gives away your emotional charge.
No it doesn't, and the consensus is that YOU are getting carried away here. So remember where you are, and try and remember your manners. You seem to have a tendency to focus on small points and miss the general point. It seems that you just like to argue. This forum is not for arguing, it is for discussion, and discussion cannot be had when someone refuses to move from their belief that they are right on any given point. Why don't you try a little diplomacy and not see every discussion as a fight.

Joe
 
From http://www.esiweb.org/pdf/esi_document_id_80.pdf
Page 24:
Europe Stability Initiative said:
IV. DONNER PARTY [...] (emphasis mine)
In 1994 the US anthropologist Donald Grayson wrote a scientific study of one of the most
famous episodes in the history of the American West: the ill-fated Donner Party, which met a
tragic end in the snows of the Sierra Nevada. The Donner Party was a group of settlers that
set out with wagons on the 2,000-mile trek from Illinois to California in the 1840s. Having
crossed the Great Salt Lake Desert, the party became trapped by early snows in the
mountains. Unable to go either forward or back, 40 of 87 perished before help arrived in the
spring. This included almost all the young men who had travelled without family. Grayson
noted that there was a direct correlation between family size and the likelihood of survival
:
“surviving males travelled with families averaging 8.4 people. Males who did not
survive travelled with families averaging 5.7 individuals. Surviving females of this age
travelled with families whose size averaged 10.1 individuals ... larger kin groups seem
to have provided life-enhancing support to members of the Donner party� 74
In 2006 German author Frank Schirrmacher published a book – Minimum – that uses the
Donner Party as a metaphor for a crisis facing European society in the 21st century.
Schirrmacher speaks of the family as Überlebensfabrik (“survival machine� ) increasingly put
under threat by sharply falling European birth rates.75 He offers dire warnings of a future in
which kinship networks are withering, most children will grow up without brothers or sisters,
and people may come to discover in their old age that they have placed too much reliance on
the welfare state.
Similar debates are taking place across most of Europe. Today, the new EU member states in
Central Europe have some of the lowest birth rates in the world: 1.2 children per woman in
the Czech Republic, Slovenia, Latvia and Poland, far below the 2.1 needed to maintain
population. Greece, Italy and Spain have had rates of 1.3 and under for a decade. As one
74 Donald Grayson, Differential Mortality and the Donner Party Disaster, Evolutionary Anthropology,
1994, p. 157.
75 Frank Schirrmacher, Minimum, 2006, p. 39.
recent article noted alarmingly (and erroneously): “no European country is maintaining its
population through births.� 76
Beyond that general consensus how rude and emotional I am we are still not (except for SAO) discussing my point. Here it is one more time in other words:


Telling people to have less children for the sake of the environment is a scam by the pathocracy to further weaken the overall human condition.


Anyway. I have nothing to add at this point. I will take a step back and revisit this thread later to see how emotional I really am and whether somebody came up with some data to show me where my point is in fact wrong.
 
Fifth Way said:
1. It is the over-population - Stupid.
2. We need less people.
3. We need less children.
4. Have 4 instead of 5.
5. Have 3 instead of 4.
6. Have 2 instead of 3.
7. Have 1 instead of 2.
8. Give tax cuts for less children
9. Make it mandatory law
10. Give a death sentence for violations
11. 7. Have 0 instead of 1. unless of course your genetic imprint has been approved for proliferation.
Hey, we have too many people. Its all because of those damned masses of people. But don't look over there (distribution, politics, hidden agendas, ... fill in the blank).

Joe, you've got to read the signs of the times!

Or which point is it that I am not getting?
You are missing the point that the "psychopathic agenda" is just the human 3D interface of the hyperdimensional agenda which is to overpopulate the planet with as many souled, but controlled, individuals as possible so as to have a grand slam "killing field" with all that "soul juice" being siphoned off as suffering to feed the 4 D STS agenda.

Secret History said:
Organic life on Earth serves as a “transmitter station
 
Fifth Way said:
Telling people to have less children for the sake of the environment is a scam by the pathocracy to further weaken the overall human condition.
interesting. haven;t commented so far, but now I'm gonna. You (5th way) summarised the assertion quite well, I think that sums it up ok, but...
I think it has an extra layer which you (5th way) didn't mention yet which betrays it's psychopathic (colourblind to human reality) origin, and so it is conversive thinking, and I guess you're falling for it? ie: I believe it is the way the pathocracy might imagine would weaken the human condition, based on psychopathic (and therefore filtered) data.

let me elabourate - a psychopath will imagine that human beings will have closer interconnecting bonds within a family rather than outside the family, not for any real reason but just because it is 'social convention' to care for your family. this is completely missing the point that human beings care for one another because human beings care!!!

To illustrate - I have one parent who is an only child, and one parent who was part of a huge family of children.
Does this mean that the only-child parent was in a 'weakened position' by his reduced inter-family links, forged by social convention!? absolutely not, it is just that his social interlinking network extended to closer ties outside the family. he still had probably a similar amount of 'connectedness' to other human beings, which this article tries to persuade would not be the case. he was a normal human being who interacted and made friends with the people around him and they support each other just like any normal community of humans! So both of my parents had a support network of similar 'significance' if you like, ie they were (are!) both still members of the human race.

A psychopath simply cannot understand this scenario, it makes no sense to them - "why would people care for each other if 'social convention' didn't call for it?" they muse to themselves?!. that is why they might have the idea of 'reducing family size' to weaken society. In fact society is instead very much weakened by enforced fragmentation and segregation with the community, due to imposed inhuman living conditions such as high-rise blocks with no proper communal centre, or inner city slums with nowhere for a functioning community to operare around, y'know motorways slicing through the middle of residential districts, chemical factories built right next to schools so the kids have to stay indoors, that kind of twisted stuff.

Sure there is data which points to smaller family sizes being less viable and less stable in a high stress situation, but I think that is vastly oversimplifying the picture, and is ignoring why there is this high-stress situation in the first place - its due to an ever increasingly ponerised environment.

if you look at some of the ancient civilisations and how they live, EVERYONE is treated as 'family' there is no such artificial distinction, so this throws the whole argument out - it is based on artificial, arbitrary and as far as I am concerned 'non-human' rules about how we 'ought' to live.
 
Thank you Laura with providing data, cold hard facts - at last.

Very interesting and informative - all of which I am aware of, including you comment in regards to me and my children being potentially fertilizers that will suffer painful deaths.

...And that relates to the general question as to whether having children improves or worsens the human condition, the question of the direct correlation between family size and the likelihood of their mundane 3D survival today (and during the momentary arrival of cataclysm) exactly how?

You do agree that there is a good chance for all of us to experiencing extensive cataclysm before the wave hits that will allow some to slip off to 4D, yes?

sleepyvinny said:
a psychopath will imagine that human beings will have closer interconnecting bonds within a family rather than outside the family, not for any real reason but just because it is 'social convention' to care for your family. this is completely missing the point that human beings care for one another because human beings care!!!
Most interesting remark and makes a lot of sense to me.

sleepyvinny said:
that is why they might have the idea of 'reducing family size' to weaken society.
... So what you are saying is that it very well could be that having less children for the sake of the environment is a scam by the pathocracy to further weaken the overall human condition, however the reality of our existence is not so and therefore in the end it will most likely not weaken the human condition?

Hmmm... very possible but as difficult to verify or falsify. I guess relay reading this guy Schirrmacher with that concept in mind might give some clues.

Thanks Vin.
 
FW, what exactly did Laura say that anart and Joe didn't already clearly elucidate? anart wrote:

I also think, at this point in history, that it is very selfish to have children - it is STS to have children right now
You replied that her entire post was a projection! But when Laura replies saying essentially the same thing, you thank her for "at last" providing some hard facts?!?! What was the difference? Why don't you reply to Laura with the same venom and self-importance that you did to anart and Joe? They all were implying the same idea - that having children in this day and age makes no sense and only seems to be a self-serving action, since if one knew the real terror of the situation they would recognize the truth - that more people makes for more food.

I see your reply to Laura as hollow. I would venture to guess that you still are highly identified with your point of view on this issue. I am still having a hard time understanding how you could be so aggressive towards one or two people and then be completely opposite towards another about the same point.
 
Thanks beau for your input.

I am starting to see my potential problem now and it is truly bizarre!

If it is REALY that you are all saying: "having children in this day and age makes no sense and only seems to be a self-serving action", then you (beau) are right and I should have treated all replies the same.

However that possibility indeed does not compute with me! Not because I have children but because it is as if you would say, to solve the problems of humanity we have to stop having one.

To me having children is as fundamental to humanity as having empathy.

If you ALL really think "it is STS to have children right now" than I truly lost the plot and I need to take a break from you guys altogether.

beau said:
I am still having a hard time understanding how you could be so aggressive towards one or two people and then be completely opposite towards another about the same point.
..because TO ME there where all different points and none of them addressing mine (except for SAO and SV).

I'm sorry, but I am not ready.

Good night and good luck.
 
Fifth Way said:
However that possibility indeed does not compute with me! Not because I have children but because it is as if you would say, to solve the problems of humanity we have to stop having one.
No, this is not the point. Joe already said that learning about ourselves psychologically and learning about psychopaths is the first thing that all people should do if they want to change the status quo. The point about not having children is more about having an awareness of the situation we are all in.

Fifth Way said:
To me having children is as fundamental to humanity as having empathy.
That sounds like some programming to me. I understand your point but it sounds like you are trying to rationalize why it's important, to you, to procreate. With the situation as it is right now, it's not.
 
If having children right now = STS it does not logically follow that not having children right now = solving the problems of humanity. So I'm not sure how you got that. We are food, and the only way out is Knowledge. Not having children is not the way out, it's just not contributing to the problem.

If eating = STS it does not logically follow that that starving ourselves to death = solving the problems of humanity.

The article that this thread is about does seem to suggest that humane depopulation is the best solution, but only because the "article" is unaware of the true nature of our problem.

Here is curious fact - did you know that giant pandas do not reproduce in captivity? They simply refuse to do it. You mention the Chinese and their human reproduction laws, so here's an interesting article:

hXXp://www(D)washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/24/AR2005112400743.html

Interestingly, they need to use artificial insemination to get these pandas to have babies (ironically, the article is about the Chinese doing it..). The panda does not solve its problem of captivity by refusing to reproduce, just as we do not solve the problems of humanity by having less or no children. But maybe we can learn something, maybe what is once a "natural behavior" becomes no longer natural for a Panda that finds itself captive - so why should humans, who are supposed to be "intelligent beings", live based on templates and programs instead of consciously adapting to the situation as needed? It's still mysterious to scientists why exactly Pandas behave this way. But the lesson we could learn from them is, perhaps what is natural and good in one circumstance is in fact evil and unnatural in another. The Pandas know the law of 3, why can't we?
 
SAO said:
If having children right now = STS it does not logically follow that not having children right now = solving the problems of humanity. So I'm not sure how you got that. We are food, and the only way out is Knowledge. Not having children is not the way out, it's just not contributing to the problem.

If eating = STS it does not logically follow that that starving ourselves to death = solving the problems of humanity.
No one is saying that such things do logically follow. Perhaps you could re-read Laura's post and Beau's post to help clarify - you seem to mixing subjects.
 
Back
Top Bottom