regarding: Children 'bad for planet' article on SOTT 05/07/07

Fifth Way said:
Hi Lynne

I'm almost done with 'The Drama of the Gifted Child' and due to recommendations of Laura in another context Gurdjieff's 'Meeting with Remarkable Men' is already printed out and in front of me. Apart from your list which is also my list their are at least 4 other books that have been recommended to me for specific reasons by Laura. And I am reading away in every free minute! Those minutes are tough to squeeze out as I have besides my two little children a 12 our job (where I m steeling hours for the forum and QFS like right now) a daily 1.5 hour commute (where I read) and about 6 hours of sleep. And then their are other issues that I shall discuss elsewhere.

I'm trying.

..have to get back to my day job now.
In the immortal words of Master Yoda: "Do, or do not. There is no 'try'."

Well, when you think about that, it's true. The fact is that you were also 'trying' at the beginning of this thread, before you had your realization. I've found that saying "I'm trying" is just another self-calming mechanism.

If one is only 'trying' and not 'Doing', then I would say that the methods and processes used to combat one's programming are simply not working, and must be re-evaluated.

In seeking a more objective view of ourselves and the world, trying isn't enough. Only Doing counts.

As for reading books, the ones you listed are certainly pretty darn useful. But you can read 1 million books and they will do you no good if you don't apply the information in our your own life.
 
Scott said:
If one is only 'trying' and not 'Doing', then I would say that the methods and processes used to combat one's programming are simply not working, and must be re-evaluated.
That seems to be in fact the case. I am reevaluating right now.
To KEEP trying however means not to give up - or so I hope.
 
I think trying implies consideration of a failure, which consideration is later used as an exuse. When you TRY DOING, it means you aren't convinced you KNOW HOW TO DO, but proceed with doing anyway. So why DO, when one isn't sure HOW TO DO yet? Look, before you leap.
 
j0da said:
I think trying implies consideration of a failure, which consideration is later used as an exuse. When you TRY DOING, it means you aren't convinced you KNOW HOW TO DO, but proceed with doing anyway. So why DO, when one isn't sure HOW TO DO yet? Look, before you leap.
My understanding is that in a certain sense trying is all we can "do". How can we guarantee success of a future action? Isn't that anticipation, assumption that we will succeed? I know how to catch a ball but I can never guarantee that I'll catch the next one. So it seems strange to say "I will catch it", it makes more sense to say "I will try to catch it" and then when it's time to catch, I'll either DO it, or I'll not do it, neither of which I can know ahead of time. Most people on the planet are "trying" to be good and to "make the world a better place". But we know that most of them are utterly failing at this, and only contributing to the direct opposite of their "intended goal".

So trying really is completely irrelevant, I can flap my arms all day and say I'm trying to fly and I will never fly. The guy next door will be constructing an airplane, and he will fly. We are both trying to fly, but only one of us will DO it, only one will succeed. So I guess the important question would be, what's the difference between us? Why do I think that what I'm doing will get me to my destination but I'm completely wrong, but he's not?

Maybe he has knowledge that I do not. Well that's true, if I think flapping my arms will get me to the sky one day, I'm clearly ignorant of a lot of things. But that guy was not born with the knowledge. What's stopping me from being like him and having the same knowledge? Well clearly I'm too busy flapping my arms and "trying to fly" to worry about that. So I guess the problem is, I am trying to bring the universe down to my level and make it DO something MY way, but he's not, he's trying to open himself up to the universe and DO what objectively has to be done to succeed, something only the universe can reveal. I have no faith. But he does have faith. Unless you use "faith" as religions do, then it's the opposite, mine is faith-based and his is not, but religions have purposely redefined it as the opposite for well known reasons. But if you use it the way C's use it, it would appear that he has faith in "his interaction with the creation" and I am content to flap my arms and say "I am doing my best" or "I am trying". Both of these phrases seem to put artificial limits where there are none. Nobody knows what their best is, perhaps there is no best and there is always room for improvement and maybe we really do have infinite potential, in which case saying "I did my best" has no meaning, and neither is "I am trying", osit.

In an even more obvious analogy, maybe I'm not even flapping my arms. Maybe I'm flinging my own poop at a wall and someone asks me what I'm doing I answer "Duh, trying to fly of course!". So maybe the next time someone says "I'm trying" it will help to imagine this scenario of someone flinging poop at a wall and proclaiming that they are trying to fly. It really means nothing whatsoever.

I guess trying is the same as intending. Intending is a necessary element to DO anything, but by itself is absolutely worthless and what you intend and what you DO can easily be completely opposite. Or rather, trying is doing something and intending for THAT action to achieve your goal. In other words, trying to tell the universe how that goal should be achieved, defining your own reality, having no faith.
 
Now you see it:

FW said:
Cyre2067, wow! Thanks
I see it now.
Now you don't:

FW said:
Even if I cannot see it, there is therefore a high probability that that is true. Naturally it is not my desire to be rude and even though I am not able to point out the specific incident myself, I can still apologizing as I can see by all the post that that is required.
I think the picture that I posted was probably the most offensive thing, but I am not sure.
As too 'attacks'. From my point of view my sacred cow was attacked so I was in the defense (the defense of my sacred cow that is). While that doesn't excuses it it my explain it. But I don't know.
Which is it FifthWay?
 
FW wrote:

Just to make it clear:

I made a horrible mistake by bringing to people in this world even though I KNEW how bad it really is. A mistake that cannot be corrected.

These to people are my children and will probably die some horrible death, most likely in front of my eyes while I'll be dying with them.

Well, that's actually not the main point here. Yes, seeing the terror of the situation is important, but the main thing is that you allowed your thinking and perceptions to be manipulated; you engaged in self-calming; you fell into confluence, you were internally considering and not externally considering, and all of this was wrapped up in some seriously distasteful moving center energy.

As was pointed out to you, this is not the first time...

So, what to really do about it?

Well, I think that reading Mme. De Salzmann's essay on the First Initiation and really taking it to heart, keeping it always firmly in mind, and before you put your mouth (typing fingers) in motion, you really need to examine yourself and make sure your brain is in gear.

Mme. De Salzmann wrote:

You will see that in life you receive exactly what you give. Your life is the mirror of what you are. It is in your image. You are passive, blind, demanding. You take all, you accept all, without feeling any obligation. Your attitude toward the world and toward life is the attitude of one who has the right to make demands and to take, who has no need to pay or to earn. You believe that all things are your due, simply because it is you! All your blindness is there! None of this strikes your attention. And yet this is what keeps one world separate from another world.

You have no measure with which to measure yourselves. You live exclusively according to “I like" or “I don’t like," you have no appreciation except for yourself. You recognize nothing above you—theoretically, logically, perhaps, but actually no. That is why you are demanding and continue to believe that everything is cheap and that you have enough in your pocket to buy everything you like. You recognize nothing above you, either outside yourself or inside. That is why, I repeat, you have no measure and live passively according to your likes and dislikes.

Yes, your “appreciation of yourself" blinds you. It is the biggest obstacle to a new life. You must be able to get over this obstacle, this threshold, before going further. This test divides men into two kinds: the “wheat" and the “chaff." No matter how intelligent, how gifted, how brilliant a man may be, if he does not change his appreciation of himself, there will be no hope for an inner development, for a work toward self-knowledge, for a true becoming. He will remain such as he is all his life. The first requirement, the first condition, the first test for one who wishes to work on himself is to change his appreciation of himself. He must not imagine, not simply believe or think, but see things in himself which he has never seen before, see them actually. His appreciation will never be able to change as long as he sees nothing in himself. And in order to see, he must learn to see; this is the first initiation of man into self-knowledge.

First of all, he has to know what he must look at. When he knows, he must make efforts, keep his attention, look constantly with persistence. Only through maintaining his attention, and not forgetting to look, one day, perhaps, he will be able to see. If he sees one time he can see a second time, and if that continues he will no longer be able not to see. This is the state to be looked for, it is the aim of our observation; it is from there that the true wish will be born, the irresistible wish to become: from cold we shall become warm, vibrant; we shall be touched by our reality.

Today we have nothing but the illusion of what we are. We think too highly of ourselves. We do not respect ourselves. In order to respect myself, I have to recognize a part in myself which is above the other parts, and my attitude toward this part should bear witness to the respect that I have for it. In this way I shall respect myself. And my relations with others will be governed by the same respect.

You must understand that all the other measures—talent, education, culture, genius—are changing measures, measures of detail. The only exact measure, the only unchanging, objective real measure is the measure of inner vision. I see—I see myself—by this, you have measured. With one higher real part, you have measured another lower part, also real. And this measure, defining by itself the role of each part, will lead you to respect for yourself.

But you will see that it is not easy. And it is not cheap. You must pay dearly. For bad payers, lazy people, parasites, no hope. You must pay, pay a lot, and pay immediately, pay in advance. Pay with yourself. By sincere, conscientious, disinterested efforts. The more you are prepared to pay without economizing, without cheating, without any falsification, the more you will receive. And from that time on you will become acquainted with your nature. And you will see all the tricks, all the dishonesties that your nature resorts to in order to avoid paying hard cash. Because you have to pay with your ready-made theories, with your rooted convictions, with your prejudices, your conventions, your “I like" and “I don’t like." Without bargaining, honestly, without pretending. Trying “sincerely" to see as you offer your counterfeit money.

Try for a moment to accept the idea that you are not what you believe yourself to be, that you overestimate yourself, in fact that you lie to yourself. That you always lie to yourself every moment, all day, all your life. That this lying rules you to such an extent that you cannot control it any more. You are the prey of lying. You lie, everywhere. Your relations with others—lies. The upbringing you give, the conventions—lies. Your teaching—lies. Your theories, your art—lies. Your social life, your family life—lies. And what you think of yourself—lies also.

But you never stop yourself in what you are doing or in what you are saying because you believe in yourself. You must stop inwardly and observe. Observe without preconceptions, accepting for a time this idea of lying. And if you observe in this way, paying with yourself, without self-pity, giving up all your supposed riches for a moment of reality, perhaps you will suddenly see something you have never before seen in yourself until this day. You will see that you are different from what you think you are. You will see that you are two. One who is not, but takes the place and plays the role of the other. And one who is, yet so weak, so insubstantial, that he no sooner appears than he immediately disappears. He cannot endure lies. The least lie makes him faint away. He does not struggle, he does not resist, he is defeated in advance. Learn to look until you have seen the difference between your two natures, until you have seen the lies, the deception in yourself. When you have seen your two natures, that day, in yourself, the truth will be born.

~ • ~

This essay was originally published in Gurdjieff: Essays and Reflections on the Man and His Teaching, New York: Continuum, 1996, edited by Jacob Needleman and George Baker, from the French edition compiled by Bruno de Panafieu. Earlier versions of this essay—sometimes under the variant title, The Only Exact Measure—have been incorrectly attributed to G. I. Gurdjieff.

Copyright © 2003 Gurdjieff Electronic Publishing
Featured: Fall 2003 Issue, Vol. VII (1)
Revision: November 1, 2003
 
Fifth Way said:
Why don't we stick with data and information:
You are making a serious error here. The devil is always in the detail. These are not just "data and information". This is SOME selected data (selected to make a point along a certain agenda) and then it is an INTERPRETATION.
An interpretation that is biased in a certain direction. The fact that you do not see it tells more about you than about the subject.
 
Laura said:
[...]before you put your mouth (typing fingers) in motion, you really need to examine yourself and make sure your brain is in gear.
Right!

I think it is best if I refrain myself from posting for the time-being and step back and do the work.

...there are a couple of thousand pages reading material in front of me and a lot of training in self-observation.

It does look like I am regressing rather than advancing, so that is problem.

I thank you all for putting up with me for such a long time. All of you have been really patient and invested a lot of time in thick-me to help me see but I am not living up to it.

The last thing I want to be is an energy-sink-hole for you all.

I hope that the fact that I have not been banned already and that my post have not been deleted means that you think there is some hope for me further down the line.

See you then.

Peace Out!
 
Fifth Way said:
I made a horrible mistake by bringing to people in this world even though I KNEW how bad it really is. A mistake that cannot be corrected.
These to people are my children and will probably die some horrible death, most likely in front of my eyes while I'll be dying with them.
I don't think you made a "horrible mistake" at all, in fact, I'm not entirely sure that there is such a thing - merely learning opportunities, which we all have access to.

This tends to suggest that the problem may be elsewhere and has to do with an emotional reaction to something within the self. It might be a good idea to figure out what it is, dig it up and examine it... :)
 
Hi Charles,

Charles said:
But do I feel guilty about this? No, maybe at times, but in general no. Besides, it can’t be undone and feeling guilty about it is very close to procrastination. I DO feel guilty at times for being too harsh, or absent-minded, or for forgetting that I am relating to another individual, most possibly with soul connection. And than I try to DO something about it, which usually comes down to be even more aware. But I do not regret, or feel guilty about the fact that I contributed in the process of making a physical vehicle in which a soul part can come to learn and be challenged.
When I thought deeper about these feelings, after writing this last post, I thought it was not exactly guiltiness I felt. While looking at my daughter and son, it's difficult to describe those feelings, really, cause they're so mixed. But as a parent, you must sure know what i'm talking about. A kind of sense of guiltiness comes when I think "coldly" about it, but when I look at them, what I feel is the best described by Laura's sentence, and one couldn't find better words :

Laura said:
After all, having children is like taking your heart out of your chest, giving it a pair of legs, and sending it to play in a room full of sharpened knives; the most joyful AND painful occupation known to humankind.
 
Afer visiting India in 2000 I learned that marriage is 'compulsory' at a certain age, and having children is too. As time progresses, the acceptable age for marriage and children becomes older, and it is easier to make alternative choices in the big city environment, yet there is still a lot of societal pressure. Having children is seen as a kind of insurance policy. Of course, males are favored in a society that requires a dowry from the brides family, and this does lead to infanticide. Among the uneducated masses it is uncommon to question one's ability to provide for the welfare of the child. Having children is little more than a survival mechanism.

In my mind there is no question that family loyalty has certainly aided survival and the accumulation of wealth, in the face of repressive rulers, and/or environmental hardship. It doesn't appear, however, that it does much to spiritually liberate people. Rather, it seems to inspire all kinds of compromises that oppress the soul, as the family structure is often modeled after our ponerized governments and religions - becoming a pyramidal structure that allows those on top to freely feed upon those on the bottom.

However, feeling guilt about bringing children into this world can make one easy prey. The challenge, as always, is to act on one's knowledge, whatever that may be at any point in time. There's no use feeling guilty because we didn't know something sooner. We are here to learn, which necessarily implies that we couldn't have already known everything.

People always say that the devil is in the details, but maybe the devil is also in generalizations. It seems to me that the world needs more of a certain quality of individual, who need to be nurtured by aware individuals. Perhaps making a choice to bring children into this hellish world, and assuming it is possible to raise a rare and exceptional being that can survive and help change the world for the better is presumptuous and can be called STS, but doing one's best to create an environment where that rare and exceptional being can grow and develop is admirable and STO.

Rather than beating ourselves up for past mistakes, we need to focus on rectification to the extent it's possible, which I think involves giving children the knowledge and tools to make life affirming choices, and giving them the freedom to decide for themselves.
 
Charles said:
Imagine, Prayers For Rain, or anybody, that your father or mother feels guilty for bringing you into this world. Imagine that this is not just something that is said during a quarrel or within a certain context. No, it is a profound feeling that is lived day in day out. What would that do with you? With your self esteem, with your moments of joy, or sadness and depression that have to be overcome? I do not know, because I do not know of any objective study or research and I can only imagine and empathise. But my educated guess says that it can’t be a very healthy situation, and definitely not a good foundation for what we CAN do (for our children).
Hi Charles,
I understand what you are saying here, and this is the last thing I would want for my son. My guilt is just about knowing that I have brought my son into a dangerous, dangerous place, where he may be "food" for 4D STS creeps. By far the overwhelming feeling that I have about having my son, though, is that he is the greatest joy and blessing of my life, and that he is loved, wanted and cherished every day.
 
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