regarding: Children 'bad for planet' article on SOTT 05/07/07

[Laura]

I'm confused here.

From what I understand from the C's transcripts ect, we come into this world because our soul chooses this experience, it is part of the cycle of the soul journey. If our parents didn't make the "choice", conscious or unconscious, to birth us, wouldn't our souls have birthed into some other body either on this planet or not?

Help with this concept and clarification would be appreciated.

Don't be confused. Yes, if I wasn't mother to my children and they wanted/needed to incarnate, they would find someone else. And so, in spite of the pain of what I see, this is the "balancing" comfort - that they did choose me and by various strange events, were born (3 of my five children were conceived on birth control!) And I think that better they should have me than someone else who might not feel the responsibility as keenly as I do.

So, there are various sides to every issue and no need to try to think in "black or white" "either/or" terms about it. I think that we can be human and grieve and at the same time follow that path that is most fruitful and finds joy in every tiny moment of shared love. After all, that's what the higher emotions are all about: feeling pain and ecstasy simultaneously.

After all, having children is like taking your heart out of your chest, giving it a pair of legs, and sending it to play in a room full of sharpened knives; the most joyful AND painful occupation known to humankind.

 

[ScioAgapeOmnis]

From what I understand from the C's transcripts ect, we come into this world because our soul chooses this experience, it is part of the cycle of the soul journey.

Yes but the soul only comes because there is an open slot available - someone being born. If we stop making babies, souls will stop coming in cuz they'll have nowhere to incarnate into.

If our parents didn't make the "choice", conscious or unconscious, to birth us, wouldn't our souls have birthed into some other body either on this planet or not?

I think they would, just not here. The universe is infinitely capable of taking care of itself, and any lesson a soul needs is available "somewhere" - but there is no need for all the lessons to exist in the same "place" just as STO civilizations are not obligated to provide STS lessons, there is no lack of lessons in an infinite universe. Just because pain teaches does not obligate you to punch people to provide that lesson. If someone needs the lesson of being punched rest assured that they there will never be a lack of people who have the urge to punch somebody, so that lesson is always there to experience if a soul needs it - the universe does not need you or anyone to "make sure" the experience exists and to provide it on its behalf.

And I think that souls are choosing this experience *here* because this experience is available here to be chosen due to the circumstances. It is upto us, collectively, what circumstances and as a result experiences exist on our world. Just because evil exists in this world does not mean we are in any way obligated to provide it with a continuous supply of souls simply because there are souls who need this particular experience. Because what about the souls that need the experience of a civilization that chooses not to give birth under STS control? Those wouls would not get these lessons here if we continue to give birth under the current circumstances. No matter what we do, we always provide only specific lessons and not others. If we choose STO we will not be providing STS lessons, but if we choose STS we won't be providing STO lessons, etc. So I don't think it makes any sense to worry about providing lessons - that is strictly in the hands of the infinitely capable universe. To me it it makes sense to act in favor of our own destiny, what we choose to do with our lives, with our existance. There will always be an unlimited supply of those who choose the opposite, and those who need the opposite will go where it is available, osit.

 

[anart]

I'm sorry I was rude and in your face. That was some big cow to kill. And the first to point it out gets it. I apologize.

Do you begin to realize what this says about your knowledge of your own machine and your level of control over your emotions and reactions?

Can you imagine learning about your machine and removing your cherished beliefs, programs and self-delusions without arrogantly and aggressively tearing down those around you? Your behavior in this thread was not ok - on any level - do you understand that? I ask because this sentence of yours indicates that you think it's all just 'how it goes'.

 

[Tigersoap]

I think that we can be human and grieve and at the same time follow that path that is most fruitful and finds joy in every tiny moment of shared love. After all, that's what the higher emotions are all about: feeling pain and ecstasy simultaneously.

After all, having children is like taking your heart out of your chest, giving it a pair of legs, and sending it to play in a room full of sharpened knives; the most joyful AND painful occupation known to humankind.

Thanks for summing up this.
It feels so weird to see both sides at the same time, I did not know if this was a normal behavior or if I was just too grim all the time. Sometimes I wanna cry but I feel kinda happy at the same time.

I also feel like I am with my wife, my kid on a very small boat about to capsize in the middle of the storm.
Still we're laughing and taking joy where we can find it.

uhm and typing (twice now) with my little girl on the knees is really joyful and painful at the same time, the space bar is too close from her hands.

 

[Fifth Way]

I'm sorry I was rude and in your face. That was some big cow to kill. And the first to point it out gets it. I apologize.

Do you begin to realize what this says about your knowledge of your own machine and your level of control over your emotions and reactions?

Can you imagine learning about your machine and removing your cherished beliefs, programs and self-delusions without arrogantly and aggressively tearing down those around you? Your behavior in this thread was not ok - on any level - do you understand that? I ask because this sentence of yours indicates that you think it's all just 'how it goes'.

I shall rephrase that sentence:

I'm sorry I was rude and in your face. That was some big cow to kill, probably the biggest one yet. Unfortunately due to my desperate attempts to keep this cow alive the first one pointing that cow out to me got. I apologize.

 

[j0da]

The point is, you were especially rude towards Anart, FW and I'm not surprised by her reluctance to accept apology, when you don't even adress her while saying "I'm sorry". What you say is

"Unfortunately due to my desperate attempts to keep this cow alive the first one pointing that cow out to me got"

and it's rather ambiguous, like an apology thrown at the wind, without looking someone in the eyes.

 

[anart]

Well, for what it's worth, I'm not really interested in an apology. What I was getting at is whether or not FW is able to make the connection between his behavior and his reaction machine - and what that means as far as his own self-knowledge and where he might be able to go from here.

Apologies are one thing, but actually learning from an experience and applying that learning to how you live your life and interact with others - especially when things are tough and difficult - is something entirely different. Gurdjieff had quite a bit to say about this.

This is not the first time that FW has lost his temper and gone on the attack - so my questions actually do have a purpose. Perhaps FW could answer them?

 

[Fifth Way]

This is not the first time that FW has lost his temper and gone on the attack - so my questions actually do have a purpose. Perhaps FW could answer them?

I reread my posts but am to mechanical, programmed and blind to see.

Which one is my offensive attack?

What is your question?

 

[Kel]

Thanks, Laura and SAO for your clarification. This is an issue I struggle with, it seems, almost every moment of every day being a SAHM. My first child came at the age of 29 as an "accident" following a car accident in which I was in a fog from pain medication and relaxants when my previous spouse who is clearly a severe narcissist decided he needed to get his needs met, therefore no birth control was used. At the time I was on my way out of the marriage, had almost finished my degree in English Education, and had definitely decided Kids were not in the picture. So, along came the first love of my life ( I say first, because I had definitely struggled with being able to love myself therefore anybody else). This kept me in the marriage another 4 years. Wow, the lessons learned. As you can imagine, the story is long and complicated as another marriage was chosen and two more "accidents" happened--a story that is of interest here mostly to myself. The pain and the joy of IT ALL is almost indescribable.

So I'm on this journey of lessons as we all are.

Currently, I'm having another paradigm shift learning about narcissism--mild, moderate, and severe as well as disassociative states. What a gift this is for me and my children. At least--and this is, at times, my only solace--they've chosen to come to me and I can expose them to what I've learned, am learning, and will learn. I have no illusions here, however, knowing that although I can live by example, and expose them to the truths, they will still chose what they will chose.

Like you said, Laura, you give them all your heart, let them go free, only to see that the lessons they will have to learn will be painful and all of the joy and pain may indeed be simply a food source for STS.

Would I choose to do this all again given the knowledge I have now? No. I feel like I'm part of herd of livestock that has been bred to feed an evil society. Only now, I know it. I suffer from waves of depression at times and am sure that I will be pulled under and taken away forever--or at least until the next incarnation--yuck. Ironically, my kids pull me back, their need, their joy, their moments.

If I could somehow escape this cycle now and be free, would I? No. I could not abandon my children. Would I escape if I didn't have children. No, I couldn't do that either, because if I had the knowledge of how to escape, I would definitely want to share with with other freedom-seeking souls and show them the way out as well.

So I'm commited to being a seeker. Thus, I'm here, on this web site, I'm staying up late at night reading reading reading, when I really could be making that scrap book, getting sleep, or making nice, neat, folded piles of my clean dishtowels.

 

[Nienna]

FW, I cannot answer for anart, but all throughout this thread, your posts have been aggressive, arrogant and rude. You are the only one who knows what you are talking about and everybody else is wrong, period. Your tone is severe, and you seem to be in attack mode to anyone (except Laura) who dares to contradict anything that you say.

And, as anart said, you have done this before. If you read something that contradicts what you BELIEVE, you become aggressive and put on your armor, and attack.

I have a question for you. Have you read any of the recommended psychology books that Laura has asked us to read? (And let me tell you something, if Laura suggest something, it is a given that we had better do it!) That would be:

Myth of Sanity
Trapped in the Mirror
Unholy Hungers
The Narcissistic Family
The Drama of the Gifted Child

If not, I think that this had better be put very high on your to-do list. You cannot understand how to start cleaning your machine without reading these very important books. And this is what Laura, herself, advises.

We all need to start to clean our machines. To understand the programs that we are running. And the only way to do this is TO START READING THIS MATERIAL. This is very, very important. Laura isn't just telling us how important this is just to hear herself talk. If you are really serious about the Work, start reading, folks.

 

[Fifth Way]

Hi Lynne

I'm almost done with 'The Drama of the Gifted Child' and due to recommendations of Laura in another context Gurdjieff's 'Meeting with Remarkable Men' is already printed out and in front of me. Apart from your list which is also my list their are at least 4 other books that have been recommended to me for specific reasons by Laura. And I am reading away in every free minute! Those minutes are tough to squeeze out as I have besides my two little children a 12 our job (where I m steeling hours for the forum and QFS like right now) a daily 1.5 hour commute (where I read) and about 6 hours of sleep. And then their are other issues that I shall discuss elsewhere.

I'm trying.

..have to get back to my day job now.

 

[anart]

This is not the first time that FW has lost his temper and gone on the attack - so my questions actually do have a purpose. Perhaps FW could answer them?

I reread my posts but am to mechanical, programmed and blind to see.

Which one is my offensive attack?

What is your question?

Ok, let's try this a different way since you do not understand. First, what were you apologizing for if you don't see your attacks?

Second, let's just start with one question - very simply put - have you learned anything about yourself and your machine from this thread?

 

[Cyre2067]

In your first post there was this

Well, thankfully not everybody holds this opinion. As am matter of fact sincere research (as so often) paints a very different picture:

Which to me implied the article on SOTT was insincere. Things put up on SOTT i hold in a higher regard then anywhere else, as the sincerity of those who manage the site is (for me) incomparibly pure to those who run other media sources. So basically here, you're trashing SOTT editors.

Then Joe pointed out your use of the China babies poster and that in and of itself was quite conversive.

You also asked anart whether or not she had children, which again, is conversive. If she does her point is valid, if not, invalid - at least those were the constraints i saw you manufacturing with that question. Considering the nature of the site, and the material you should have known better.

Fifth way, you are missing the point. We are not talking about having less children in a way that leads to babies being dumped on the street,

No? In what way are you talking about having less children? So you don't learn so well how to take care of others? So you better not experience true STS impulse?

It is always little steps. I thought we went trough that:

1. It is the over-population - Stupid.
2. We need less people.
3. We need less children.
4. Have 4 instead of 5.
5. Have 3 instead of 4.
6. Have 2 instead of 3.
7. Have 1 instead of 2.
8. Give tax cuts for less children
9. Make it mandatory law
10. Give a death sentence for violations
11. 7. Have 0 instead of 1. unless of course your genetic imprint has been approved for proliferation.
Hey, we have too many people. Its all because of those damned masses of people. But don't look over there (distribution, politics, hidden agendas, ... fill in the blank).

Joe, you've got to read the signs of the times!

Again, conversive thinking and the last part is an insult to Joe, or so it seems to me, esp considering he writes nearly half the focus material.

FifthWay, you are very emotionally charged on this issue - and taking the general disagreement here personally. It seems as if you have an emotionally vested interest in proving it is 'best' to have children - are you trying to convince yourself?

Your entire post is a complete projection, I am sorry to tell you.
You now even reject data of hand calling it ludicrous AND without supplying data to refute it. I think you may want to look at your vested interest of having no children (which I assume as you did not answer my simple question). Major denial I see. (Hey its good for the environment, right)
BTW The word "ludicrous" alone, gives away your emotional charge.

Here the data you've provided was abused by conversive thinking and abuse of sexual energy. Your emotional center's negative half was pricked and now your intellectual center is running wild with that usurped energy, creating all sorts of illusions and justifications. You're also flat out insulting anart.

Fifth - it seems to me you are emotionally charged on this issue and are abusing that energy with justifications from yer intellectual center. Reading the article and the subsequent posts in order you hop around the issue, starting off very opposed to the article itself, and then getting into a debate when you agree with what the other side has presented.

For my own elucidation - Did you read my post? What was your inner response?

Your most recent posts on this thread have been rude and borderline abusive which is something we work very hard to avoid on this forum.

Did you catch that? What was your inner response?

In your subsequent post you replied with:

Why don't we stick with data and information

and then posted a more lengthy excerpt, which to me says - I reject out of hand, all observations made by fellow forumites re: my behavior and will attempt to redirect the discussion away from said behaviors.

Then finally Joe and Laura chime in and you start to seemingly 'get it'.

Ran out of time... but that's what i saw in the first few pages.

 

[Mrs. Peel]

I will tell you this, though, if I knew then what I know now, I would never have had children. And my children are the most important things in my life and the reason I do what I do. It is a kind of desperation: I think, my god! what have I done?! I've brought you into the world, and now I learn what the world really is and where it is going, and so I must expend every ounce of my energy every day to try to do something about the screw-up.

The Cathars were right: it is almost a crime to bring a child into this world to perpetuate the suffering.

I just happened upon this thread today. All my reproductive years (which are past me now) I struggled with the thought that there was something really bad about me because I did not want to have children. I mean, it was what you did if you were female. To not want to reproduce a cute little baby was to be labeled some sort of monster. All I saw was sleepless nights, changing crappy diapers, going in debt, and basically giving up having any sort of a life of your own to run around chasing a screaming kid. Then they got older and you had a whole other set of problems...

And people thought *I* was crazy to want to skip this? ;)

I rationalized being able to live with myself for having such self-centerd thoughts by telling people that it was better I knew I'd be a lousy mother, than to have a child just because society expected it of me. I was saving an unborn child the misery of having me as an unwilling mother who could possibly abuse, neglect, and generally screw it up!

Lately, I've been wondering if my lack of interest in procreation and children in general stems from not wanting to pass on my own neurosis inherited from my narcissistic mother. doG forbid I pass on that litany, especially after reading the recommended psychology books. What I have learned, is that my antipathy towards children is a result of my own unresolved jealousy of them (at least the ones with normal, loving parents) which I've carried around with me for oh, like over 40 years. So, for whatever reason, I'm glad now that the reproductive buck stoped here (with me).

Whatever maternal feelings I have, are all geared towards my pets, especially the little guy you see scowling on the left. :)

 

[Fifth Way]

First, what were you apologizing for if you don't see your attacks?

For being rude in general, as that is the general consensus as that was said by a number of people. Even if I cannot see it, there is therefore a high probability that that is true. Naturally it is not my desire to be rude and even though I am not able to point out the specific incident myself, I can still apologizing as I can see by all the post that that is required.
I think the picture that I posted was probably the most offensive thing, but I am not sure.
As too 'attacks'. From my point of view my sacred cow was attacked so I was in the defense (the defense of my sacred cow that is). While that doesn't excuses it it my explain it. But I don't know.

have you learned anything about yourself and your machine from this thread?

Yes:

In my last post I lied to you all and of course mainly to myself. What really happened is this:

My wife and I spend sometime in a little house in the country here in the US (while our base was in Europe) in 2000 during the time Bush scammed himself into office. We where doing research into the true history of the world reading books nonstop for month. That was when the initial double whammy hit.
a. The psycho in power, b. we are just inside the matrix and reality is totally different.

That is when I started to have doubts about children. But our family plan was already set and agreed upon for years. It was a real dilemma I was battling with. Then we got pregnant and that was that. The experience of birth and having the child made me push all away except (and that is where I lied) it didn't go away. 911 and what followed made sure of that. I too became so much more sincere in my efforts to do something to make up for my mistake but in the end that is the kind of mistake that can NEVER be rectified.
All the feelings I described are true (SAO asked why they cannot be conveyed; because they are feelings that cannot be put in words) but now I understand that they are chemical nevertheless (like the high of a drug cannot be explained and also only experienced and that is just chemical as well).

Then my mother at some point sent me this stuff about Frank Schirrmacher and his book Minimum. And even though I did not read the book, not read the facts, not checked the facts, but only read about it, that information resolved all my troubles. Hey - I knew it - it is fine to have children. Not only fine, it is the ONLY right think on earth. Now I could go back to sleep.

And I did - despite knowing so much better. I took the bait hook, line and sinker.

Just to make it clear:

I made a horrible mistake by bringing to people in this world even though I KNEW how bad it really is. A mistake that cannot be corrected.
These to people are my children and will probably die some horrible death, most likely in front of my eyes while I'll be dying with them.

Cyre2067, wow! Thanks
I see it now. I don't agree too al of course (I'm not being wise here but honest) so I have to re read it a few times and let it all sink in.
It (him/FW) is pretty horrible to look at from this angle. Thanks Cyre2067 for being specific.