Romantic Fiction, Reality Shaping and The Work

[Approaching Infinity]

My thoughts on this thread is that we/people in particular young people have been bombarded for years with a twisted hyper sexualisation of existance that promotes anybody to do anything with whoever they please and that this is normal.
A good romance taps back into the male female dynamic and how it interacts with love.
My thought was this is what people can read to deprogramme themselves from the sickness the PTB have imparted on society.

I think these are really good observations, gottathink. I think we're all too familiar with the hypersexualization of modern culture. Unsurprisingly, it is a product of progressive/liberal 'values'. And ironically, there is a contradictory strand of puritanism from within the same culture. So on the one hand, there is a call to outright hedonism and promiscuity, a total lack of inhibition, and on the other, an authoritarian clampdown on those who engage in such behaviors. Lacking from either extreme is any kind of wholesome model for sexuality. (In conservative culture, you get a flipped dynamic - explicit prudishness and sexual repression masking over private perversion.)

Not only is there the routine saturation of media with sexual images, but when actual relationships are depicted, there is nothing healthy about them, more often than not. Whether in films or novels, the characters are just jerks. And that's why for me it reminds me of pornography, which is just sex divorced from any emotional context or healthy relationship dynamic. It is just random people who probably don't even know each other, and any narrative will be window dressing with absolutely zero depth.

I think the reason romance novels are so popular (at least among women), is that they depict things as the really are. They show what men and women really want, and what is lacking in our postmodern cultural productions and relationships. And even though it's mostly women who read them, it applies to guys too, if they're honest, or if they can grow up enough to see it in themselves and admit it.

 

[loreta]

To what I read till now, not much, I see the importance of the desire, something that is lacking personally in my life living with a man that is Asperger. But I recognise what is desire reading the beginning of "The Madness of Lord Ian Mackenzie by Jennifer Ashely, because in my other life I lived it. Also humour, how humour is important when you meet someone, humor and desire. A good combination. But as I told you, I am just at the beginning. Ian it seems to me is Asperger. Maybe I am wrong.

 

[kenlee]

I haven't read any books yet but will soon choose a series and begin reading it (I might start with 'Seven Nights'). From the efforts made in reading these books and observing our own reactions as we read we might exercise that part of us that will allow us to be more able to be impartial about ourselves and empathetic with others.

I think that at his point in time it's very important to understand what true normality is since everything is becoming so screwed up by the LBGT movement to horrific proportions. In my generation it was sex, drugs, rock and roll, that is, it was the beginning of the deviation from what real normalcy is in relationships, especially in sexual relationships. Take that trajectory and project it forward and the put it on steroids and that's what we got today with the influences of the LBGT movement.

I think its only thru psychological normalcy that the higher (objective) values from the higher spheres of reality are able to emerge into this reality. No chance if everything is corruption, crime and idiocy. I think that in the higher worlds we feel a quest for knowledge. In this lower world we might call it a 'romance' with knowledge since we are in human relationships. A true romance in this reality might very well reflect a true quest that's felt in a higher world. The former is a projection of the latter where at a higher level of reality it is one thing (a quest). At the lower level it's another thing (a romance). But the higher and lower are still inexorably connected together in normality.

If this earthly/natural world is a projection of the higher worlds onto a lower plane with more 'laws' added then there would be more external form to this world with less essential content then what we would find in the higher worlds. Reality loses something essential in going from a higher mode to a lower (but not all is lost). However, the higher and lower realities can be 'tuned' to each other so that essential values in the 'dense' higher world can take 'form' in this world without all the Libtard/LBGT type crap to seriously screw up the tuning process and the communication between the two worlds.

 

[Adaryn]

I have read about the half of the second Book of the series the Mackenzie. I like it even more than the first, probably because I relate more to Isabella. She and her husband love each other deeply and their relationship is really moving.

I've just started the second book, and like you, I like it more than the first (though I identify more with Ian from the first book, in certain aspects). I've only read 15%, but my impression is very positive. I just love Mac and Isabella, their spirit and liveliness. I also like how Mac (a painter) who had lost all creativity since Isabella left, how his creativity starts to flow again as soon as they start reconnecting. I also like how, despite being devastated by Isabella's departure, he's remained faithful and true to her. And the same for her.

 

[Laura]

I've just started the second book, and like you, I like it more than the first (though I identify more with Ian from the first book, in certain aspects). I've only read 15%, but my impression is very positive. I just love Mac and Isabella, their spirit and liveliness. I also like how Mac (a painter) who had lost all creativity since Isabella left, how his creativity starts to flow again as soon as they start reconnecting. I also like how, despite being devastated by Isabella's departure, he's remained faithful and true to her. And the same for her.

I really loved the Mackenzie series and read all of them. I was sad when I came to the end. Despite the crazy titles and covers, they are about some truly interesting, honorable, people with normal, healthy desires expressed in healthy ways. That is true for all the books I've selected and recommended. Yes, I came across a few authors who wrote real trash and didn't even save them on my kindle: gonzerooni.

 

[ryu]

Neil, your internal dialogue is incredibly similar to my own - and I've been having those conversations with myself for some time. I've been in conflict with myself over that particular issue. It's a constant struggle, a thorn in my side, an uphill battle. A sore spot that is pressed over and over, demanding attention. And the question that keeps coming back: "What should I do about it? How can I deal?" And the thoughts: "I may long for it, but I'm not ready. Actually, I'm not sure I even want it. It will never work. I'd rather be alone. It is safer that way. This is my resolution: I will stay alone. It is the right thing, the proper thing, the moral thing to do." It may work for a while, but it's only a patch-up. The issue, the internal conflict are still there, unresolved.

I've come to some realizations while reading The Madness of Lord Ian MacKenzie. It comes down to fear. It sounds obvious and simple, but practically, it's not. The character, Ian, is afraid that he can't love Beth - he believes he's incapable of love – and that he might / will hurt her eventually. He's also afraid that she won't love him, not like she loved her first husband, because he's mad, he's a freak. But he still asks her to marry him, just so (and that's what he says to himself) he can have something real in his life that'll bring him peace: her beside him. An anchor. He thinks he can only give physical love, so he gives her that. Yet his actions, the way he behaves with her (protecting her, being afraid for her, thinking of her well being) show that he's actually capable of love, and is learning. She's teaching him, by showing she accepts him exactly as he is. In the end, he finds peace, and tells her that she has set him free. He was plagued by shame, which made him incapable of looking at people directly, always averting his eyes. In the end, he's finally able to look into her eyes because the shame is gone. As Laura said, it's very symbolic.

You can only learn through practice. That's not to say any of us should just hook up with the first guy or girl that we "like" and who crosses our path – or start dating or whatnot. I still have no answer to how we're supposed to deal with those energies of longing/yearning. But who knows what certain realizations and resolutions of internal conflicts through reading those stories and reflecting upon them might bring for us (I mean, those of us who are struggling with it) both personally and on a more global level?

I also got an internal dialogue with "my little voice". I have loved before and even if I couldn't be with this person, I grew into a better woman, loving someone else made me remember I had a soul. I felt like I had betrayed that love by letting myself be cynical about sex and relationships. I also thought that I would never love so deeply again and that it was useless to look for another. I was grieving without realizing it. These Books are a desintox cure from the post-modernist BS it seems .

I also had a nice coïncidence yesterday regarding this romance thing. I spoke with one of my best friend and for the first time since I know her, she talked to me about the intimacy part of her marriage. I knew she landed herself a good man and I saw both of them become better people thanks to their marriage. She's discreet by nature, so I was nicely surprised when she became quite poetic about the intimacy, the care, the devotion they had for one another. It warmed my heart that she could experience something so beautiful. When I told her so, she responded that she knew I was truly happy for her and that's why she told me. She and her husband had been very secretive about how good they had it, because they had quickly found out that others could get easily resentful when they had begun to sing each others praises to the sky. Maybe that's why we don't hear more about real-life love stories, because those who live it protect and treasure it above all else. "Don't cast you pearls to the swines"

As for the Polar opposite thing, It seems, when one is reading Mouravieff, that it is extremely rare to meet his/hers. If I remember well, meeting your Polar opposite means you're getting near to level up to 4D. I am not expecting to meet mine (at least not too much), because I don't know what this lovely person is up to. Maybe he/she is already in 4D and I'm the slacker of the pair, maybe I won't upgrade to 4D in this life, maybe he/she is not done with 3D etc etc...

 

[loreta]

I really loved the Mackenzie series and read all of them. I was sad when I came to the end. Despite the crazy titles and covers, they are about some truly interesting, honorable, people with normal, healthy desires expressed in healthy ways. That is true for all the books I've selected and recommended. Yes, I came across a few authors who wrote real trash and didn't even save them on my kindle: gonzerooni.

We are really lucky to have a person who select good books in this genre. There are sooooo many books and authors that without a guide we will never find the good ones. And surely Amazon is in amazing of how suddenly many romantic books are sold, they surely say: what the heck is happening!

 

[Deleted member 11729]

Can we please stick to the topic of this thread?! Thank you.

yes sure, thank you ... even though it is a topic

 

[echo]

I have just finished Seven Nights. The last 30% is different from the first part. They are dealing with their issues in the world instead of just having sex all the time. It was a much easier read. It was beautiful when Sidonie said to Jonas to look in his heart and know that he could trust her. I agree that she was the heroine in the story. Anna Campbell is different from Mary Balogh. I think I like Balogh more, but I will continue to read all the books. Very interesting to hear everyone's thoughts on it plus the latest session. Reading is helping me work out a lot of my emotional stuff it seems. It's making me feel lighter and less gloomy and is helping me consider all my relationships and how to learn lessons and stay in integrity. Sort of a feeling of things falling into place. I'm happy and surprised that this gift came at such a dark time!

 

[3DStudent]

I created the sheet with author, book series, book name what version (audio, ebook etc.) of the book available in HooplaDigital, Overdrive with hyperlinks.

Do any of those services let you have an mp3? I'd need the mp3, as I would plan on speeding it up and putting it on an old iPod. I looked into Hoopla and it seems you can only download it to a mobile device, and the file is encrypted so no editing possible.

I may have to just go with Audible.

 

[Rabelais]

There are so many stories... Even every imagined story has in its components parts of the creator's experience. We cannot create by isolating ourselves from our own being, we create with what we are and surely in the stories we tell there are small parts of ourselves or fragments of someone else's experience.

Well, with science fiction we see that what was merely in the realm of imagination, today is found to be a reality that we are just discovering. We have yet to tele-transport! It is incredible how much fiction technology is being implemented or at least studied in our present. But as Laura says, we must be careful and "pull the rug out from under us when we read".

When I discovered kindle I found a trove of young, semi-unknown sci-fi writers creating some very good fiction, with strong and noble men working and interacting with women of the same caliber to thwart evil. Of course there is no shortage of writers churning out rubbish. And yeah, some had editors who had saddled their work with lurid cover art and titles that did not honestly reflect the content. Literary click bait as it were. Anyway, some of these writers seem very attuned to the constant struggles between STS and STO, as well as many other concepts collinear to the messages of the Cs, e.g., gravity, quantum consciousness, etc. I have found this to also be happening with new writers working in a Tom Clancy-type genre; men and women working in intelligence or military special forces environments, uncovering the corruption and greed of the people above their pay scale, and struggling against all odds to expose it.

I had never been attracted to romance novels, although I did enjoy Pride and Prejudice, but that was literature written in another era and the literary style alone was interesting, although the story had some great moral lessons. Laura has piqued my curiosity now. I'll have to overcome my confirmation bias and see what I have been missing.

EDIT : Hmm I don't know what I am doing wrong with my Stella Marys quote.

Mod edit: quote fixed

 

[Mari]

I´m on the last, 4th book Sons of Sin series.
I´ll try not to reveal a lot of spoilers....

2. Book: A Rake's Midnight Kiss by Anna Campbell

Second book was just beautiful. I loved the characters and their development, their sacrifice and their internal beauty.
Richard would never forgive his mother if he hadn´t felt his love he feels for Genevive.
The end brought me to tears when Richard finally founds his peace with himself and with his mother. That end was the peak of emotion.
The making love parts didn´t affect me as it was in the first book; they only brought sense of love, beauty and two souls bonding together.

3. Book: What a Duke Dares by Anna Campbell

The third book was even better! I loved the adventure parts and how they revealed the feelings of the characters.

Oh, how stubborn they were....
But one cannot blame Cam; he was a bastard all his life and a Duke no less! (I´ve actually had to search online noble titles at one point to get familiar with the ranks. I.e. Noble Titles and Ranks in a Monarchy)
The shame was his companion all his life and he´ve grown to be proud and emotionless.
All his life trying to be perfect a cold.

I think the point where he cracked his cold hart was:

He reminded himself that coaxing his wife to pleasure wouldn’t be quick or easy. But the reward was worth it. He didn’t do this only for himself. He did it for Pen. Such a sensual woman shouldn’t fear a man’s touch. She should revel in it. He’d make her forget that he’d ever hurt her. “Tonight I’m going to show you paradise.”

How I see this; the point here is not about satisfying a woman, but he completely put himself in a position to give himself to her. From that act of giving, he would be given too. Not that he knew that, but it is a simple example how doing things from your deepest soul urges lead to something beautiful.
So this wasn´t an act of ultimate pleasure for her or him, but a start of a circle of giving oneself and being given in return.


#####

As I was reading these books I‘ve noticed the same pattern; people were hurt on both sides, but not love was the key to happy ending - it was honesty, courage, understanding, opened conversation and compassion. Those were the keys to that unlocked all problems.

And then look at the people today; they are missing all of that.
Divorce numbers are rocketing and people are so self centered that on first sign of trouble they flee.
And who is getting married today? Self-centered millennials, mama´s boys and daddy´s girls....
"Everybody is a winner", "one is always right", "no man can tell you what to do" and that kind of motto to raise up children...

There is nothing today about values like compassion, empathy and basic conversation, where one can talk out: "ok, that was good, that was bad, but here was the situation...."
Nobody talks to each other today.
And I even don´t want to go here in the perverse and twisted vision of sex and partnership that is presented as normal today.
In these stories, there are always specific situations seen from angle of every character, but the will, the courage and honesty to talk about things is what prevails and saves story to happy end....


These books gave me one more push to make my own relationship working.
I wanted to write about it here many times but my ego and lack of courage failed me.
Enough to say now for the sake of this topic is that we‘ve both been very hurt; he hurt me deeply and then I´ve hurt back.

After reading these books I´ve got the push and means for realizing happily ever after possibility and to give one more try to wake that really deep love I´ve felt and then buried.
...so, God, help me....

 

[Saman]

[...]
Basically, it is spiritual alchemy - via romance novels.

The discussion so far reminds me of another thing Gurdjieff said: in addition to having the lower centers in order, one should be free of sexual neuroses. I think this is because in order for sexual energy to circulate and flow where it should, and to catalyze inner transformations and transmutations, all the blockages must be cleared, and I suspect these blockages can be at several different levels for different individuals, and sensed within the body at those levels (e.g., at the level of the genitals, belly, solar plexus, heart, throat).

Sex energy can be purely 'physical' and remain on a low level - this is just the pure animal response which can be triggered by sexual imagery or imagination. But embedded within a narrative, emotions can be triggered too - conflicts, neuroses, blocks in communication - by engaging with the depiction of 'real people' in the corresponding circumstances. So now you have emotions that can be sensed and felt in the body, e.g. abdomen. And through the resolution of these conflicts in the story, this resolution can take place within you as well. And the resulting state of harmony and love can be felt in the heart and head. It's like the story guides these activations of energy within one's body. Sex is activated, emotions of conflict are activated, but they are sublimated through truth, understanding, and love, reaching up to the impulses of the higher centers. Like repeated alchemical distillations and processes, resistances can be overcome and blockages cleared - at least that's the theory!

For Gurdjieff, "si 12" was the energy of sex. Here's some of what he said about it in ISOTM as a reminder, and keeping in mind the limitations of his presentation in strictly material terms:

[...]
"Is complete sexual abstinence necessary for transmutation and is sexual abstinence, in general, useful for work on oneself?" we asked him.

"Here there is not one but a number of questions," said G. "In the first place sexual abstinence is necessary for transmutation only in certain cases, that is, for certain types of people. For others it is not at all necessary. And with yet others it comes by itself when transmutation begins. I will explain this more clearly. For certain types a long and complete sexual abstinence is necessary for transmutation to begin; this means in other words that without a long and complete sexual abstinence transmutation will not begin. But once it has begun abstinence is no longer necessary. In other cases, that is, with other types, transmutation can begin in a normal sexual life—and on the contrary, can begin sooner and proceed better with a very great outward expenditure of sex energy. In the third case the beginning of transmutation does not require abstinence, but, having begun, transmutation takes the whole of sexual energy and puts an end to normal sexual life or the outward expenditure of sex energy.

... only a person who is completely normal as regards sex has any chance in the work. Any kind of 'originality,' strange tastes, strange desires, or, on the other hand, fears, constantly working 'buffers,' must be destroyed from the very beginning. Modem education and modem life create an enormous number of sexual psychopaths. They have no chance at all in the' work.

"Speaking in general, there are only two correct ways of expending sexual energy— normal sexual life and transmutation. All inventions in this sphere are very dangerous.

This last bit suggests to me that reading novels of this sort can trigger these neuroses, and help work through them. First, by removing some of the negative associations acquired by the sex center, and then through a working in concert with higher, positive emotions.

As for the books themselves, I was waiting for some hardcopies to arrive, but decided to get some kindles in the meantime - so I'll get started today! Will report back.

I've ordered the Kindle version of Laura's (at the point of posting) three favorite books mentioned on page 8 of the thread. I haven't yet read them since I am still striving to catch up on this thread, among other readings, like the Wave chapter 22 for this coming Saturday. Anyways, your quote serving as reminder by G brought to mind this section from my notes by don Juan on sexual energy, and it seems to me what you quoted G on in regards to abstinence above corroborates what don Juan said about it too, and vice versa:

From some of my notes on the book by Carlos Castaneda, The Fire From Within from maybe a year ago (note: DJ is short for don Juan and and I've edited Carlos speaking in first person in my notes to his name in third person):

"The degree of awareness of every individual sentient being depends on the degree to which it is capable of letting the pressure of the emanations at large carry it." DJ said after a long pause and for in which he appeared to be struggling against an invisible force, a fire from within that intended to consume him.

After a long interruption, DJ continued explaining that seers "saw" that from the moment of conception awareness is enhanced, enriched, by the process of being alive. He said that seers "saw", for instance, that the awareness of an individual insect or that of an individual man grows from the moment of conception in astoundingly different ways, but with equal consistency.

"Awareness develops from the moment of conception. I have always told you that sexual energy is something of ultimate importance and that it has to be controlled and used with great care. But you have always resented what I said, because you thought I was speaking of control in terms of morality: I always meant it in terms of saving and rechanneling energy."

DJ looked at Genaro. Genaro nodded his head in approval.

"Genaro is going to tell you what our benefactor, the nagual Julian, used to say about saving and rechanneling sexual energy" DJ said to Carlos.

"The nagual Julian used to say that to have sex is a matter of energy, " Genaro began, "For instance, he never had any problems having sex, because he had bushels of energy. But he took one look at me and prescribed right away that my peter was just for peeing. He told me that I didn't have enough energy to have sex. He said that my parents were too bored and too tired when they made me; he said that I was the result of very boring sex, "cojida aburrida". I was born like that, bored and tired. The nagual Julian recommended that people like me should never have sex; this way we can store the little energy we have.

"He said the same thing to Silvio Manuel and to Emilito. He "saw" that the others had enough energy. They were not the result of bored sex. He told them that they could do anything they wanted with their sexual energy, but he recommended that they control themselves and understand the Eagle's command that sex is for bestowing the glow of awareness. We all said we had understood.

"One day, without any warning at all, he opened the curtain of the the other world with the help of his own benefactor, the nagual Elias, and pushed all of us inside, with no hesitation whatsoever. All of us, except Silvio Manuel, nearly died in there. We had no energy to withstand the impact of the other world. None of us, except Silvio Manuel, had followed the nagual's recommendations."

"What is the curtain of the other world?" Asked Carlos.

"What Genaro said--it is a curtain," DJ replied. "But you're getting off the subject. You always do. We're talking about the Eagle's command about sex. It is the Eagle's command that sexual energy be used for creating life. Through sexual energy, the Eagle bestows awareness. So when sentient beings are engaged in sexual intercourse, the emanations inside their cocoons do their best to bestow awareness to the new sentient being they are creating."

DJ said that during the sexual act, the emanations encased inside the cocoon of both partners undergo a profound agitation, the culminating point of which is a merging, a fusing of two pieces of the glow of awareness, one from each partner, that separate from their cocoons.

"Sexual intercourse is always a bestowal of awareness even though the bestowal may not be consolidated," he went on. "The emanations inside the cocoon of human beings don't know of intercourse for fun."

Genaro leaned over toward Carlos from his chair across the table and talked to him in a low voice, shaking his head for emphasis.

"The nagual is telling you the truth, he said and winked at Carlos. "Those emanations really don't know."

Don Juan fought not to laugh and added that the fallacy if man us to act with total disregard for the mystery of existence and to believe that such a sublime act of bestowing life and awareness is merely a physical drive that one can twist at will.
Genaro made obscene sexual gestures, twisting his pelvis around, on and on. Don Juan nodded and said that was exactly what he meant. Genaro thanked him for acknowledging his one and only contribution to the explanation of awareness.

Both of them laughed like idiots, saying that if Carlos had known how serious their benefactor was about the explanation of awareness, he would be laughing with them.

Carlos earnestly asked DJ what all this meant for an average man in tge day-to-day world.

"You mean what Genaro is doing?" He asked Carlos in mock seriousness.

Their glee was always contagious. It took them a long time for them to calm down. Their level of energy was so high that next to them, Carlos thought he seemed old and decrepit.

"I don't really know," DJ finally answered Carlos. "All I know is what it means to be warriors. They know that the only real energy we possess is a life-bestowing sexual energy. This knowledge makes them permanently conscious of their responsibility.
"If warriors want to have enough energy to "see", they must become misers with their sexual energy. That was the lesson nagual Julian gave us. He pushed us into the unknown, and we all nearly died. Since everyone of us wanted to "see", we, of course, abstained from wasting our glow of awareness."

Carlos had heard DJ voice that belief before. Every time he did, he and Carlos got into an argument. Carlos always felt compelled to protest and raise objections to what he thought was a puritanical attitude toward sex.

Carlos again raised his objections. Both of them laughed to tears.

"What can be done with man's natural sensuality?" Asked Carlos of DJ.

"Nothing. There is nothing wrong with man's sensuality. It's man's ignorance of and disregard of his magical nature that is wrong. It's a mistake to waste recklessly the life-bestowing force of sex and not have children, but it's also a mistake not to know that in having children one taxes the glow of awareness."

I also have some other thoughts on this subject in relation to what Ouspensky mentioned his book "A New Model of the Universe" about "Infra Sex", "Normal Sex", and "Supra Sex", etc., which I briefly first mentioned back in 2006 on the forum and more recently in the Mascilulanity thread, but yeah, at this point I think and feel it is best to just keep reading the thread until I catch up and also start with Laura's three favorite books. Thank you from the "heart" Laura for starting this thread.

 

[Laura]

I also have some other thoughts on this subject in relation to what Ouspensky mentioned his book "A New Model of the Universe" about "Infra Sex", "Normal Sex", and "Supra Sex", etc., which I briefly first mentioned back in 2006 on the forum and more recently in the Mascilulanity thread, but yeah, at this point I think and feel it is best to just keep reading the thread until I catch up and also start with Laura's three favorite books. Thank you from the "heart" Laura for starting this thread.

No, don't read my "three favorite books" out of sequence. "The Perfect Stranger" is part of a series, so read the series in order. And I think you (and everyone) should read some of the series BEFORE you read "Heartless" and "Silent Melody." All three of these are harrowing stories.

 

[AdamJM]

What are peoples thoughts on chuck palahniuk? Was a big fan in college. I was always intrigued by the ammount of idras contained in his books, especially as he takes his inspiration from the real life jobs he worked. I guess if you think about it, fight club is a romantic novel, and at the end the world is definitely changed...... His work is very grim though. He does sort of embody the phrase truth is stranger than fiction, especially when you read the things that were cut in editorial for being to outlandish that were taken from real events.