Sam Vaknin - Narcissist or "I, Psychopath"?

[Gimpy]

Re: Sam Vaknin - Narcissist or Psychopath?

The only long term answer is accountability and regulation. A whole level of, abuse and mental health related support that is, self appointed, unregulated and unaccountable is the same kind of madness as having an online "ER" where medical emergencies are advised by anyone who sets themselves up as a Doctor

Accountability I can agree on. More regulation? I'm not convinced that would help. Psychopaths are rife in the mental health fields, and defend their 'turf'. Fighting them head on online doesn't work. Sniffing them out in person is 'quicker', which is why they go online in the first place....its easier.

Seeking to regulate support groups online could have a chilling effect on normal people...but would it really work on the psychopathic and N's? I don't think so.

Looking for a counselor online is the same, in my thinking, as seeking to date online. It's ill advised on both counts. Learning how to spot the warning signs of unhealthy people to find a decent support group would work.


osit

 

[mechanima]

Re: Sam Vaknin - Narcissist or Psychopath?

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[Gimpy]

Re: Sam Vaknin - Narcissist or Psychopath?

THere are always going to be risks, there will always be someone who can find a way to abuse any system in place (Vaknin did that for years until people, eventually, caught on to him).

No amount of regulation will solve that, but on the other hand, the absence of regulation just makes it worse.

Let me back up, what kind of regulation do you mean?

I would also take issue with diagnosing predators and abusers as "psychopaths and Ns". Whether a person is psychopathic, whether a person pathologically narcissistic or not is their own private business...it is whether a person chooses to prey on, and/or abuse others that is a problem.

Where did I diagnose anyone? Predators, by nature, prey on others. That's what they do.

Others in this thread have already alluded to the toxic behavioural cocktail of PTSD, co-dependency and a few forms of dysfunction, that can manifest to such devastating effect in online groups, and does so many times more often than true psychopathy or pathological narcissism.

How would regulating online support groups address this issue? And who's going to do that?

The focus should not be on witchunting (frequently amateur, clueless) diagnoses, it should be on minimalising abuse and revictimisation.

I'm not sure where you got witch hunting or amateur diagnosis out of what I said?

All I am saying is, if someone is looking for a support group, or counseling, it makes sense to do so in person. Seeking it online when one is reeling and vulnerable isn't a good idea.

 

[mechanima]

Re: Sam Vaknin - Narcissist or Psychopath?

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[Filachi]

Re: Sam Vaknin - Narcissist or Psychopath?

Onlooker,

Yeah, I guess we can't blame SamV for everything.

" But Patricia has often had a curious habit of keeping a pet abuser or two around on her site. Some people are just weird! "

Ahhh, this is what I have wondered about with AAC. Why do the same people, who aren't contributing money (not obviously, anyway) allowed to stay at a site, repeat the same behaviours, charm/abuse, bullying, under the original name or under new nicks? Even when their behaviour runs so many people off? It almost seems that the site really wants the contrary, argumentative ones there.

Ok. I can step out of my box of thinking its for research ( for a few) - there are all sorts of people. All sorts of personality types, and we behave and interact with them differently - so I wonder if the site(s) allow these different and extreme types of posters, this mix, for the sake of the community - learning from interacting and watching the exchanges, etc.

Wow, leaping out of my box thinking it's all research to it's all artruistic and for the good of the community. That's pretty black/white, isn't it? ha. ha.

 

[Filachi]

Re: Sam Vaknin - Narcissist or Psychopath?

Mechanima said this - "Absolutely true...but that doesn't solve the ongoing problem of vulnerable people getting sucked into toxic *support* communities, because they don't realise they are toxic...and that problem is serious enough to need addressing."


This is a drawback to any support group, online or offline, I suppose. A friend of mine joined a live support group for people who were sexually abused as young children. Many, herself included, had been diagnosed as BPD. She finally felt comfortable enough to talk about her abuse, got suppport, made some good friends. It became a network for her outside the group, calling each other to vent, helping each other out. There were a couple of members who started interacting with the group in the only way they knew, gossiping, spreading rumors, etc., and before long, the whole group was tore up from the floor up, and nearly disbanded. They finally worked through the problems, and the troublemakers left, unable to take responsibility for? admit? their behaviour, or change it so they could continue with the group.

Sometimes I think art imitates life, if you think of online as the art or the projection, and since these behaviours are at work, in my family, and have affected me, watching has taught me a lot.

 

[mechanima]

Re: Sam Vaknin - Narcissist or Psychopath?

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[Gimpy]

Re: Sam Vaknin - Narcissist or Psychopath?

mechanima:

Which is why it is more accurate, and realistic, to just call them predators than to use medical diagnoses, incorrectly, as synonymous pejoratives...a diagnosis ain't about what you do, it is just about why you do it.

Claiming that diagnosis is "what you do" is just full on "Way of Vaknin"...

What?

I don't think we're communicating very well.

I'm not referring to a psychopath in medical terms, or an "N" in medical terms. To me that is the difference between predatory types, like the difference between a lion and a leopard. True, not all "N"s are conscious predators, but in many cases, that shoe fits.

Absolutely true...but that doesn't solve the ongoing problem of vulnerable people getting sucked into toxic *support* communities, because they don't realise they are toxic...and that problem is serious enough to need addressing.

How will anyone learn what a toxic group is if they don't actually experience one?

It would be neat if just reading about the warning signs of same would make a difference, but that seldom happens. Regulation of online communities, as you've stated it, sounds like wishful thinking to me.

The exact kind of regulation that might, at least serve to limit this is a complex issue nobody can be expected to devise, single handed, for the sake of posting on a bbs.

In other words, you don't know how it would work either? :D

That is my point mechanima: trying to regulate online behavior in a support group is unrealistic.

 

[mechanima]

Re: Sam Vaknin - Narcissist or Psychopath?

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[anart]

Re: Sam Vaknin - Narcissist or Psychopath?

Hi mechanima,

You seem to be getting a little worked up over this and there does not appear to be any reason for it.  It is almost as if you feel as if you are being attacked, which I do not think is the case.  It appears that 'Gimpy' is just questioning the logic and practicality of broad regulation of something as organic and often unpredictable as online support groups - especially considering the wide spread high-level presence and influence of pathologicals in the 'support' and therapeutic communities. 

It also appears that you and Gimpy have, if not the same take on it, then a very close 'take on it' - but you are rather stuck in semantics and 'nit-picking'.  Perhaps a deep breath might be in order.

Gimpy,

To recap:

1. What words like "psychopath" and "N" actually mean doesn't matter because you will use them to mean whatever you like. (Just a thought, but you might want to consider a hard limit on extending that rule to words like "chamberpot" and "teacup"?)
2.  Any persistence in adhering to the conventional, accepted meaning of words rather than the meaning you wish to attribute to them = "not communicating very well".
3.  Unless people are forced to experience a toxic online community there is nothing to be achieved by regulating online communities.
4.  Trying to regulate online communities is unrealistic unless I can draft effective legislation, on a bbs, in a couple of hours, while doing several other things.

Have I understood you so far? Or would you like to offer further clarification?

 

[mechanima]

Re: Sam Vaknin - Narcissist or Psychopath?

You seem to be getting a little worked up over this

No, not really, why on earth would you think that?

I always find arguments based on invalid premise manipulative and irritating, but in the "sets my teeth on edge" range, not in the "getting worked up" range.

I don't think Gimpy actually means what you think she means (and if she did I wouldn't agree with that either. So you can't have understood what I meant either.)

I don't agree with people misusing medical terms as perjoratives, never have, never will, and I cannot see one single realistic justification for it.

I don't think the fact that is isn't easy to regulate a potentially destructive thing means we shouldn't try...

I realise that you are a "supermoderator" and what you actually expect me to do is submit to whatever you say as part of a, perfectly normal, social ritual concerned with group integration, but, frankly, I am not here to find a place within a group (I am autistic, it would sorta creep me out to have one), I am just here to stick to the facts...in case they help someone else avoid or escape the abuses under discussion.

So if you want to "cut to the chase" and ban me for non-compliance with the group dynamic now I will quite understand.

:)

 

[Gimpy]

Re: Sam Vaknin - Narcissist or Psychopath?

mechanima:

Have I understood you so far?

No.

Or would you like to offer further clarification?

Anart summed it up well here:

It is almost as if you feel as if you are being attacked, which I do not think is the case. It appears that 'Gimpy' is just questioning the logic and practicality of broad regulation of something as organic and often unpredictable as online support groups - especially considering the wide spread high-level presence and influence of pathologicals in the 'support' and therapeutic communities.

My intention isn't to attack you mechanima, its to point out that regulation of online support groups, or any online community, is impractical. Forum rules and moderators exist for this reason.

And we do have a close 'take on it': The last place I'd look for support for psychological trauma is online. I'd go find a competent psychotherapist. (Which I've done a number of times) I do what I can to be clear in my communications here on the forum, and I do have days when that's not easily done. I read only most of those days.

3. Unless people are forced to experience a toxic online community there is nothing to be achieved by regulating online communities.

I've learned that its not up to me to 'save' anyone, because that is interfering in the life decisions of another. From what you've posted, it appears you want to 'save' other people from being hurt by online predators, and that's an impossible task, when you think it through.

No one is being 'forced' to experience toxic online communities. People are free to choose. More regulations and rules would restrict that choice, and I don't think that's an answer.

Healthy people building community together, offline and online, through their own free will, now that can do a lot by its own nature. :) People who've been traumatized and grow from the experience, find one another, and go forward, are a part of this. From what I've seen of this, it can't be 'regulated' or it won't work.

Do you see what I mean?

 

[Gimpy]

Re: Sam Vaknin - Narcissist or Psychopath?

mechanima:

I am autistic.... I am just here to stick to the facts...in case they help someone else avoid or escape the abuses under discussion.

Oh! Ok. :)

I was not aware of this fact. Thank you!

I am not debating with you, and I also try to stick to facts. Apologies if I wasn't clear enough in my use of terms.

 

[anart]

Re: Sam Vaknin - Narcissist or Psychopath?

I realise that you are a "supermoderator" and what you actually expect me to do is submit to whatever you say

I'm not sure where you got that idea, but it could not be further from the truth.  It would be, at the very least, polite of you to at least learn something about the forum upon which you are posting before jumping to such bizarre and rather insulting conclusions.

as part of a, perfectly normal, social ritual concerned with group integration, but, frankly, I am not here to find a place within a group

I did not assume that you were.

(I am autistic, it would sorta creep me out to have one), I am just here to stick to the facts...in case they help someone else avoid or escape the abuses under discussion.

Rather odd that you would bring up the point that you are autistic. Is this an excuse for being rude?

So if you want to "cut to the chase" and ban me for non-compliance with the group dynamic now I will quite understand.

That is not how it works on this forum, and as I stated previously, it would be greatly appreciated if you could - at the very least - become familiar with the forum upon which you are posting and not jump to derogatory conclusions that serve neither you, nor the forum, very well.

 

[mechanima]

Re: Sam Vaknin - Narcissist or Psychopath?

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