Sam Vaknin - Narcissist or "I, Psychopath"?

Re: Sam Vaknin - Narcissist or Psychopath?

Thanks for the addendum, Filachi! No need to apologize; on the contrary, that's just the kind of info I was looking for.

I was aware of the two key issues you mentioned: that's to say, Vaknin's lack of formal qualifications and his domination of the Web on the topic of narcissism. Both of those are clear risk factors, but if he is spreading misleading information around, neither of those in and of itself tells us what exactly might be "wrong" with the content of his teaching.

Your mention of "narcissistic supply" is a good example of something we find people talking about on the Web so commonly that anyone might take it for a officially recognized factor in the narcissistic personality, without realizing it's an invention of Sam's. Whether it's controversial I simply don't know, since I have no idea what other experts on personality disorders have to say about it.

Including that one and the concept of "inverted narcissism," so far I've counted about five issues that are or could be under dispute between Vaknin and others. But the first two seem to be largely points of contention between Vaknin and other narcissists!

One is the complaint from a few narcissists that Vaknin paints too black a picture of narcissists in general, and even "incites hatred" of them. I may possibly be excused for thinking that's not a matter of overriding importance!

Another is the incurability (or otherwise) of NPD, another point that Tony C. Brown raised. That's the only issue Brown actually named as a cause of conflicts and bannings on forums where Vaknin has posted.

However, I strongly suspect this isn't so much a conflict with Vaknin as with the people who often infest any "abuse"-related "support" forum--whether or not it's about "narcissism"--in order to indulge their Compulsive Rescuer's Urge to Meddle and Break Up Marriages, or CRUMBUM. The CRUMBUM crowd takes "rescuing" to the point of obsession, with their insistence on trying to "rescue" anyone at all from a relationship they see as "abusive" irrespective of whether it's appropriate, and whether or not their target even wants to be "rescued"!

The CRUMBUM crew routinely preaches (in defiance of reality) that virtually no "abusive" partner (narcissistic or not) ever reforms, to justify their claim that there's never any future in staying with such a partner. Certainly that's the doctrine that prevails on femfree's forums among others. There, the fact that NPD in particular is (1) serious and (2) incurable is used to justify a rigid policy of "no contact" with a narcissist. Anyone who challenges the notion of incurability threatens the CRUMBUM agenda. If there have been conflicts, bannings and the like on Vaknin-related forums (apart from the mismanagement and other dysfunctionality found on many similar forums), pace Tony Brown I suspect the CRUMBUM crew rather than Vaknin himself has been behind much of that.

But at least two other issues seem to me to have been influenced by Vaknin's own narcissism. One of these is his concept of "inverted narcissists."

It's fair enough for Vaknin (or anyone) to point out that "the victims of narcissists have rarely become victims randomly." That does need saying, when there is some reason why the majority of those victims gravitated toward a narcissistic partner in the first place. If the victims don't examine and deal with those factors in their own personality, they're likely to continue ending up with abusive partners of some kind. Many do just that, time and again. But the precise nature of those factors is something else again.

While Vaknin does make valid points on this topic, he also takes it too far, in several ways. He misrepresents some of the reasons partners stay with narcissists, for instance by attributing it to "masochism"--or even to "latent narcissism" of their own! Above all, he's far too specific about these partners' supposed motives by labeling many of them "inverted narcissists" (which he calls "a sub-species of codependent"), when their real reasons for staying with a narcissist can be much more varied. According to the Bob Goodman interview, Vaknin even caps that off by suggesting victims of narcissists are just as much "doomed" to their fate as narcissists themselves. I'm sure this could be unhelpful to partners and ex-partners of narcissists if it misleads them about the nature of their own personal issues--or worse, leaves them thinking they're incurable when they're not.

Behind this whole concept of "inverted narcissism" I'm guessing there's a lot of narcissistic projection on Vaknin's part. After all, the typical narcissist's position is that "the whole world is about ME, or anyway an extension of ME." ("And if it's not, it jolly well ought to be, so there!") Instead of seeing partners of narcissists as a diverse group with many reasons of their own for staying with people like himself, Vaknin sees them as "tailored" to the needs of people like him--as if they were put here on earth expressly for his own "narcissistic supply." If he's the Key, they're the locks that were made to fit it! And if their condition is also "incurable," that only mirrors his own. Besides, if they were "doomed to their fate" in the first place, if it was all preordained, that must help to relieve him of guilt (if he has any) for anything he might have done to such people. All this sounds like a wonderful fantasy for a narcissist, but it probably reflects the narcissist more than it reflects reality.
 
Re: Sam Vaknin - Narcissist or Psychopath?

The other issue, I gather, is that Vaknin blurs the boundary between NPD and psychopathy. As far as this is a problem, here again I see the influence of narcissistic projection. To someone like Vaknin, the psychopath could also be "an extension of ME, or of someone like ME," a mere "subspecies of narcissist" rather than a phenomenon in his own right.

I know it's being argued here that Vaknin himself could be a psychopath rather than an NPD case. I'm not altogether convinced about that. I can see traits there, but I'm not at all sure they're conclusive. For instance, if somebody prefers an eventful life to a dull one, that might be suggestive, but it doesn't have to make them a psychopath. This whole issue is muddied up further by experts who not only see NPD and psychopathy simply as points on a continuum of such disorders, but may be uncertain themselves of what distinctions are worth making. On that score I saw that Vaknin claims here

_http://samvak.tripod.com/personalitydisorders15.html

that "the DSM V Committee is considering to abolish this distinction altogether."

Still, Vaknin goes on to say there are important "nuances" setting the two disorders apart. (I'd call them more than "nuances" myself.) Here's his impression of those "nuances":

As opposed to most narcissists, psychopaths are either unable or unwilling to control their impulses or to delay gratification. They use their rage to control people and manipulate them into submission.

Psychopaths, like narcissists, lack empathy but many of them are also sadistic: they take pleasure in inflicting pain on their victims or in deceiving them. They even find it funny!

Psychopaths are far less able to form interpersonal relationships, even the twisted and tragic relationships that are the staple of the narcissist.

Both the psychopath and the narcissist disregard society, its conventions, social cues and social treaties. But the psychopath carries this disdain to the extreme and is likely to be a scheming, calculated, ruthless, and callous career criminal. Psychopaths are deliberately and gleefully evil while narcissists are absent-mindedly and incidentally evil.

My impression largely agrees with what Vaknin says here, with one main exception. I'm not so sure psychopaths are "less able to form interpersonal relationships," when they're often so skilled at deceiving and manipulating people. Though psychopaths lack empathy, they still often seem capable of accurately perceiving what motivates others. This knowledge they ruthlessly exploit to a victim's detriment. Yet it can also enable more "functional" psychopaths to maintain a relationship as long as they see it's to their own advantage. Narcissists on the other hand, with their obsessive fixation on themselves and their own needs and wishes, can wreck their relationships simply because they're so blind to the needs of a partner.

All this depends on what the key distinctions are between NPD and psychopathy. I know this has been discussed on another thread, but my own idea of the difference is clear enough. In psychopathy the absence of empathy, and of conscience along with it, is primary. In NPD the failure of empathy is incidental to a near-exclusive absorption with the self, with the propping up of a weak and tottering ego, that can shut out all consideration or feeling for others.

I get the impression that Vaknin does see this difference between the two conditions, particularly with his discussion of how the "false self" is constructed in an effort to compensate for intolerable feelings of personal inadequacy. If psychopaths also put on the appearance of a "false self," they're doing it to fool others, while narcissists first and foremost are fooling themselves!

However, unlike the passage I've quoted above, Vaknin's discussion of this aspect elsewhere can be very confusing, as Laura pointed out a while ago. Perhaps at times Vaknin fails to make the distinction clear. When he talks about the narcissist's "uncontrollable rage" for instance, he might be omitting to mention the origin of this rage--in the perception, say, of some "narcissistic injury"--while the psychopath's rage springs from a different cause.

At other times Vaknin may just be trying to be too precise about how and why people like himself behave the way they do, with all kinds of exceptions to the general rule. Variations in motive and behavior are typical of any human, but where anyone is trying to distinguish one "type" of human from another, that only muddies the waters. Still, I have to admit some of what Vaknin writes leaves the reader confused. In a passage Laura quoted, for instance:

At all times, even during the worst explosive episode, the narcissist can tell right from wrong and reign [sic] in their impulses. The narcissist's impulse control is unimpaired, though he may pretend otherwise in order to terrorize, manipulate and coerce his human environment into compliance.

Here, Vaknin makes the narcissist's motive for raging completely indistinguishable from the psychopath's motive he mentioned in the other passage: "to control people and manipulate them into submission"! Play it again, Sam, and this time make up your mind!
 
Re: Sam Vaknin - Narcissist or Psychopath?



Hey Onlooker.
"One is the complaint from a few narcissists that Vaknin paints too black a picture of narcissists in general, and even "incites hatred" of them. I may possibly be excused for thinking that's not a matter of overriding importance!"

I don't know if Vaknin can get all the credit for this, but at AAC, I have observed a hypervigilance toward, and what seems like hatred of Narcissism. Sometimes new posters are judged Narcissistic, and have been vilified, called names, then hounded off the forum.

It's as if people, in trying to steer clear of or put distance between themselves and the "N", adapt the same black/white, either/or mindset that the narcissist has. They just vilify a Narcissist. So, If Vaknin can be credited with this new public awareness of NPD, then has he projected his schismatic thinking onto these commuinities?

I may have more addendums later - I need to get some sleep.
Talk at ya later..
 
Re: Sam Vaknin - Narcissist or Psychopath?

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Re: Sam Vaknin - Narcissist or Psychopath?

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Re: Sam Vaknin - Narcissist or Psychopath?


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Re: Sam Vaknin - Narcissist or Psychopath?

I sure agree with this. "A lot of the "safe" places are about as safe as a snakepit, but even the genuinely safe places, run by sincerely safe people are full of unsafe people."

I exercised caution about what I shared on any of these sites. Because I mostly read, I decided that there are some pretty disturbed people in these "recovery" forums, and you don't know who is reading or what they are doing with the info. Yes, it is naive at best to expect support, or anything therapeutic from such people. However, it did help me to journal and share parts of myself that way. Because I had been raised in a family where secrets were the status quo, and "less said the better" should have been emblazoned on the family coat of arms, it was how I started to chip away at this wall of secrecy that had been going up for (Dang it!) decades. It was good practice for me, and I have been able to trust myself to share in my physical life.

Happy New Year, Mechanima!!!
 
Re: Sam Vaknin - Narcissist or Psychopath?

mechanima said:
Would you pour out your heart in a place where it would appear on cable TV indexes within a week?

Sadly, the truth is that "pouring out your heart" on the internet, gets closer to equivalent every day, and if if nobody can pair you with your offline ID, they STILL know how your online ID ticks, and how to manipulate it.

The bottom line is that I do not think it is a good idea to "share" anything on the internet that you would not be happy to call in to your local radio station.

-We had one http://cyberpathlinks.blogspot.com/2007/06/j-aka-gridney-aka-yidwithlid-aka-sammy.html predator surf for his victim on support groups after he practically destroyed her.
-Found her and just READ EVERYTHING she was saying and looking for support for. (She ended up in a PTSD clinic for a bit)
-Then tried to FILE LEGAL CHARGES against her for talking about him (did we mention she never mentioned his real name or where he lived or worked?)
-It was all dismissed but in the meantime put an already traumatized woman through hell
-He then got on his own site and made fun of her and lied about her http://www.jewishblogging.com/blog.php?bid=96316
-Accusing HER of cyberstalking HIM (can you say PROJECTION?)

So be CAREFUL what you say - even on a support group. Even psychopaths will stalk you and read everything you say, twist it and use it against you.

BTW this same victim? Asked Femfree to remove her posts from one of Vaknin's forums when she realized her predator was stalking her - and guess what Femfree did. Come on, guess.... :mad: Mechanima - you probably already know! ;D
 
Re: Sam Vaknin - Narcissist or Psychopath?

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Re: Sam Vaknin - Narcissist or Psychopath?

Fifi heard her - and blatantly abused her for her reasonable request.
We even approached Fifi on her behalf... We aren't kind about psychopaths. :cool:

mechanima said:
Ah now, Purplehaze...

Be nice...Fifi the terrible is a VERY OLD LADY...and very old ladies get a bit deaf...they can't be expected to hear every little request anybody makes...honest...

*cynical grins*
 
Re: Sam Vaknin - Narcissist or Psychopath?

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Re: Sam Vaknin - Narcissist or Psychopath?

...at AAC, I have observed a hypervigilance toward, and what seems like hatred of Narcissism. Sometimes new posters are judged Narcissistic, and have been vilified, called names, then hounded off the forum.

It's as if people, in trying to steer clear of or put distance between themselves and the "N", adapt the same black/white, either/or mindset that the narcissist has. They just vilify a Narcissist. So, If Vaknin can be credited with this new public awareness of NPD, then has he projected his schismatic thinking onto these commuinities?

I've seen this kind of behavior too, Filachi--except that Vaknin wasn't around to inspire it! We could replace the word "narcissist" with some other term--"abuser" being the most widespread example--and these people would still behave the same. Only the terminology would be different.

It's part of the unhealthiness that's all too common on mental "health"-related sites. I've noticed a lot of that black-and-white thinking around, too.

So many of the people who come to those sites are complaining of abuse, typically from a spouse or other intimate partner. Unfortunately that doesn't mean they themselves are always free of "issues." Not by any means! Mind you, many people on those sites are the nicest folks you could want to meet. But it only takes a minority of troublemakers to cause problems.

To start with there are people who've come out of a relationship with an abuser of some kind (or "narcissist," call 'em what we will) and they've got anger they haven't gotten over yet. Then quite a number have PTSD to one degree or another, so they may be jumpy and react to things that "trigger" them in ways that ordinary people wouldn't. Then if they've had a bad time with an abusive partner, some can be hypervigilant just as you said, and they may see "abusers" everywhere--paranoid, "Reds under the bed" stuff. That can be worse still if they've had a string of relationships all their lives with abusive people, starting with dysfunction in their own family.

It seems to be the case that dysfunctional families turn out not just the lion's share of abusers, but also the majority of people who end up partnering with abusers. If they've been surrounded by dysfunction for most of their lives, they can be prone to "see it" everywhere, even where it isn't. They can't always tell the normal from the abnormal.

On top of that, it's not as if everyone complaining of an abusive relationship is necessarily innocent themselves. Some people calling themselves "victims" of abusive relationships had issues of their own all along, like controlling behavior, or they can be abusers themselves (whether or not they're clinically "narcissists"). Abusers, after all, invariably blame their own bad behavior on their innocent partner.

So a fair admixture of people with these and other problems can show up on those sites and make trouble. The dynamics of their interactions get complicated too. Sexism, especially misandry can be one major problem, though interestingly I didn't notice that as a significant issue on the femfree sites. Then there's the CRUMBUM syndrome I mentioned before.

Apart from that, certain people, though pleasant enough in themselves, can add to the strife on these sites possibly because of their own "codependent" traits. Feeling inadequate, they've typically always looked around for someone they saw as "strong" who they hoped would "take care" of them in some way, though they've invariably been naive in selecting such a person. That can be how they've ended up with abusive partners in the first place, when the person they saw as "strong" turned out to be simply aggressive and abusive.

They can play out that same dynamic on an Internet message board. This time they give their support to a person they see as "strong" and "on their side" in vehement opposition to "abusers" (or "narcissists," or whatever term is in use), on the general theory that "my enemy's enemy must be my friend." Yet once again the "outspoken opponent of abusers" turns out to be just one more Internet bully, while the "supporters" he or she attracts only make the factionalism on these sites that much worse.

That's before we even get to the matter of who owns and manages sites of this kind. Some of the site owners and administrators can be sane and reasonable, but very often others have chosen to take on the task because they themselves have had problems in the past in that particular sphere of life--whether it's about "abuse," "alcoholism" or whatever. Vaknin himself is only one example. So these owners and administrators themselves are not necessarily free of "issues" either. All this together makes for a real devil's brew of problems on some of these sites.

For instance, another site that's been badly mismanaged in the past is Patricia Evans's verbalabuse.com. There was a massive meltdown there as well, back in 2002, which I also witnessed. Ironically, that site ran better when nobody was trying to "administer" it at all! Patricia seems to have more than a few "control issues" herself--which some readers might discern from a close scrutiny of her books. The infamous "Purge of '02" started when two obnoxious bullies invaded the site, and in the resulting melee Patricia, for no reason anyone has ever figured out, chose to back this pair of bullies against the vast majority of her good posters. But Patricia has often had a curious habit of keeping a pet abuser or two around on her site. Some people are just weird!
 
Re: Sam Vaknin - Narcissist or Psychopath?

We believe you. She re-traumatized a couple of our members as well. Really a complete nasty person. She also trolls other boards for talk about Vaknin or herself so don't hold your breath because she's probably here already.

Um... you do realize Fifi is still MARRIED to her N but she "says" they don't live together.

A twisted little Napoleon is Fifi

and this says it all about Vaknin: http://enpsychopedia.org/index.php/Sam_Vaknin


mechanima said:
You should have seen the (multi-sock) job she did on me (her very first, I believe) in summer 2001...long before she was old enough to be deaf (or senile)...

Absolutely vicious...

And her whole attitude, from her very first post, was kinda "I am the big I am, be grateful that I am here to save you from your cluelessness..."

At the time that just struck me as rude and ignorant...
 
Re: Sam Vaknin - Narcissist or Psychopath?

We have a couple members at our site who used to see Evans, in person, for counseling - and ran like hell. She apparently has a ego the size of Jupiter. Probably N.

Evans also doesn't like members who are as or more informed than her. She will trump up some reason to get rid of them ASAP

More mismanaged help sites we know of:
Dr. Irene's Catbox (Dr. Irene is a right wing psycho and a sychophant of Vaknin's. Keeps a number of "just lay down and take it" moderators around; much like Evans)
_http://www.datingpsychos.com (extortion to pay if your abuser sticks you here and you need to get yourself off)
http://enpsychopedia.org/index.php/Womansavers
ANY pro-online dating site!! (just try and get a predator off of them)
Facebook & MySpace (other places that won't take predators off)
_http://www.freetobitch.com (heard they are a true bunch of Pollyannas who left the Catbox? Only talk about dieting & cookie recipes sort of stuff.)


Onlooker said:
For instance, another site that's been badly mismanaged in the past is Patricia Evans's verbalabuse.com. There was a massive meltdown there as well, back in 2002, which I also witnessed. Ironically, that site ran better when nobody was trying to "administer" it at all! Patricia seems to have more than a few "control issues" herself--which some readers might discern from a close scrutiny of her books. The infamous "Purge of '02" started when two obnoxious bullies invaded the site, and in the resulting melee Patricia, for no reason anyone has ever figured out, chose to back this pair of bullies against the vast majority of her good posters. But Patricia has often had a curious habit of keeping a pet abuser or two around on her site. Some people are just weird!
 
Re: Sam Vaknin - Narcissist or Psychopath?

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