Sam Vaknin - Narcissist or "I, Psychopath"?

Re: Sam Vaknin - Narcissist or Psychopath?

Filachi said:
purplehaze said:
Gotta love how Sam answers a newbie on one of his hunting grounds...er, support groups:

http://thepsychopath.freeforums.org/new-and-possibly-married-to-a-narcissist-t9482.html

ARG :scared:

Oh mercifulgod!! What a warm welcome!!! He pelts her with links to HIS writing. (If Ida known you were comin, Ida baked a cake)
'lol' almost like a bot ...
 
Re: Sam Vaknin - Narcissist or Psychopath?

Bot? I didn't even know what that was until a few months ago. I looked at the thread bumpers and the 24/7 posters at AAC, and I always thought "automated response" Do lots of sites have this?
 
Re: Sam Vaknin - Narcissist or Psychopath?

Noticing that Vaknin seems at times to blur the boundaries between NPD and psychopathy, I wonder what disagreements (if any) he might have with Dr. Robert Hare.

My attention was first drawn to this when I saw Vaknin's critique of some of Lundy Bancroft's writing. That can be found here, among other places:

_http://www.narcissistic-abuse.com/abusefamily3.html

Vaknin ends with these remarks:

Lundy Bancroft on batterers, David [sic] Hare on the subject of psychopathy (and, modesty notwithstanding, myself on pathological narcissism) represent a breed of mavericks, rejected by the "experts" and "professionals" in their fields. But they are both, to my mind, authorities. Their experience is invaluable. Whether they are good at constructing theories and generalizing their experience is a different matter altogether. Their contribution is mainly phenomenological, not theoretical.

It's strange that Vaknin should bracket these two together with himself, when Hare is so obviously the "odd man out."

To be sure, Bancroft and Vaknin have a lot in common, as Vaknin suggests. Bancroft to start with doesn't have a doctorate--though he doesn't pretend to one either, as Vaknin does. Hare on the other hand is a full professor with 35 years of research experience.

Bancroft and Vaknin both fit the description of "mavericks." While Hare is unquestionably a pioneer who has charted his own course, I wouldn't say that makes him a "maverick"--let alone "rejected by experts and professionals in his field"!

I know the "experts" would find some of Vaknin's teachings questionable, while much of what Bancroft teaches is worse, due to his own wilful rejection of well-attested realities. Yet how can anyone describe Dr. Robert Hare as "rejected by the experts" when his Psychopathy Checklist has become a standard tool for clinical assessment worldwide?

Vaknin's final assessment of Bancroft is bang on target: his "contribution is mainly phenomenological, not theoretical." Yet the same cannot be said of Hare, a careful scientist, so very opposite from the ideologue Bancroft. Curiously, this phrase of Vaknin's fits some of Hare's detractors better than it does Hare himself.

Vaknin's remarks on Bancroft are also interesting, largely for what he doesn't say. While Vaknin does make some valid criticisms, he has nothing to say about Bancroft's outrageous sexism (which got him kicked out of a public job with the Massachusetts court system); indeed, Vaknin is naive enough to parrot some of the same duckspeak himself. Yet the central topic of interest is the psychology of an "abuser"--or it would be, if "psychology" were not a dirty word to Bancroft. Vaknin's overriding concern, which causes him no end of astonishment, is that Bancroft seems "totally blind" to the reality that what he's written is a perfect description of a "pathological narcissist."

Bancroft is blind to a lot of things, but this seems to me no more than a trivial argument about terminology! Bancroft largely avoids clinical terms in any case. Could Vaknin be shocked because Bancroft, working independently, failed to recognize his (Vaknin's) own work on narcissism? That could be quite an insult to a narcissist!

Meanwhile, Vaknin himself seems curiously blind to the substance of what Bancroft is trying to pretend about the psychology of the typical abuser. Bancroft stubbornly denies all the fears, insecurities, (narcissistic) "wounds" and dysphorias that drive so many abusers' behavior--including those the narcissist's "false self" was constructed to protect against, according to Vaknin. Surely Vaknin ought to take issue with Bancroft's dogmatic denial of so much psychological reality. Yet he passed by the relevant paragraph with no comment.

The odd thing is that if Bancroft's psychological profile does fit a certain type of abuser, it's closer to that of a psychopath--who has no "buried reasons" for abusing other than the sheer lack of empathy or conscience. But Vaknin doesn't comment on this. Perhaps to him they're all just different flavors of "narcissists."

However, what about Hare? What grounds could Vaknin have for seeing Hare as "rejected by experts"? Part of the explanation is in item 11 on this page:

_http://samvak.tripod.com/archive08.html

Robert Hare is considered to be a heretic in DSM-IV terms. His PCL-R was severely criticised by the compilers of DSM-IV (especially after he insisted that they muddled up the definition of AsPD...).

In this case, I think the DSM may be right. The overlap between AsPD and psychopath is too great to justify a separate clinical category. In any case, Hare is absolutely NOT the orthodoxy. The DSM is clear: AsPD in, psychopaths out.

I dare say Vaknin is right that AsPD and psychopathy are too close to justify separate clinical categories. However, that's not the point. The real point is which of the two--"psychopathy" as Hare defines it (through the PCL-R), or "AsPD," with its different criteria--should have been the choice for inclusion in the DSM-IV. Though I'm no expert on this, I'm inclined to disagree with the DSM-IV committee and with Vaknin alike about their choice. In any case none of this makes Hare some kind of "outcast" in his profession just because his own methodology was not chosen.

I gather that AsPD was chosen largely because it's easier to assess by more objectively verifiable measures, particularly records of criminal behavior. Assessing "psychopathy" on the other hand can be more prone to subjectivity. So I appreciate the problem the committee had.

Nevertheless, the diagnosis of a personality disorder ought to identify what's "going wrong" in the mind of the subject. Hare's diagnosis of "psychopathy" is more focused on that aspect, while a diagnosis weighted more by "behavior" is more prone to other confounds. People can behave in criminal ways for a variety of reasons apart from psychopathy.

The DSM committee may have had their own, pragmatic reasons for preferring AsPD for inclusion, but what about Vaknin? Curiously, in that same article he also argues the other side of the issue: that "the line between NPD and AsPD is very thin" as well. If that's the case, why then would Vaknin rather see AsPD included instead of psychopathy? He sounded almost gleeful that AsPD was chosen.

It may just be the fact that AsPD is defined in terms of criminal behavior. Though even Vaknin sees AsPD as "simply an exaggerated form of NPD," if a distinction is going to be made anyway I dare say he'd pick that one--if criminal behavior is something he'd prefer to distance himself from!

That's the best I can make so far of a very confusing issue, one on which Vaknin often seems to be talking out of both sides of his mouth.
 
Re: Sam Vaknin - Narcissist or Psychopath?

Vaknin's not a DOCTOR. He got his degree from a diploma mill.
Bancroft - while controversial, is accredited and has done some great work in educating the public. We recommend his book WHY DOES HE DO THAT? often to our members. There's no comparison between Bancroft & Vaknin - Vaknin's a hack and a predator.
http://enpsychopedia.org/index.php/Sam_Vaknin

Scroll down under BEWARE for Dr. Hoffman-Engl's take on Vaknin:
http://www.chameleongroup.org.uk/npd/index.html

more on Vaknin:
http://www.angelfire.com/zine2/narcissism/narcissism_caution_internet.html

Dr. Hare wouldn't waste his time on someone like Vaknin.
 
Re: Sam Vaknin - Narcissist or Psychopath?

Pelts? More like HAMMERS!! He does this all the time. And if a "victim of the week" asks him for clarification, he never really answers just pelts them with more links.

He's a psychopath for sure. And there's so much of his blather on the net that victims just TRIP right over it when looking for help.

Filachi said:
Oh mercifulgod!! What a warm welcome!!! He pelts her with links to HIS writing. (If Ida known you were comin, Ida baked a cake)
 
Re: Sam Vaknin - Narcissist or Psychopath?

The Diagnostic Controversy IS a real problem, and I think that the problem stems from the fact that academia has been infiltrated by pathological types who deliberately confuse and obfuscate the issues. There's a difference, IMO, between an individual who is psychopathic in traits and behaviors and another who is a psychopath. Same with narcissism - there's a difference, IMO, between a person who has narcissistic traits and one who has NPD. Actually, I think that NPD is just part of the spectrum of psychopathy - sort of a "variation" within the taxon.

Harrison Koehli's article on the topic of the cut between the continuous and categorical models is interesting in this respect:

Harrison said:
I've lately been thinking about the "continuous vs categorical" debate in relation to psychopathy. I just started reading a book called Thinking about Psychopaths and Psychopathy edited by Harvard professor Ellsworth Lapham Fersch. It's a collection of questions and answers from seminars he's given on psychopathy, with contributions by various academics. Based on Fersch's introduction, it looks promising and insightful.

However, I wonder if Fersch really "gets it". While he talks about the importance of psychopathy quite eloquently and identifies the problems inherent in the conflation of psychopathy with antisocial personality disorder, there is a question and answer in the first chapter that is puzzling. (It is possible one of his colleagues answered this question, as the individual author is not listed for each section.)

In this question on the debate between psychopathy as either categorical (i.e. you either have it or you don't, like Turner's syndrome) or continuous (the extreme end of traits shared by everyone, as in someone with very high intelligence), he firmly takes the "continuous" side. However, I get the impression that he does so without understanding the crux of the matter, or the implications of such a position.

He concludes that psychopathy is continuous because the PCL-R gives results on a spectrum, a score of "0" being least psychopathic and "40" being most psychopathic. Because non-psychopathic people can score low on the checklist and thus technically possess some "psychopathic" traits, Fersch concludes that psychopaths only have extreme degrees of more or less "normal" human traits. In other words, people in general are only "more or less" psychopathic. While technically correct, this argument is fairly weak and susceptible to distortion.

First of all, the fact that the PCL-R measures a spectrum of traits does NOT necessarily imply that it is measuring a disorder which is itself a "spectrum". The fact that there is no definite "cut off point" on the scale does NOT imply that psychopathy is not categorical. It could just as well mean that we do not yet have the means of identifying an exact cut off point, or that there could be two distinct taxons (normal and psychopathic) that can overlap on the scale.

It is also possible - and even probable, based on the evidence - that psychopathy is both categorical and continuous. That is, a person is either a psychopath or not, and psychopaths show a spectrum of indicators of psychopathy. Theoretically, all psychopaths possess each trait tested by the PCL-R. However, a mid to low score on the scale could mean nothing more that some traits are not detectable in the subject's known personal history and interview. The scale tests for traits (the category) and its accuracy depends on the truthfulness of the data analyzed (the continuity). Some psychopaths are more "noticeable" than others.

A thought experiment will make this clearer. Imagine that scientists create a robotic human with artificial intelligence, which will then be tested using a variation on the Turing test, which we will call the "human" test. Questions are asked to the robot which test for a checklist of "human" traits. A normal human, responding to the test, will receive a score of 30 to 40, just as psychopaths score 30 to 40 on the PCL-R, while primitive forms of AI will receive a low score. Severely mentally ill people will similarly score in the low- to mid-range.

Let us say that our new robot scores 26. It would be fallacious to say that, because the test is continuous, that this implies that the robot is "more or less" human. All it shows is that it shares traits with a human, and in the robot's case, these traits may be mere programs - they are algorithms, not real experiences with syntactical content. They only give the appearance of humanity.

In reality, one is either human or not. A human will tend to score mid- to high-range on the scale, depending on various factors. A non-human will score low- to mid-range. In addition to this categorical difference (human or not), there is a spectrum of how "close" to human a non-human can test. Some robots will test 0 on the scale, while those with complex programming may score fairly high. However, this just shows the limits of the method of testing. Conclusions about the nature of the phenomenon cannot be discerned from measurements of a limited test.

So how do we account for seemingly psychopathic traits in non-psychopaths? I think this can be explained fairly easily. Lobaczewski accurately describes psychopathy as a deficit, NOT an excess. That is, psychopathy is a lack of certain essential "human" qualities, and this lack gives rise to the peculiarities of psychopathy. This lack is syntonic (social) emotions: those instinctive programs and reactions responsible for bonding and empathy. Because of this lack, psychopaths see people as objects and a parasitic/manipulative lifestyle develops that makes use of these objects.

Lacking "other-centered" emotions, psychopaths are wholly self-centered, and thus unable to feel guilt. This accounts for their "excess" which is seen in their grandiosity and inability to take responsibility. Now, normal humans also possess the self-centered qualities so apparent in a psychopath, but they are tempered by other-centered emotions, to varying degrees. When compared to a psychopath, however, the psychopath will strike us as excessively self-centered.

For example, a psychopath, when confronted with the fact that he has committed a crime, will seemingly take any measure to avoid responsibility. He will deny he did it, perhaps even coming to believe his own lie. If this does not convince others, he may say he had a really good reason for doing it, saying that the victim had it coming.

Similarly, a non-psychopathic delinquent may show similar evasive techniques when confronted with his antisocial behavior. He will justify it and avoid responsibility. However, the rigidity of youthful maladjustment is not the same as psychopathic maladjustment. A youth may eventually develop a hierarchy of values after he is able to see that what he has done has caused another's pain. He may develop empathy, responsibility, the ability to see himself from a perspective outside himself, and to put himself "in another's shoes". A psychopath, on the other hand, lacks these potentials entirely.

The deficit is what categorically makes a psychopath a psychopath - the cause which gives rise to their psychopathic traits, which normal humans can and do share, to varying degrees. Dabrowski, a contemporary of Lobaczewski, and his concept of multilevelness of emotional functions, provides the necessary context here. Normal humanity DOES exist on a spectrum. Many exist with a low level of emotional development, that is, they are to a great degree self-centered, selfish, and live their lives primarily in the service of automatic and unconscious instincts such as self-preservation (the avoidance of harm). Dabrowski called this primary integration, the first level of his multi-leveled system of emotional development.

Thus, "normal" people can be extremely self-centered and even possess many psychopathic traits. As such, they too can have very poorly developed "other-centered" emotions, the difference being that while psychopaths lack the ability to experience these emotions, normal people on a low level have the potential to develop them. It is also possible that, as a result of physical and/or emotional trauma, normal humans at a low level of development may acquire what is called a characteropathy, or personality disorder, that leaves their personality rigid, altering their emotions and behavior - integrated at a low level. Just as a plant cannot grow without a seed, it will not grow if an essential portion of it is damaged beyond repair. Using this analogy, "bad seeds" are so either by their nature, or the influence of the environment.

Another group of humanity may "learn" psychopathic behavior, either as a result of the hypnotic "spellbinding" used by psychopaths, or their own admiration for the psychopath's allure, charm, self-certainty, decisiveness, and even ruthlessness. People with an underdeveloped hierarchy of values may find such traits admirable and may strive to embody them. Again, this does not make them psychopaths.

It is possible that these people may even achieve the same score on the PCL-R as a real psychopath, but those who take Fersch's stance don't seem to see this possibility: that the PCL-R is very effective, but it is not a perfect test for the presence of psychopathy. Again, the fact that the scale is continuous does NOT imply that the disorder is continuous.

That said, it seems that other factors may be responsible for the continuity within psychopathy. For example, socioeconomic status may play some role in determining the form psychopath takes in adulthood, perhaps accounting for the divide between violent criminal psychopathy and so-called "corporate psychopathy". Also, the size of the hippocampus seems to have some influence on this difference between the obvious criminal types and the sub-clinical types who go unrecognized.

Successful psychopaths are perhaps just better at masking their traits, so that an interview and personal history would not necessarily reveal these traits. In such cases, only an omniscient vantage point would ensure an accurate diagnosis. As such, a mid-range PCL-R score does not necessarily mean that a person is not psychopathic. It could simply be the result of insufficient or inaccurate data. "Garbage in, garbage out", as they say in computer science.

So it is important to make a distinction between the continuous nature of the PCL-R as an instrument of measurement, and the nature of psychopathy as a categorical disorder, or taxon. To ignore this distinction is dangerous. As Lobaczewski related from his experience in Poland, pathocratic authorities muddy the waters of psychopathy research so as to evade detection. As he says, "the problem of preventing such a psychiatric threat [i.e., a well-founded scientific understanding of psychopathy] becomes a matter of 'to be or not to be' for pathocracy. Any possibility of such a situation emerging must thus be staved off prophylactically and skillfully, both within and without the empire. At the same time, the empire is able to find effective preventive measures thanks to its consciousness of being different as well as that specific psychological knowledge of psychopaths... partially reinforced by academic knowledge. ... [A] purposeful and conscious system of control, terror, and diversion is thus set to work." (Political Ponerology, pp. 182-183)

The way in which this protection is achieved is in part by the creation of a "catchall" phrase for criminal deviance. "The essence of psychopathy may not, of course, be researched or elucidated. Darkness is cast upon this matter by means of an intentionally devised definition of psychopathy which includes various kinds of character disorders, together with those caused by completely different and known causes... One might admire how [these] definitions of psychopathy effectively block the ability to comprehend phenomena [within a pathocratic system]." (ibid, p. 186)

We have seen this phenomenon in American psychiatry where the official DSM-IV only recognizes "antisocial personality disorder", a catchall label that can apply to a wide range of disorders. Psychopathy is not included in the DSM-IV, and is thus not officially recognized as a valid personality disorder by the Manual.

Such muddying of the waters provides "cover" for psychopaths who do not fit the criminal diagnosis of "antisocial personality disorder". This might have been enough in pathocracies such as in the Soviet empire. However, the concept of psychopathy, thanks to researchers like Cleckley and Hare, seems too well established in the scientific literature to be so easily embargoed. Thus, a new tactic was needed. Viewing psychopathy as simply an "extreme" form of normality robs us of any real understanding of the disorder. It "levels the playing field", so to speak, creating an environment where there is no real distinction between psychopathy and normality.

The entire makeup of a psychopath is qualitatively different from a normal human: their thinking, their worldview, their behavior. It is this "otherness" that is responsible for their dreams of Empire and world domination. This world is seen as harsh and oppressive to them - a world of arbitrary and restrictive social conventions and rules. The only solution to this problem, in their eyes, is a world in which THEY rule. In which they are free to act as they see fit, and force everyone else to accept such an Orwellian nightmare. By bracketing the true nature of psychopathy from our awareness, we give up any hope of identifying the root cause of this social disease which threatens to choke humanity's life in the very near future.

This is, of course, another reason why Sam Vaknin is dangerous and gives us insight into why he is allowed to get away with what he does. Vaknin is, IMO, a psychopath who is trying to convince a lot of people that non-criminal psychopaths are just suffering from NPD.

Is there a kind of narcissism that is not psychopathic? I think so, but right now the waters are so muddy because of the failure to think about this problem in categorical terms that we cannot figure out which is which.
 
Re: Sam Vaknin - Narcissist or Psychopath?

One morning, logging in to AAC, I misspelled the addy. I was thrown into the search engine "Did you mean ________?"

There were lots of different links about the site. Has anyone heard of this guy?

http://searchsight.com/497282-info.html This Dr. Robert Saltzman is linked to the AAC site, but not listed by the AAC site.
Curious, I looked, and found that he shares the same religious and holistic views as the poster who calls himself WorriedDad, whose resume and credentiials are nearly identical to that of River Smith, who is also listed as a developer of the site in the "about us" section. And his style of writing is the same. It just gets weirder and weirder. The guy seems so arrogant.

http://www.dr-robert.com/questions.html

"I will be glad to receive questions by e-mail from anyone who visits my website, and will reply to as many of them as possible in the time I have available. If your question is of general interest, I will publish it, along with my reply, here on the website. If I find that I can address a question in just a few words, I often send a personal email reply without publishing the question here on the site.

If you would like to send a comment--not a question for ask dr-robert, but a comment about the site in general, any of the questions sent to me, or about any of my replies to questions--visit Dr. Robert's Blog where you will find comments from other visitors to this site, along with occasional comments or replies from me.

I would like to apologize to the many people who have sent questions and still are waiting to hear from me. When I began this website in 2004, my intention was to provide useful advice on mental/emotional/physical healing, psychotherapy, philosophical awareness, self-understanding, and spiritual unfoldment for those who otherwise might not have access to the point of view of an experienced clinical psychologist and psychotherapist. I am happy to say that the site has been successful. In these past years I have received thousands of questions from all over the planet, and have replied to hundreds of them--some here on the site, and many others privately. Due to its popularity, the site comes up in first place in a google search for "ask psychologist," and the site receives many hundreds of new visitors daily.

Unfortunately, the very success of this website means that more and more questions must go unaddressed. My inbox is simply jammed with letters to "Dr. Robert"--so jammed in fact that I cannot even read all of them fully, much less reply. Even if I did not have my psychotherapy practice and other work to attend to, I still would not be able to deal fully with this volume of mail. Evidently a significant number of people from all over the world want psychological advice and are finding it here. But I can do only what time allows, and so will never be able fully to address the needs of everyone who visits this site. For that I am sorry.

By the way, if you are thinking of sending me a question, it will stand a better chance of being read and answered if you keep your letter short and to the point, omitting unnecessary background, and simply asking what you most want to know. Honestly, when I open an email and find many hundreds of rambling words about minor details staring me in the face, I often just move on to the next letter. Not that I don't care--for I do feel and understand the pain and worry which underlies most of the letters I receive--but my time is limited, and I am forced to choose. I am doing the best I can to keep up, so please help by paring down your words to the minimum, and leaving out unnecessary detail. Thanks.

Your letter will be received better if you write it in the best style you can. Pay attention to spelling and grammar. This is not informal email, but a formal letter which may be published on this website for all to read. The more time I have to spend correcting your writing the less time I have for replies. Please do not use ellipses (dot, dot, dot) . . . . If English is not your native language, don't worry. I will understand."

At the bottom of one of his migraine inspiring, neon green pages, he states,

""ask dr-robert"--the world's number one ask the psychologist website--hosted by Dr. Robert Saltzman, Ph.D.--Todos Santos, Cabo San Lucas, Baja California, Mexico. " I googled ask psychologist and did NOT get his website first or second, but third.


Is there a new self-proclaimed guru in the cyberworld?
 
Re: Sam Vaknin - Narcissist or Psychopath?

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Re: Sam Vaknin - Narcissist or Psychopath?

Onlooker, tres cute- amateur psychologist. I also thought about inflation - at today's rates, the 5 cents would mean about 5 cents a minute.
 
Re: Sam Vaknin - Narcissist or Psychopath?

Laura, thanks for that article of Harrison Koehli's you posted a couple of weeks ago. That did clarify the main issue for me--or rather, what seems to be the main issue with Vaknin as far as many members of this forum are concerned.

I was confused about that to start with--no doubt because of my own preconceptions. As I said in my first post, I came here originally because I'd heard some people had "problems" with Vaknin and I was curious to understand those problems further. I saw some detailed discussion of them here. So I viewed the question as a general one: "Is there something 'wrong' with Sam Vaknin; and if so, what exactly?" More to the point, what in particular was wrong with his teachings?

When all the distractions were stripped away, about problems on Web sites Vaknin is associated with, his bogus credentials and so forth, I gathered the implication underlying all this was that there was something fundamentally "wrong" with what he teaches. But his entire focus is on "narcissism," after all. So the question I was asking myself was "What could be 'wrong' with Vaknin's teachings about narcissism?"

There I was puzzled, because I couldn't see anything radically wrong with most of what Vaknin had to say on that central topic. No doubt experts on NPD could challenge many details of his opinions--even experts don't agree on everything!--but the fundamentals seemed sound enough to my own knowledge. I was only aware of two significant problems. One was that other narcissists such as Tony C. Brown disliked Vaknin's negativity about NPD and objected to his pessimism about a cure. That didn't seem like a world-shattering issue to me; still less when the prognosis for NPD is in reality so poor. The other was that Vaknin seemed at times to confuse certain symptoms of NPD with those of psychopathy, and to blur the boundary between the two disorders. But I saw that problem as peripheral. And I dare say it is peripheral--to the topic of narcissism, that is.

However, I gather from Harrison's article that the problem is not with anything Vaknin says about narcissism. Instead, it's what Vaknin fails to say about psychopathy.

That's certainly true. My picture of psychopathy does concur with Harrison's. I've always seen the psychopath as a "horse of a different color" from the narcissist, or from anyone with some other personality disorder. That means "categorically" different, as Harrison said, not just further along the same continuum.

I wouldn't rule out the notion of some kind of continuum being involved, but if that does turn out to be the case, it would be a different continuum, one specific to psychopathy itself, not just a variation on some other continuum. For instance if the psychopath is defined in part by the absence of a "conscience"--or more broadly of the emotional capacity to experience "conscience" (and "empathy" and other feelings) as the rest of us do--is it possible to have a "feeble conscience," to be "practically psychopathic"? If it is, that would still be on a "psychopathic continuum," a different disorder from all of the others, with a different underlying cause. It wouldn't be the narcissist's absorption with the "false self," or the paranoia, the dysphorias, the cognitive distortions and other pathological traits that drive other disordered behaviors.

My understanding of that basic difference is identical to Lobaczewski's: that "psychopathy [is] a deficit, NOT an excess... a lack of certain essential 'human' qualities... giv[ing] rise to the peculiarities of psychopathy." This of course is what Vaknin fails to say about psychopathy. At least, I'm not aware that Vaknin ever tries to define psychopathy in those categorical terms. He merely talks about psychopathy as if it were no more than NPD with a few extra bells and whistles. These in his own words are no more than "nuances"! I don't believe that at all; they're a great deal more than "nuances"!

It is a problem if the existence of a severe mental condition like psychopathy gets fuzzed over when it needs to be publicly highlighted. I already mentioned disagreeing with Vaknin about the choice of AsPD over psychopathy for inclusion in the DSM-IV. I was pleased to hear from somebody that "the term AsPD won out over 'psychopathic' or 'sociopathic' by a very tiny margin. The terminology might change in the next round." If so, I hope the concept doesn't get blunted with notions of "sociopathy" either.

I just don't see any reason myself to think anyone is "deliberately" trying to obscure the existence of psychopathy. Not when they (unfortunately) have so many other reasons for neglecting it. Vaknin does, no doubt, because he's so self-absorbed and sees the rest of the world, including the psychopath, as extensions of himself instead of people in their own right. Other people too might simply want to distance themselves from criminality, whatever personality traits they may have, so they'd rather see "criminality" (in the form of "AsPD") placed in a category of its own. And for the DSM committee, a criminal record is easier to measure than the traits diagnostic of psychopathy. But fortunately the concept is slowly getting better known as time goes on.
 
Re: Sam Vaknin - Narcissist or Psychopath?

Onlooker said:
I just don't see any reason myself to think anyone is "deliberately" trying to obscure the existence of psychopathy.

You'd certainly want to obscure it if you were one.
 
Re: Sam Vaknin - Narcissist or Psychopath?

That depends on how far such a coverup seems practical or worth pursuing to the typical psychopath. And how many psychopaths are truly introspective? I wonder how many even realize they're psychopaths, or bother to think about what kind of person they are at all. It's not as if they get formally initiated into some Secret Society of pSychopaths with a conscious agenda. (Would the "SSS" be one step more evil than the original "SS"? In fact I've heard that "Tri-Ess" stands for something completely different: kinky for sure, "evil" no.)
 
Re: Sam Vaknin - Narcissist or Psychopath?

Onlooker said:
That depends on how far such a coverup seems practical or worth pursuing to the typical psychopath. And how many psychopaths are truly introspective? I wonder how many even realize they're psychopaths, or bother to think about what kind of person they are at all. It's not as if they get formally initiated into some Secret Society of pSychopaths with a conscious agenda. (Would the "SSS" be one step more evil than the original "SS"? In fact I've heard that "Tri-Ess" stands for something completely different: kinky for sure, "evil" no.)

Actually, it's not as impractical as it seems. If you've read Ponerology ( since you referred to Lobaczewski earlier, I assume you have) then you might recall his description of how the University libraries were emptied of all material on psychopathology or related information when the University was taken over by the ponerological influence (psychopaths, characteropaths, etc).  Lobaczewski also mentions, as do others, that psychopaths can indeed recognize each other, thus they must know, in one way or another, what they are.

It is quite logical for a predator to mask its existence from its prey  - it actually becomes a biological necessity, since discovery and exposure with full understanding by the 'prey' (normal human beings in this case) would result in the predator's inability to predate; to survive.  It appears that you might be 'critically correcting' the psychopath's behavior - assuming they would be motivated in ways that you are motivated or would act in ways that you would act, when the fact of the matter is that they do not.
 
Re: Sam Vaknin - Narcissist or Psychopath?

Onlooker said:
There I was puzzled, because I couldn't see anything radically wrong with most of what Vaknin had to say on that central topic. No doubt experts on NPD could challenge many details of his opinions--even experts don't agree on everything!--but the fundamentals seemed sound enough to my own knowledge. I was only aware of two significant problems. One was that other narcissists such as Tony C. Brown disliked Vaknin's negativity about NPD and objected to his pessimism about a cure. That didn't seem like a world-shattering issue to me; still less when the prognosis for NPD is in reality so poor. The other was that Vaknin seemed at times to confuse certain symptoms of NPD with those of psychopathy, and to blur the boundary between the two disorders. But I saw that problem as peripheral. And I dare say it is peripheral--to the topic of narcissism, that is.

It may appear peripheral, but it isn't. One of the points of my article is that psychopaths have a vested interest in blurring the boundaries between disorders. Reread the last paragraphs where I quote what Lobaczewski says on the subject. From the analysis of Vaknin and his writings a few things seem clear. For one, he seems to be a psychopath and uses his own pathology to gather a cult following, portraying himself as an expert. By doing so he gratifies his own ego, harms the lives and minds of those who fall for his spellbinding, and blocks people from having a good understanding of psychopathy.

That's certainly true. My picture of psychopathy does concur with Harrison's. I've always seen the psychopath as a "horse of a different color" from the narcissist, or from anyone with some other personality disorder. That means "categorically" different, as Harrison said, not just further along the same continuum.

You're reading more into my article than is actually written. I do NOT think narcissism and psychopathy are "categorically" different, at least not Vaknin's narcissism. So-called "malignant narcissism" is a disguise for psychopathy, as I see it. They are the same thing. Simple narcissism is simply a trait shared by many psychopaths and non-psychopaths. This is why Vaknin is dangerous. Just like antisocial personality disorder conflates criminality with psychopathy (when only a minority of criminals are psychopaths, and only a portion of psychopaths are arrested as criminals), narcissism takes a trait shared by many people and calls it a personality disorder. It is a catchment term which applies to many DIFFERENT disorders and personalities. By using it and not psychopathy, Vaknin muddies the waters and blocks an understanding of psychopathy.

I wouldn't rule out the notion of some kind of continuum being involved, but if that does turn out to be the case, it would be a different continuum, one specific to psychopathy itself, not just a variation on some other continuum. For instance if the psychopath is defined in part by the absence of a "conscience"--or more broadly of the emotional capacity to experience "conscience" (and "empathy" and other feelings) as the rest of us do--is it possible to have a "feeble conscience," to be "practically psychopathic"? If it is, that would still be on a "psychopathic continuum," a different disorder from all of the others, with a different underlying cause. It wouldn't be the narcissist's absorption with the "false self," or the paranoia, the dysphorias, the cognitive distortions and other pathological traits that drive other disordered behaviors.

I'd partially agree. Yes, there are pathological individuals who are not psychopaths. Yes, they're narcissistic. But Narcissism as a taxon doesn't exist. It applies to disorders of various etiologies.

My understanding of that basic difference is identical to Lobaczewski's: that "psychopathy [is] a deficit, NOT an excess... a lack of certain essential 'human' qualities... giv[ing] rise to the peculiarities of psychopathy." This of course is what Vaknin fails to say about psychopathy. At least, I'm not aware that Vaknin ever tries to define psychopathy in those categorical  terms. He merely talks about psychopathy as if it were no more than NPD with a few extra bells and whistles. These in his own words are no more than "nuances"! I don't believe that at all; they're a great deal more than "nuances"!

This is interesting. Can you give some links to where he says these things? I haven't read a lot of his stuff. So is he here basically saying he is a psychopath?

I just don't see any reason myself to think anyone is "deliberately" trying to obscure the existence of psychopathy.

Then I'd suggest you get a copy of Political Ponerology. You couldn't be further from the truth on this one. Of course, some psychopaths aren't aware and don't deliberately obscure the issue. Vaknin may be one of these. But there ARE psychopaths who are VERY aware and take steps to deliberately muddy the waters.
 
Re: Sam Vaknin - Narcissist or Psychopath?

Meanwhile, I can't recall seeing anyone publish a more truthful or complete account of the meltdown. So there's absolutely nothing out there to balance all this spiteful nonsense. No wonder anyone trying to discover what happened on the board ends up with such a distorted picture.

Thank you, Onlooker,

I was one of the new admins brought onboard the Catbox after the old regime resigned en masse. There was a second, silent meltdown when the “new” admin team collapsed the first week of January due to internal problems. One was asked by Dr Irene to leave and three resigned. Five of eight admin team members have fallen out of the new team, with two returning recently.

I've a lot to learn about ponerology but it's "passive" manifestation sure was apparent in the Catbox Meltdown in October, and the "silent" admin team meltdown in January. How similar it was to what I've seen written about Evan's board collapse several years ago. It seems that the heads of these support boards have untended "shadows" of tolerance for bullying and bad behavior, and my experience, a fairly brief one as an administrator, is with Dr Irene Matiatos.

As a long time member of the Catbox with four and a half thousand posts I’d agree with your assessment. I am grateful you put your thoughts together, and wish that reason and conscience made as much “news” as the bully girls and their insane blogs. Your assessment of the "meltdown" is accurate, dynamically speaking. I observed the dynamics you describe myself, over time. I wish I knew you, or had gotten to know you on the Catbox. My username there is Bink, in case we did run across one another.

I got a glimpse of the inside of the Catbox operations during the silent admin team blow-out in January. What I witnessed makes sense of the en masse resignation of the previous admin team, and supports Onlooker's assessment. FWIW, I was the admin team member who was asked to leave, so let me put that on the table. It will color my impressions, of course, and I’ll do my best for objectivity.

Irene is the real thing, a committed and creative psychologist with fresh perspectives and a huge heart for individuals experiencing both sides of the abuse dynamic. No good deed goes unpunished, so for maintaining the Catbox financially and years of work developing therapy for abused/abusers, she endured the public trashing of her image – by “abuse victims” she's set out to help.

I didn’t know, until this, how faint the line is between the rage of the abuser and the rage of the victim. I suspect there is no line at all, it is the same rage and comes from the same narcissistic “wound”.

The shadow side of the victim is a kind of “perpetrator”, as evidenced by the trashing of the Catbox by it’s “victim” members in October/November 2008. The “untended” sympathies and fearfulness of Evans and Matiatos toward abusive people could be said to have caused the implosions of their support boards. This is my take-away, and what I hope to convey here.

Irene appointed a very charismatic woman as the first admin in the wake of the mass resignation. We don’t know where PrudenceB came from, she was not a former member of the Catbox as was announced to the Catbox community. That was a crafted explanation made behind the closed doors of the admin forum to ease the anxiety of her sudden appearance amist the fracas. Here was the beginning of what I see as "passive" wrong doing, on Dr Irene's part. She meant well, her desire was to salvage, but her methods did not follow with thoughtfulness to consequences. Her public declarations to the Catbox members about "transparency" were in sharp relief to the behavior I witnessed within the admin team while I was a member. Irene was consistently hand wringingly concerned for the good of all, by her words. Her behaviors belied more defense of her own unexplored issues, her tendency to ally with narcissists, for instance.

I didn’t think of Prudence as a narcissist type at the time, but she did gather about her several “minions” on the admin team, who were instant best friends with her and referred often to off-board phone conversations. She did not tolerate disagreement, and threatened to quit when the team went in a direction she did not approve of. PrudenceB bullied Irene, and Irene sought to appease her, over and over again. When the “minions” took turns stepping forward and threatening to resign over this or that, Irene retreated with much apologies and promises to “do better”. It was painful to watch.

Irene’s machinations were all for nought as PrudenceB resigned anyway, took a couple of minions with her, baselessly accused another admin of harassing her via PM and fomented board-wide dissent to the point that Irene asked that admin to leave the team to “save it”, causing another admin to resign in disgust. A very typical outcome, really. Perhaps the most predictable outcome.

Our icons of health have shadows that may be, in inverse proportion, as “sick” as their public displays of wisdom demonstrate “health”. There are too many examples of “surprising” fallibility among our icons of human . . . whatever. Fleeing in to health, or greater holiness, or fame or fortune or whatever are our proclivities are, only makes a more angry and determined “shadow”.

Irene Matiatos and Patricia Evans are not extraordinary, IMO. They are human beings, and suffer from the human condition of hubris, and perhaps have become who they are in defense of the “sickness” that plagues them, instead of facing it and embracing it. This is basic psychodynamic stuff, which apparently they are no more capable of recognizing for themselves than any lay person is.

It’s easy for me to “see” all of this stuff, and definitely not easy for me to stay fair minded. I did not want to leave the admin team. I was a daily communicant at the Catbox for well over four thousand posts, and found great solace and strength there. I was not banned, and am welcome to stay on with the designation of “former admin”, but I just won’t, at least yet. I got very wrapped up and obsessed with the dynamic as it happened. I played my role, and naively stood toe to toe with a bully who I am no match for. I try to ride the white horse of righteousness, which in retrospect is embarrassingly idealistic and martyrish. I was as much a drama queen as I accused them of being. I miss the Catbox, but it was for my own best that it was time to go.

The Catbox is a quiet place nowadays, which is sad to see. The lively community has removed itself to another site, and continues to thrive. The Catbox seems a shadow of itself, a victim itself of "victims", the individuals it was created to support in the first place.

Thanks for listening, I hope this finds you well Onlooker, as well as the rest of the thoughtful and interesting folks participating on this thread.
 

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