Re: Sam Vaknin - Narcissist or Psychopath?
wow, again many huge mistaken assumptions made about me.
(and look, here I go again in the cycle of defending myself by trying to correct them, see what I mean?)
Firstly,
I just assumed the intentions for my returning were made clear right there in my returning post. I didnt come this time looking for anything, I came to add something from my personal experience, which not only supported the trend of thought in this thread, but also took into account some of the less than pleasant things I saw in Windsongs communication style that I can identify with having, yes indeed, been a victim of a psychopath. As you will have seen, I cautioned her against believing any psychopath can offer real friendship. Isnt that what you too suggested?
Now, what that has to do with my previous stay here, I'm not sure. I didnt making any connection to it, until someone else suggested perhaps Windsong was an Insider Wannabe or behaving like a psychopath herself, when in fact I think she is more like me, someone whose ways of dealing with people in this world has been profoundly changed by her painful experiences with a psychopath.
Also I would prefer not having words put in my mouth. I never once said how much I dislike it here. I believe what I said was, I didnt feel particularly welcome since I was encouraged to leave a number of times by the groups leader. But that was regarding another issue entirely, not this one having to do with Vaknin being a psychopath or a friend to anyone.
Is there a problem you have with my presence now? Because I dont think I said anything disrespectful. In fact even my slightly-less-than-glowing take on a trend within this forum is not a condemnation, its merely a personal observation on a trend that can in situations like this actually cause communication to breakdown...just as my trend to defend myself can cause problems in communication. Arent we all on a path of growth and sefl-development? Dont we as part of that have open eyes and open hearts to our own foibles as well as those of others?
Actually, yes I think it WAS implied that a survivor like Windsong may be disordered or in some way evil. Wasnt it suggested that she was an Insider Wannabe? that her behaviour was consistent with other pathologicals who have visited this forum? I may be wrong but I thought thats what I read.
And lastly, maybe most importantly I'd like to reiterate something I DID try to communicate clearly in my previous incarnation. When one has been predated upon by a psychopath, which has been written about on this forum many many times, one then becomes prey yes? And when one has been preyed upon, one is victimized by that psychopath. So one has earned by the injury incurred the status of victim. I suspect thats merely a matter of semantics. I can say I am also a victim of dangerous drivers, a date rapist...hmm what else...liars and cheaters that any normal human being runs into in the course of a lifetime. Do I walk around thinking of myself as a victim? No! In fact I feel quite the opposite. Know why? Cuz I not only survivied, but because I feel my inner strength, my anger and indignation, my muscle, my self-discipline, and even a certain amount of goodness and righteousness that if I didnt have I may well have been destroyed completely. I ALSO recognize almost all of the traits Sandra L Brown lists in her book Women Who Love Psychopaths (thankyou whomever on this forum recommended that book to me previously - it was a Godsend), particularly my competitiveness, for instance. Now, that competitiveness made me a winner in the rest of my life, it was also a strength that in a relationship with a psychiopath was a weakness used against me and kept me in a damaging situation much longer than I think I would ever be again (because I was ignorant regarding psychopaths then, I'm not now). That doesnt make me weak, or a walking target, it makes me attractive to a psychopath, but then it makes me attractive to other strong competitive non-psychopaths too. Whats the point? I recognize that ME, the one before I was in a pathological relationship, as well as the one who was in one, and the one who now is on the other side of one has strengths and weaknesses. I am not a walking victim. I am a strong person who has experienced a predator, I have experienced what it is like to be victimized. I also know what it is like to have weaknesses, as well as strengths that got me through to the other side. I'm a formidable person. He said thats why he chose me. That hasnt changed. I suspect there are many formidable people on this forum, including you???
And its with my personal experience that I can tell you what you may not know about how that changes a brain, a nervous system, an entire paradigm...as any trauma affects any normal human being.
And thats what my post about defensiveness was intended to do. Shed a little light at how we are changed. Take it or leave it, thats your choice, but its real. Thats why PTSD is real for trauma victims/survivors, and why something like EMDR can be so effective in recovery...because it helps undo some of the very real changes that happen to a person.
Its not about insisting on keeping my victimhood, its about being honest and forthright about what having awareness and empathy enough to recognize that those who are different than you (or me) are not always so because theyre pathological, or bad. Most times its because theyre "on their way", but a different part of the path than you.
I think if we all were honest, those of us who have experienced damage from a relationship with a psychopath, we'd all have that one thing in common. The ways in which we've been changed may be different. It may quite possibly be (and in fact I strongly suspect it is) that those loyal and active and passionate members of this forum who analyze and look for evidence of psychopathy in so much of the world we live in, may be one of those lasting changes. I believe hypervigilance is in fact one of the symptoms of PTSD. But I dont know any of you so I'm not about to take a position of hubris and say I have you figured out and know what your problem is. Afterall, all of the ways in which we change after traumatic experiences and relationships are our minds creatively brilliant coping mechanisms. They appear for a reason, and they all help to protect us from similar harm in the future.
I'm just saying, please dont label every victim or survivor as pathological, because I would hazard a guess that the majority of us are perfectly fine human beings who are on a sometimes long path of recovery.
No, I dont think for a moment Los was refering to me in my post. I believe he/she was refering to Windsong, but if I'm mistaken on that I'm open to correction. What I did offer in response to Los was my contribution on how, again, having been damaged in a relationship with a psychopath I can offer some insight into why (as you can see from this post) when I feel I have no more to say, I end up saying more I(and I would not be surprised if thats what was going on with Windsong either) -- because analyses and mistaken assumptions get made, more so on this forum than others I have had the experience to participate on, and as a survivor of a pathological relationship in which faulty analyses and manipulative mistaken assumptions were made that eroded and created huge amounts of self-doubt, there comes to be established a pattern of communication in which the non-psychopathic partner hears the little voice in their gut and their mind say "no, I'm not wrong, what I have to say is indeed valuable and I want it to be given as much importance as what YOU say."
Now, you may yourself be a psychopath who wants to manipulate and twist me up like they all seem to want to do, or you yourself may be a long-ago survivor of a pathological relationship yourself, or you may be just a regular Joe. I have no idea which. We dont know each other so I'm not about to make any of my own mistaken assumptions. But I do feel free enough to bring into your awareness that even outside of communications with our known psychopath from our own past, we are still carrying these patterned forms of communication, where we, at least *I* am not comfortable letting others make mistaken assumptions about me without trying to correct them so that what I AM saying is indeed whats being heard.
In fact, there is an online forum called Voicelessness for survivors of pathological relationships, especially those of N/S parents created by a therapist who recognized this precise issue.
Thats all. Why not take a chance and entertain that what I say of my experience might be valid? Not just for me but for some others who have been affected by their pathological experiences too?
Rather than my presence becoming the topic of this thread, why dont we make peace with each other (I'm game, I dont want any trouble) and return to the topic of the thread?
