Schizophrenia, The Work, etc

[stardust]

it not explains why you ask a personnal msn adress for this ? When you ask me the same thing in the beginning of the year , it was not for ask me 'to put a link' somewhere, wasn't it?

Nop. Because you were french.

And so ? It is not because I'm French that I will give an msn adress (that I have not) to every French who is on the forum.

I ask him msn since 1/ I always prefer msn than mail, 2/ just for a link, msn is more practical. Where evasion ?

"just for a link" as you said, you could ask directly on the forum. Without wanting repeat what I said before, after the long thread we have to deal with about perso e-mail, your message was not very well perceived... and you could have been more explicit in your first message about the purpose of your demand than just "as-tu msn?".

"just for a link, msn is more pratical" : explain me where 2 or 3 mails to get a msn adress is more pratical that giving the link directly in your first message anywhere you post it ?

Really I don't understand your way of thinking!

And who's work are you going to publish? Laura's? This forum's?

Well, I must say here that I was surprised to see some translation in French of the C's sessions on his website.
I hope you 've asked for permission Jsf, and that your "bad english" as you say was sufficiently "good" to avoid some big mistakes which could change the meaning of what was said in these sessions. It's a big responsability to translate these writings.

 

[Jsf]

your "bad english" as you say was sufficiently "good" to avoid some big mistakes which could change the meaning of what was said in these sessions. It's a big responsability to translate these writings.

My family speaks english, so I understand, but never talk myself. That's it's more difficult for me to write.

And for the msn address, okay. Why explain all your personal reasons ? I'll not be annoyed because you don't want.

 

[Mat de Monde]

Hi

I'm sorry I didn't read all the discusses for several reasons.
- I noticed a deep lack of humor (Books are only objects. And if that can reassure you, none of them was wounded during our "recreations", our performances being framed by a team of professional stuntmen.)

I also wonder which would have been your reaction, by seeing the video in which I caricature ashtar on a white board...

- I also noticed a strong tendency to condemn 'illico presto' without making the effort to seek five minutes of what it turns over from there. In fact, it seems to me that one calls that prejudices or, at least, an inclination with passive paranoia.

- I don't like the sterile debates so much. In the same kind, on the French forum of SOTT, one finds an attractive (fascinating ?) controversy on the use of the MP.

The type which dares to push the first book of the chain, it is me. I acknowledge. Mea Culpa, Et Caetera, Ad Lib.
I'm a french young man, 23 years old, I live near Nantes, and can ensure you that neither jsf, neither yoshu, nor blackangel are evil SDS (or psychopath-like guys) come to parasitize your job. We are pushed by the same thirst for knowledge.

I won't finish by sentence like : "the life is a wonderful rainbow of love, let us all walk hand in the hand and send positive thoughts", if that can reassure you.

And I apologize for my english-speaking level.

Edit: What is amusing, it is that, little after Laura made the remark (more or less) alleviating: "Hold, you have same address IP, you can be explained?", a great part of the forum reacted as if they were in the presence of a simultaneous attack of the CIA, 4D SDS, various powerful lobbies, etc.

 

[Jsf]

I just saw Joel was banned on the french forum. Esoquest case, of course, remind me some memories - on Opus, there was a guy who came and succeed, with a nice and rose-tinted erudition, a lot of friendly mp's and of course, some subtil hypocrisy, to convince everybody that he was all white and okay.
Few months after, he began to introduce some little fragments of desinfo.
I hate people that just want to "be friendly" and "have some nice relations" with others, with the illusion of giving something - cheer up, reassure, etc. No conflits at all. That obviously feed their predator. But there is a lot of members that fell into its trap.
I banned him after lenghty group discussions. He notice something, this sort of people always DISSOLVE the subjets and debates. It's like water : the forces and the concentrated solutions are eaten by the liquid. It paralyze every action that we do.

Sooo, I think I understand better why there is a high vigilance here. And also why my requets of mail or msn address could be interpretated as a kind of attack. I'm trying to find what can show that I'm not here to take advantage of people or use predation. Hard to believe now, but I only want freedom. As it is the same for SOTT team, I will not criticize your decisions or requirements.

 

[Tigersoap]

I "resisted" because I don't specifically search to "enter", I prefer conflicts.
//No worry, I also feel the "need" to "shake" everyone who is moreless sleepy.// I know that nothing could "save" me now on this topic, and I will not try to be saved or whatever. I am trained to cope with such situations, and I need nothing special. Shall we keep on analyze the discrepancies of my language and attitude, because, as I understood, I have a espacially high egotic sense ? haha ! I suffered of such accusations when I was young, but now, my egoticism is muuchhh bigger, so big that I cannot even see it myself !

Jsf, Although many members have pointed to you your self-importance you're still trying to show everyone how misunderstood and how special you are.

I think I understand parts of why you created the other forum, to keep in control and be at the top because it would be difficult for you to acknowledge that you may be not that far in the work.
Maybe the fear of rejection is strong in you as well hence creating a place where your self-importance won't be scratched is vital for you.

Sure you may have read tons of esoteric book but it does not make you better, or more advanced in the work.

I'm sorry I didn't read all the discusses for several reasons.
- I noticed a deep lack of humor (Books are only objects. And if that can reassure you, none of them was wounded during our "recreations", our performances being framed by a team of professional stuntmen.)

I also wonder which would have been your reaction, by seeing the video in which I caricature ashtar on a white board...

- I also noticed a strong tendency to condemn 'illico presto' without making the effort to seek five minutes of what it turns over from there. In fact, it seems to me that one calls that prejudices or, at least, an inclination with passive paranoia.

- I don't like the sterile debates so much. In the same kind, on the French forum of SOTT, one finds an attractive (fascinating ?) controversy on the use of the MP.

Hello Mat, maybe you should read them though because without the full context your comment will only add noise.

I don't care about the books, I think no one really does, it is just that it looks so juvenile to post a video of yourselves doing dominoes is not really interesting, hence the questions imho.

You may not realize it yet but every little thing you do or read might not be interesting for others ?

That's what bothers me the most with your forum,blogs and so on the purpose is not knowldegde but showing off mostly.
You may be really looking for answers and truth but your need to be special and different will probably cut short your progress osit.

 

[Adaryn]

- I don't like the sterile debates so much. In the same kind, on the French forum of SOTT, one finds an attractive (fascinating ?) controversy on the use of the MP.

Too bad, "sterile debates" can reveal so much about people. The discussion on MPs and the argument that followed with Joel was so instructive. It allowed everyone (including Joel) to realize that he was not at all colinear with the forum's aims. It spared his and everybody's time...

 

[Jsf]

Tigersoap ! How special are you to say :

Jsf, Although many members have pointed to you your self-importance you're still trying to show everyone how misunderstood and how special you are.

?

 

[Tigersoap]

Tigersoap ! How special are you to say :

Jsf, Although many members have pointed to you your self-importance you're still trying to show everyone how misunderstood and how special you are.

?

You'll have to try harder.

 

[Jsf]

Okay, how can you affirm that I have more "self-importance" than you ? Because I am "admin" of a forum and that I have done things alone ?

 

[anart]

The rather clear fact of the matter is that Tigersoap is correct. Jsf cannot see this in himself - he is incapable of it. Perhaps this is due to a deep insecurity created early in childhood. Perhaps this is due to being valued only when he performed to a certain 'gifted' standard - only then was he valued and 'loved' - thus, now, he cannot perceive in himself the machine-like flaws that everyone must work through.

The problem with not seeing these in oneself is that unless these machine-like flaws are seen, they cannot and will never be removed, and he will never be more than a machine.

The sarcasm, striking out, defensiveness and general contempt evidenced in Jsf's responses to those who bring up his self-importance and lack of self-knowledge indicate that the insecurity, the almost panicked need to be seen as 'gifted' and 'special' - to be seen as understanding what others do not - is wholly driving him. This, above all else, indicates that all is not well deep inside Jsf - yet, as I said earlier, it seems he will fight to the death to protect his own perceived 'speshulness'.

 

[ark]

Now, Jsf, either you explain the details (DETAILS) about your group and its activities, or I am going to ban you.

You wrote:

I am trained to cope with such situations, and I need nothing special.

So you have been trained. Let's see how well you have been trained....

 

[blackangel]

Every thought you have, every word you use, every action you take or refrain from taking is clear evidence of your depth of esoteric understanding.

I would like you to tell us why you say this. Can you prove it? I don't really understand your definition of the work, but I need different, contradictory descriptions to understant and to approach the truth.

I'm guessing by your question that you do not agree with what anart wrote. Do you think, then, that our actions are not evidence of anything? That their is no use in analyzing ourselves to understand those mechanical happenings? Are we not machines??

The fact that you have asked this question may indirectly indicate that you disagree with Anart in that everything we say, everything we do, everything (and how) we think about every moment in our lives reveals our true current state of esoteric understanding and development. For as I completely agree with Anart in her evaluation, I would like to ask you What do YOU think is an evidence of esoteric understanding of an individual?

Sorry, I have misunderstood anart's message (the language barrier), I'd read "You jsf, have proven with your messages that you have a lack of esoteric understanding". And it was sincere, I wanted to understand why you said that. Now, it is clear that anart is right but there are things that are obstructing me:

the answers we are getting from Jsf and blackangel seem haughty and full of self importance.

Jsf, Although many members have pointed to you your self-importance you're still trying to show everyone how misunderstood and how special you are.

I think I understand parts of why you created the other forum, to keep in control and be at the top because it would be difficult for you to acknowledge that you may be not that far in the work.
Maybe the fear of rejection is strong in you as well hence creating a place where your self-importance won't be scratched is vital for you.

Sure you may have read tons of esoteric book but it does not make you better, or more advanced in the work.

The rather clear fact of the matter is that Tigersoap is correct. Jsf cannot see this in himself - he is incapable of it. Perhaps this is due to a deep insecurity created early in childhood. Perhaps this is due to being valued only when he performed to a certain 'gifted' standard - only then was he valued and 'loved' - thus, now, he cannot perceive in himself the machine-like flaws that everyone must work through.

I don't like your practice to characterize people, to "put them into boxes". That's sure that many things can be an evidence of depth of esoteric understanding, that's sure that we are machines, but in my opinion, we are complicated machines. I think we cannot set someone in the box of "full self-importance people" after reading few of his messages. Moreover, there are many things which can lead someone to give the impression of "full self-importance people", or so I think.

Your messages, Tigersoap and anart, surprised me. You are elaborating a theory based upon your supposition (may be a bit simpleton and intinsctive, or so I think) that Jsf is a full self-importance person, or so I think. In my opinion, this is a way of manipulation. Giving a logical theory can convince everyone you are alright, even if the theory's roots are wobbly (root= Jsf is a full self-importance person). But this is just my opinion. I'm not trying to manipulate or convince anyone, I'm just giving my opinion about reactions which surprised me.

I didn’t understand your expression ‘playing with books’ in this context and I didn’t understand the expression itself, BTW. How one can ‘play’ with books? So far you seem to be eloquent English speaker to use appropriate coherent terms to express yourself. So what is ‘playing with books’ and in what ways exactly books can be ‘played with?’Could you please elaborate? Thanks.

There isn't any connotation behind this sentence. When I said "playing with books", I wanted to say "playing domino with books" ;)

Could you please elaborate what exactly these studies were about? If your studies did concern pinpointing buffers, programs, and everything else pertaining to the Work, it may be beneficial for us to learn about your studies in detail, osit.

I'd just made a diagram, tried to understand how people and me function compared to the society in general. This diagram changed my life because I realized that all my life I'd just tryed to "go-up" in the social scale, which was of course a wrong goal. I realize also that many, many people were following this goal, and this diagram help me now to detect my "own programs" which lead me to searche to dominate people or to "go up in the social scale". You can find it (for french speakers) here:
_http://www.sadhu.fr/post/2007/06/27/Influence-de-la-societe-sur-lindividu

How so ? What i wrote in that other message, I can see it in myself everytime, I didn't write it because "G said that, so it's the absolute truth".

Apologies, one more time I misunderstand what you were saying in my first reading ;) .

Now, Jsf, either you explain the details (DETAILS) about your group and its activities, or I am going to ban you.

Wow, I believe it's an exaggerated reaction, or so I think. In our group, we are just few young people who are seeking knowledge and truth on alchemy, 4th way etc... in gurdjieff's books, or in Laura's books. One point I have to light: There isn't any chief or leader, I don't has to follow anyone's advise or else. The forum is just online to help us sharing points of view, report of our researchs, to debate and then make everyone progress. There is no "lessons" of Jsf or things like you seems to think, just debates. I read G's books, and many others, and I make my own opinions about the truth or "the work" and then we can debate on our "personal conclusions" to make them evoluate. Moreover there are many "selected pieces of books" in the forum, which help us making our own opinion.

 

[Mat de Monde]

I'm sorry but I'll wrote my message in French, because I don't want to create any quiproquo.

Je n'ai pas très bien saisi ce qui était reproché à Jsf. Ni pourquoi on parle de "notre groupe". Il n'y a pas de groupe, juste les membres d'un forum, créé par Jsf, partageant un point commun : un dégoût généralisé des "influences A" et une recherche / partage de la connaissance, des analyses critiques de méthodes de désinformation, et caetera.

Il n'y a absolument rien de concret à la "Fondation OPUS"; c'est un nom. Et si Yoshu et moi sommes allés chez Jsf, c'était histoire de se rencontrer, tout simplement. Mettre un visage/nom sur un pseudonyme. Et voir une personne se comporter "en vrai" peut être très révélateur. Et Jsf n'a pas de comportement contradictoire à ses paroles. Nous avons ainsi pu échanger des idées, questions, interrogations, etc. On a passé une semaine et demie à lire et réfléchir sur le travail ésotérique. Nous avons appris sur place que Yoshu présentait des symptomes caractéristique d'une forme particulière de schizophrénie. C'est là-bas, c'est-à-dire chez Jsf qu'il a décidé de poster son message. D'où l'adresse IP similaire.

Notre point commun, c'est notre age. Nous sommes tous des jeunes, dans la vingtaine.
La vidéo et les photos ne vous montrerons rien d'autre qu'une petite "pause" dans le travail que nous avons effectué. J'ai été particulièrement maladroit dans mon dernier message et le cynisme/ironie dont j'ai fait preuve n'était pas très très fin. Mea Culpa.

Je ne pensais pas que ça irait jusqu'a un "ban" potentiel de Jsf.

Loin de moi l'idée de jouer à "l'avocat du Diable", mais le forum (et non groupe) auquel nous participons semble être la victime d'une attaque généralisée, sac de noeud que j'aimerais voir se résoudre tranquillement.
Je comprends pourquoi la méfiance est de mise sur ce forum, je commence seulement à découvrir les effets pervers de la désinformation alors que pour certains d'entre vous bossez depuis des années là dessus. Et l'adresse IP identique entre le message de Yoshu et ceux de Jsf ont eu de quoi alimenter une psychose.

Notre seul but est de partager des informations, vécu d'expérience relatées le plus objectivement possible, s'aider mutuellement à atteindre "plus d'objectivité", et caetera.

The rather clear fact of the matter is that Tigersoap is correct. Jsf cannot see this in himself - he is incapable of it. Perhaps this is due to a deep insecurity created early in childhood. Perhaps this is due to being valued only when he performed to a certain 'gifted' standard - only then was he valued and 'loved' - thus, now, he cannot perceive in himself the machine-like flaws that everyone must work through.

Jsf est une personne d'une rare profondeur, pour quelqu'un de son age. N'allez pas voir du fanatisme dans cette déclaration, juste une constatation lucide. Il va droit au but et ne perd pas son temps à passer de la pommade. Ca ressemble à de l'arrogance, mais ce n'est pas de l'arrogance. Moi-même j'ai eu du mal au départ.

Bon j'espère que quelqu'un prendra le soin de traduire. Je m'excuse d'avoir rédigé tout ce message en français, mais je le répète j'avais peur d'écrire des contresens et d'aboutir à des quiproquos. Je comprends bien l'anglais, mais pour écrire dans cette langue, c'est une autre paire de manche.

 

[anart]

Your messages, Tigersoap and anart, surprised me. You are elaborating a theory based upon your supposition (may be a bit simpleton and intinsctive, or so I think) that Jsf is a full self-importance person, or so I think. In my opinion, this is a way of manipulation. Giving a logical theory can convince everyone you are alright, even if the theory's roots are wobbly (root= Jsf is a full self-importance person). But this is just my opinion. I'm not trying to manipulate or convince anyone, I'm just giving my opinion about reactions which surprised me.

This is not surprising since you are Jsf's friend and you know him in a way we do not. However, please do not think that this analysis of his behavior is based on this thread alone. Jsf has evidenced this exact behavior consistently for over 8 months and 143 messages on this forum. He has also evidenced this behavior on the French forum.

He has evidenced it consistently enough that a very clear pattern has emerged - one that is easily discernable and not 'wobbly' at all.

I could be mistaken, but it seems to me that you are 'critically correcting' for Jsf - meaning that since you know him in person, you are 'making excuses' in your own mind for his often arrogant (self-important) behavior. This is not unusual at all, however, it is blocking you from seeing the situation objectively. That is simply my understanding of the situation at this point in time.

Wow, I believe it's an exaggerated reaction, or so I think. In our group, we are just few young people who are seeking knowledge and truth on alchemy, gurdjieff's books, or in Laura's books. One point I have to light: There isn't any chief or leader, I don't has to follow anyone's advise or else. The forum is just online to help us sharing points of view, report of our researchs, to debate and then make everyone progress. There is no "lessons" of Jsf or things like you seems to think, just debates.

Actually, it is not an exaggerated reaction at all. This forum serves a very distinct purpose and over the past 8 months, Jsf has often posted things that are contrary to that purpose. Because of his age, and what seemed to be a willingness to at least consider what was being said to him, he was allowed to stay. Now, we have more information - we have information that indicates much more may be going on here.

As far as Mat's message, I do not read French, but something tells me it is not a very 'positive' one - and that he too has taken offense to my 'take' on where Jsf is coming from at the moment. I would like to make it clear that my understanding is a hypothesis only, and that, in a very real way, I was being generous with such ideas - there are other possibilities that speak to a much deeper pathology, but it is rather difficult to tell for sure at this time.

 

[domi]

As far as Mat's message, I do not read French, but something tells me it is not a very 'positive' one

I will translate and update below... (other french speakers please review and correct any translation errors)

Je n'ai pas très bien saisi ce qui était reproché à Jsf. Ni pourquoi on parle de "notre groupe". Il n'y a pas de groupe, juste les membres d'un forum, créé par Jsf, partageant un point commun : un dégoût généralisé des "influences A" et une recherche / partage de la connaissance, des analyses critiques de méthodes de désinformation, et caetera.

I haven't grasped very well what Jsf has been accused of. Neither why one is talking of "our group". There is no group, just members of a forum created by Jsf, sharing a common point: a general disgust of "A influences" and research/sharing of the knowledge, critical analysis of disinformation methods, etc.

Il n'y a absolument rien de concret à la "Fondation OPUS"; c'est un nom. Et si Yoshu et moi sommes allés chez Jsf, c'était histoire de se rencontrer, tout simplement. Mettre un visage/nom sur un pseudonyme. Et voir une personne se comporter "en vrai" peut être très révélateur. Et Jsf n'a pas de comportement contradictoire à ses paroles. Nous avons ainsi pu échanger des idées, questions, interrogations, etc. On a passé une semaine et demie à lire et réfléchir sur le travail ésotérique. Nous avons appris sur place que Yoshu présentait des symptomes caractéristique d'une forme particulière de schizophrénie. C'est là-bas, c'est-à-dire chez Jsf qu'il a décidé de poster son message. D'où l'adresse IP similaire.

The is absolutely nothing concrete about the "OPUS foundation"; it's a name. And when Yoshu and I went to visit Jsf, it was, very simply, to meet. Putting a face/name with a username. And seeing a person behave "live" can be very revealing. And Jsf doesn't have any behaviour contradictory to his words. In this way we were able to exchange ideas, questions, qeustioning, etc. We spent one and a half weeks reading and reflecting on the esoteric work. We found out on the spot that Yoshu was suffering from characteristic symptoms of a particular form of schizophrenie. That's where, that is to say at Jsf's, that he decided to post his message. Resulting in the similar IP address.

Notre point commun, c'est notre age. Nous sommes tous des jeunes, dans la vingtaine.
La vidéo et les photos ne vous montrerons rien d'autre qu'une petite "pause" dans le travail que nous avons effectué. J'ai été particulièrement maladroit dans mon dernier message et le cynisme/ironie dont j'ai fait preuve n'était pas très très fin. Mea Culpa.

The thing we have in common is our age. We are all young, in our twenties.
The video and the photos don't show anything other than a small "pause" in the work we had been doing. I was very clumsy in my last message and the cynisism/irony I have shown was not very refined. Mea culpa.

Je ne pensais pas que ça irait jusqu'a un "ban" potentiel de Jsf.

I didn't know it would come to a potential "ban" of Jsf.

Loin de moi l'idée de jouer à "l'avocat du Diable", mais le forum (et non groupe) auquel nous participons semble être la victime d'une attaque généralisée, sac de noeud que j'aimerais voir se résoudre tranquillement.
Je comprends pourquoi la méfiance est de mise sur ce forum, je commence seulement à découvrir les effets pervers de la désinformation alors que pour certains d'entre vous bossez depuis des années là dessus. Et l'adresse IP identique entre le message de Yoshu et ceux de Jsf ont eu de quoi alimenter une psychose.

It's far from me to play "Devil's advocate", but the forum (and non-group) in which we participate seems the victim of a general attack, a bunch of knots that I would like to see quietly resolved [translation notes: reference to knots implies something tangled; maybe somebody else has a better translation]
I understand why there is distrust on this forum, I am just starting to discover the pervers effects of disinformation when some of you have been working on that for years. And the identical IP address between the message of Yoshu and those of Jsf have been feeding a psychosis.

Notre seul but est de partager des informations, vécu d'expérience relatées le plus objectivement possible, s'aider mutuellement à atteindre "plus d'objectivité", et caetera.

Our sole goal is to share information, real of experiences related in the most objective way possible, help eachother at reaching "more objectivity", etc.

Bon j'espère que quelqu'un prendra le soin de traduire. Je m'excuse d'avoir rédigé tout ce message en français, mais je le répète j'avais peur d'écrire des contresens et d'aboutir à des quiproquos. Je comprends bien l'anglais, mais pour écrire dans cette langue, c'est une autre paire de manche.

Good, I hope somebody will take care translating. I apologize for having composed the whole message in French, but I repeat I am afraid to write anything with opposite meaning and to get into misunderstandings. I understand english well, but to write in that language, that's another thing.