Schizophrenia, The Work, etc

Jsf wrote:

I already said (the group) was structured by some people of the opus forum (but we are currently searching for (one or several) physical place(s)).
So forum is not "the group". So what is this group? Who is searching for "physical" place? What are you going to do at this physical place? Teach? If so, what exactly are you going to "teach"? Or do alchemical experiments? What kind of "alchemical experimets"? Is the infamous roommate/non-roommate of Jsf also an alchemist? Is he a member of this "group"?
 
Ok, know, this is my point of view:

anart said:
This is not surprising since you are Jsf's friend and you know him in a way we do not.
anart said:
I could be mistaken, but it seems to me that you are 'critically correcting' for Jsf - meaning that since you know him in person, you are 'making excuses' in your own mind for his often arrogant (self-important) behavior. This is not unusual at all, however, it is blocking you from seeing the situation objectively. That is simply my understanding of the situation at this point in time.
I know you are right. May be I'm not seeing Jsf objectively. I know Jsf is arrogant, but there is a contradiction for me. Jsf has bring me some knowledge about the 4th way and the "Programs" and other things. I know he works very very much in this "esoteric work", and it seems very amazing that someone who knows the esoteric works, even a bit, and who spend so much time on this, why would he let run so many, so big and so obvious programs without trying to control them, even a bit?

In my opinion, the Jsf's problem is that he his very 'defensive'. It could be an explanation more logical, or so I think. I know Jsf had social problems, to integrate in the society or else, that could explain the "defensive mechanism" which is in my opinion more difficult to find and eradicate, more "anchored" in his personality that a "self-importance research program".

Tell me what you think about it.
 
BlackAngel said:
I don't like your practice to characterize people, to "put them into boxes". That's sure that many things can be an evidence of depth of esoteric understanding, that's sure that we are machines, but in my opinion, we are complicated machines. I think we cannot set someone in the box of "full self-importance people" after reading few of his messages. Moreover, there are many things which can lead someone to give the impression of "full self-importance people", or so I think.

Your messages, Tigersoap and anart, surprised me. You are elaborating a theory based upon your supposition (may be a bit simpleton and intinsctive, or so I think) that Jsf is a full self-importance person, or so I think. In my opinion, this is a way of manipulation. Giving a logical theory can convince everyone you are alright, even if the theory's roots are wobbly (root= Jsf is a full self-importance person). But this is just my opinion. I'm not trying to manipulate or convince anyone, I'm just giving my opinion about reactions which surprised me.
Sorry, BA, but you misunderstand the purpose and function of this forum. Let me explain for you.

This forum is a laboratory. It is a lab where members of QFS practice certain skills that many of them have been learning for years. It is also a classroom where QFS members teach these skills to others. The primary skills needed to do esoteric work are 1) Know yourself; 2) Know others so as to conserve energy. The Cs call it "seeing the unseen." This process includes separating "A" influences from "B" influences, but that is actually very primitive activity to what we do and teach.

Now, as I have written elsewhere in this forum, it seems quite obvious that any individual who wishes to pursue esoteric studies ought to have a clean and fully functional and most of all HEALTHY psyche before he goes wandering off into unknown realms. After all, if your psychological state is such that you cannot deal effectively with your everyday life, how can you possibly trust such a psychological state not to mislead you in studies where you have fewer solid landmarks or feedback mechanisms to guide you?

And so, the very FIRST order of business in any esoteric work is to get psychologically healthy. That's basically what the Gurdjieff "self-remembering" and Mouravieff "introspection" and Castaneda "recapitulation" is all about.

Sure, it can be referred to in nebulous ways such as "the work of sorcerers" and "recapturing energy" and so on, but it can also be talked about in very practical, scientific, modern terminology with definite examples and techniques for accomplishing this important work of knowing your machine, cleaning and adjusting it so that it works properly, and preparing oneself for more "interesting" esoteric work.

Ark has over 30 years as an educator and working with Fourth Way materials; I spent 25 years doing hypnotherapy and raising 5 children; there's not much in the way of games and manipulations that slips past us. The Cs material built on these experiences, and we have learned a great deal more in the past 13 years with the Cs and working with online groups.

For the most part, until a person is able to balance their centers, which is where we concentrate our initial work, almost nothing else can proceed at ANY level without danger of contamination by the wrong energy in the wrong center at the wrong time, etc. In other words, working within the network in an absolutely sincere way is crucial to "tuning the instrument" and having the ways and means to accommodate reading errors. Without that, a person simply cannot know whether or not they are completely colinear" and whether or not their views are not the result of reading errors.

Let me try to give an example.

Imagine a group of people all working together and trying to learn and practice access to higher realities. The hypothesis they have is that there IS another level of reality and they know that the signals of this reality are very, very subtle and not measurable in the ordinary way. There is no mechanical device they can build to detect or measure them. Yet, they know from experience and spontaneous phenomena that there ARE such signals. And they theorize about this other reality based on what they can discern from these signals.

And so, they conclude that the "instrument" that they need to work with is the most complex of them all: their own "being" which includes not only their physiology, but also the theorized "soul" and its theorized "organs of perception."

And so, they decide that the best way to approach the experiment is to first study everything about their own "instrument," i.e. the body and psyche and all its "feelings" and impulses, etc, and compare one to another in order to begin to find and establish a baseline.

Once they have a baseline they can then begin to assess the myriad signals that enter the system.

How are they going to do this?

They MUST have feedback. If a signal comes in, there must be some way set-up so that they can check the signal against a "fact."

Using the example of telepathy, if someone gets an "impression" or a "feeling" or "sees a vision" or whatever the signal might be, they MUST have someone or something to either confirm or falsify it.

If it can be confirmed as being accurate because there is feedback (the person about whom the signal comes can give this), then they know what the signal is and that it is an accurate reading.

If, on the other hand, they find that their interpretation of the signal is wrong, then they have to go back and find out if it was a misreading, a false signal, or whatever.

Only in this way will they be able to build a solid, repeatable basis for interpreting signals from the environment first, and the theorized higher reality second.

It's rather like learning a completely new language. There are many aspects to a language that are important. There is the alphabet, there are the rules for how the letters may go together, how words may go together, pronunciation, inflection, syntax, grammar and so on.

All of this has a relationship to the work of a network as described above.

Such work, as you can see, can NOT be done alone. And secondly, if there is anyone at all involved in the network who is "holding back" or not being forthcoming, does not know their machine, or have pathological deficits, it can throw everyone's "reading mechanism" off. They will be getting signals that they cannot interpret because someone is not being sincere.

And this description I have just given you is exactly what we do.

We have been doing it for quite some time, also. We have a baseline, we have spent years practicing with very good results, and we have now created a laboratory for practicing and teaching a wider group.

When the moderators of this forum, and many of the regular members, make assessments, they are not just talking through their hat. Their evaluations are based on a tried and tested method - a 4th way concept of "The Mirror."

The Mirror can certainly be a "socially unpleasant" ordeal, but it is necessary to clean the machine. It is also a very good way to find out what "stuff" an individual is made of.

Your response to the practice of the mirror is quite typical of an individual who is not familiar with the deeper levels of 4th way work. As Gurdjieff points out, a man will be good to you as long as you are good to him, so it is necessary to "scratch" him a little to see what is hidden behind the mask.

If you read the rules of the forum you will note what this forum is for and how we work. If you are unfamiliar with those ideas, concepts, and practices, perhaps you are simply not ready for real Work. And do not think that it is not Work. It is very hard work, and as Mme. De Salzmann wrote, "But you will see that it is not easy. And it is not cheap. You must pay dearly. For bad payers, lazy people, parasites, no hope. You must pay, pay a lot, and pay immediately, pay in advance. Pay with yourself. By sincere, conscientious, disinterested efforts. The more you are prepared to pay without economizing, without cheating, without any falsification, the more you will receive."

So far, all we have seen is laziness, insincerity, cheating, falsification, and lies. And, as Jimi Hendrix said, "We are experienced."
 
So forum is not "the group". So what is this group? Who is searching for "physical" place?
The forum itself is not "the groupe", some people of the forum constitute a "group" and we think of some more frequent meetings, and a place for that. This is too early to talk about.

What are you going to do at this physical place? Teach? If so, what exactly are you going to "teach"?
Concepts and systems as a basis for "the work".

Or do alchemical experiments? What kind of "alchemical experimets"? Is the infamous roommate/non-roommate of Jsf also an alchemist? Is he a member of this "group"?
No alchemical experiments for the moment. Perhaps in the future, it could be an idea.
 
Jsf - you did not answer all my questions. This is a warning. You have your last chance.
 
ba said:
Sorry, I have misunderstood anart's message (the language barrier), I'd read "You jsf, have proven with your messages that you have a lack of esoteric understanding". And it was sincere, I wanted to understand why you said that. Now, it is clear that anart is right but there are things that are obstructing me:
If you want to understand why this was said, please review the entire thread here, then look up other threads by Jsf. What I’m curious about is why you talk to the forum here like we are a bunch of kids? Many here are old enough to be your grandparents, and what is evident is that they see a lack of self restraint, and an overabundance of self importance in your’s and Jsf’s post.

I’m guessing but maybe you all are about 17/18/19 years old? Some of the people here have been working on this stuff for as long as 7 years. Laura has been working on it for the last 20 and more. Please do the math. Do you think you know more than any person here? Your posts sure sound like you do, yet have a cruel, know-it-all flavor to them. When you were challenged to prove what you know, instead of discussing it, you both reverted to a patronizing tone.

ba said:
I don't like your practice to characterize people, to "put them into boxes". That's sure that many things can be an evidence of depth of esoteric understanding, that's sure that we are machines, but in my opinion, we are complicated machines. I think we cannot set someone in the box of "full self-importance people" after reading few of his messages. Moreover, there are many things which can lead someone to give the impression of "full self-importance people", or so I think.
No one was characterizing or “putting them into boxes”. If you go back to the beginning of the thread and read it, it started with simple questions put to Jsf. Instead of answering said questions, to clear up the confusion, Jsf simply added to the confusion and noise by becoming “superior” in his attitude. Like a spoiled child, IMHO. You guys cornered yourselves.

ba said:
Your messages, Tigersoap and anart, surprised me. You are elaborating a theory based upon your supposition (may be a bit simpleton and intinsctive, or so I think) that Jsf is a full self-importance person, or so I think. In my opinion, this is a way of manipulation. Giving a logical theory can convince everyone you are alright, even if the theory's roots are wobbly (root= Jsf is a full self-importance person). But this is just my opinion. I'm not trying to manipulate or convince anyone, I'm just giving my opinion about reactions which surprised me.
The are not elaborating on a theory, they have reacted to the statements of Jsf and yourself. And who are you to imply they are simpletons? This is a typical psychopathic response. Instead of getting the questions answered, all we have gotten are insulting posts from the both of you. The evidence stands on its own merit. Simply read the replies and see for yourself. Jsf comes off as knowing it all, but when asked to show how he knows it, he reverts to this childish game. Then you come along to defend him without really KNOWING what the issues are about.

ba said:
There isn't any connotation behind this sentence. When I said "playing with books", I wanted to say "playing domino with books" ;)
Something we “older folks” were taught in our youth was to have respect for books. This is something I’ve noticed is lacking in today’s generation. Many of us grew up in an era that taught us that books=knowledge and that having respect for such things is paramount. Call it a program, if you will, but it makes sense to me. Books are usually the first things to be gotten rid of (burned) when knowledge is being attacked. Some of us actually went to schools where we would be punished for playing dominoes with books. Are you not aware of things that came before you? If not, then you should not jump to conclusions about what other people think, and try to twist what they say. This is obviously a piece of knowledge that you lack, and your statements and actions reflect this.

ba said:
I'd just made a diagram, tried to understand how people and me function compared to the society in general. This diagram changed my life because I realized that all my life I'd just tryed to "go-up" in the social scale, which was of course a wrong goal. I realize also that many, many people were following this goal, and this diagram help me now to detect my "own programs" which lead me to searche to dominate people or to "go up in the social scale". You can find it (for french speakers) here:
_http://www.sadhu.fr/post/2007/06/27/Influence-de-la-societe-sur-lindividu
I think there is more needed than a diagram. What exactly have you read from the Cassiopaea site? Have you read The Wave, Adventures, Signs news page? Have you read any of the material that is freely available on the site? Have you READ the books in the domino game? It seems to me that if you had read the material, that your attitude towards it would not be so flippant. It’s also obvious that you do not understand what this forum is about. THIS IS what this forum is about, getting the cobwebs out, and shining the light. This is a process by which questions are asked. If you do not understand this, then the both of you are here without having read the guidelines, and have no clue, really.

ba said:
Wow, I believe it's an exaggerated reaction, or so I think. In our group, we are just few young people who are seeking knowledge and truth on alchemy, 4th way etc... in gurdjieff's books, or in Laura's books. One point I have to light: There isn't any chief or leader, I don't has to follow anyone's advise or else. The forum is just online to help us sharing points of view, report of our researchs, to debate and then make everyone progress. There is no "lessons" of Jsf or things like you seems to think, just debates. I read G's books, and many others, and I make my own opinions about the truth or "the work" and then we can debate on our "personal conclusions" to make them evoluate. Moreover there are many "selected pieces of books" in the forum, which help us making our own opinion.
I’m not sure what you mean by “exaggerated reaction”. Your comment to Feather was downright insulting and severely lacking in self control and external consideration. If your group (as you say) is a few young people, then what makes you think that you know more than anyone here who’s done the required reading and started the work on themselves? Perhaps you do need some guidance over there if you are just a group of young people. Seems to me that you cannot possibly squeeze all the work into the few short years that you’ve been aware of it. This is evidenced in your posts. Some people here have been doing this most of YOUR lifetime, yet you act as if you are more learned on the subject.

Jsf was asked to clarify something. Perhaps he did not answer the questions, but I think we have all the clarification we need now.

Peg
 
ba said:
In my opinion, the Jsf's problem is that he his very 'defensive'. It could be an explanation more logical, or so I think. I know Jsf had social problems, to integrate in the society or else, that could explain the "defensive mechanism" which is in my opinion more difficult to find and eradicate, more "anchored" in his personality that a "self-importance research program".
Hopefully Laura's post has cleared up a bit of your understanding of our forum. To address your post, I would have to say yes, this could certainly be the case - the defensiveness could indicate a deep insecurity, and the 'self-importance' could simply be another facet of that defensiveness. When you consider it in a very simple manner, if one's self-identity is linked to being 'gifted', but they harbor an internal fear that they are not, then they often mask that by being overly self-important, by explaining to others that they DO know much more than anyone else, that the ARE special.

Basically, it is as Shakespeare said, " '(h)e' doth protest too much".

The self-importance and arrogance could simply be another way to be 'defensive'. However, that is not to say that there is not more behind it. It could be a maladaptive behavior that has grown from deeply held insecurity, and in that case, it can be remedied with a LOT of Work - if the person chooses to change it, which would necessarily be preceded by understanding that it is a problem; that it does exist.

Or, it could be indicative of a deeper pathology.

In either case, this sort of 'defensiveness' (which is also self-importance) should, at the very least, be understood to be a sign that one does not have a deep level of self-knowledge, which is critical to have if one is going to progress in esoteric work, much less teach others.

This is what I mean when I have said that Jsf does not 'See' himself. I hope that makes a bit more sense.
 
ark said:
Jsf - you did not answer all my questions. This is a warning. You have your last chance.
For the moment, we will not understand ourselves. So, Ark, I must leave. Have a good evening.
 
Just an aside...

I've known several "gifted" and brilliant children. Not one of them developed this self importance later in life as teens. As a matter of fact, they've become quite the opposite; caring, sensitive, responsible human adults. Never have I known any of them to be insulting, defensive, or act with self importance. My own observation is that they take great pains to appear and be like the rest of us and not so gifted so as not to make others uncomfortable in their presence. They have great compassion and are quite good at "reading" others so as not to step on any toes.

Just thought this might clear something up.

Peg
 
Not one of them developed this self importance later in life as teens.
No. I know, went to see, and worked with several of the main leading researcher on gifted children, especially on "high IQ" who don't are simply "gifted" but "lucid" and "naturally objective". A lot of them appear "insulting, defensive" because they just keep silent and the world and the predation require them to be a source of energy. I was and I know gifted children exhausted, killed, by that. This is tragic, and now I do what I have to do.
 
Jsf said:
ark said:
Jsf - you did not answer all my questions. This is a warning. You have your last chance.
For the moment, we will not understand ourselves. So, Ark, I must leave. Have a good evening.
Or, in other words, not willing to deal with the questions, he's running away.

But it is phrased in his typical, arrogant fashion. He can't admit that the people here have seen something in him that is true. He thinks it is a question of misunderstanding.

However, we understand all too well. Jsf considers that he is a teacher. For whatever the reason, perhaps the ones anart has raised, he isn't ready to face it. If there is a misunderstanding here, it is in Jsf's complete lack of understanding of what the Work is really about.

The Work is serious stuff. It isn't something to be bandied about like the books in the video. It is not a game, as we repeat over and over again. It is a question of your soul, and if you don't understand why that is important, then you have no business pretending and engaging in fantasy work.
 
Or, in other words, not willing to deal with the questions, he's running away.
I cannot endlessly write answer here with a such mutual incomprehension. I have serious works to do, also, and little time. It is not a game, as Galahad said. I've done jokes of the more serious stuffs. It's like a blasphemy, here. But thanks, everybody, to have spent yours [time] on this topic, In fact, I'm pleased to had this stormy discussions.
 
Actually, what serious work can you accomplish in your current condition?

No... you ARE running away, simply because you are now exposed.
 
Jsf said:
Not one of them developed this self importance later in life as teens.
No. I know, went to see, and worked with several of the main leading researcher on gifted children, especially on "high IQ" who don't are simply "gifted" but "lucid" and "naturally objective". A lot of them appear "insulting, defensive" because they just keep silent and the world and the predation require them to be a source of energy. I was and I know gifted children exhausted, killed, by that. This is tragic, and now I do what I have to do.
Sounds remarkably like the 'Indigo Children' Psyops - , which is discussed in this article on psychopathy http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=2730 .

Jsf seems to consider himself 'naturally objective' - at this point, it is becoming much more difficult to rule out a pathology. Fwiw. I find it fascinating that he's posted two posts after his 'I must leave' grand 'exit' - that is quite telling as well.
 
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