Schizophrenia, The Work, etc

[blackangel]

This is an non-answer. You attempted to shift the discussion away from the original question posted by Tigersoap. That is manipulative, whether conscious or not.

May not be manipulative, but I think I took the tigersoap message like an attack, like a "You are copying our website" and I was on a defensive position.

Ok. So why post it here? It's essentially an "inside joke". No one except those either present or in the know would understand what is going on. It's not useful for this forum. It's noise. Yet, you think this is all some sort of joke. Worse yet, the video was posted in The Work section of this forum. It's anything but Work.

Ask to Jsf ;)

But it's quite ironic that you managed provide a very sound example of exactly the idea that Feather was attempting to communicate. I'm fairly sure THAT was by accident!

That was by accident. But know, I understand ;) .

Do you discard G's teachings because they do not line up with your own ideas, or are you critical and analytical about yourself and not just other people?

I don't discard Gurdjieff's teachings, I have all of his books, but I try to understand what is concretely his idea of the work.

And now for a curiosity question: Why did you pick the username "blackangel"?

Oh, this is just because I took this username many years ago, when I was younger, because I had a "gothic period" :)

 

[anart]

I think I've made this analogy(pissing comment) to intensify my impression, to make you understanding how I feel about the Feather message. I don't think it was a "manipulative argument". It might be to make me higher than you in a social scale.

Apologies, but I do not understand what you mean by this. Higher than Feather (or me) on a social scale? How could being unable to urinate in a commode make you higher than anyone on a social scale? Again, apologies, but I understood most of what you wrote, except for this.

Yes, I'm familiar. Thank you for your quote, it is interesting. I've always had problems to understand how I can work concretely. Studying my own reactions to external influences? Increasing the pressure by getting more and more "shocks"? Why? Do these shocks increase the automatic reactions, and then I could study them?

That is the general idea, but one cannot do it alone, or with others who are asleep. Ultimately, the goal is to remove all mechanical reactions - what you experience with shocks, or 'defensive positions'. In order to do that, one must first observe them and understand them, which can only happen while they occur - thus the necessity for shocks.

However, if one defends these 'mechanical reactions' - and fights for them, insisting they are correct and others are wrong or simply don't understand, then one may never 'wake up' and remain lost in their dreams where the reactions are their reality. This is an extremely simplified explanation, but, for what it's worth.

 

[blackangel]

Apologies, but I do not understand what you mean by this. Higher than Feather (or me) on a social scale? How could being unable to urinate in a commode make you higher than anyone on a social scale? Again, apologies, but I understood most of what you wrote, except for this.

The example of pissing was chose because it looked stupid and set a connotation of stupidity above the feather's msg. In my precedent studies, I've concluded than when someone tries to "lower" someone else, it is always to "go-up" himself in a social scale.

And, on your quotes, I'm not Jsf ;)

 

[anart]

And, on your quotes, I'm not Jsf wink

Pardon? I was responding to what you had written, not jsf. The example of defending one's mechanical reactions applies to every one of us, not just Jsf - and not just you.

The example of pissing was chose because it looked stupid and set a connotation of stupidity above the feather's msg. In my precedent studies, I've concluded than when someone tries to "lower" someone else, it is always to "go-up" himself in a social scale.

Interesting. That must be a cultural thing. It does not work that way in my culture.

 

[blackangel]

Pardon? I was responding to what you had written, not jsf. The example of defending one's mechanical reactions applies to every one of us, not just Jsf - and not just you.

You quotted my msg but, in your post, the quote belong to jsf. -> Jsf wrote....

 

[anart]

Pardon? I was responding to what you had written, not jsf. The example of defending one's mechanical reactions applies to every one of us, not just Jsf - and not just you.

You quotted my msg but, in your post, the quote belong to jsf. -> Jsf wrote....

Ahhh! Got it - fixed it - thank you.

 

[j0da]

Jsf and HeyMrYoshu - coming back to this video of yours - "Esoteric Work" - is this how you understand The Work?

This sentence made me laughing. Playing with books is OBVIOUSLY not a sign of disrespect. I really don't understand why you say this. I imagine you are mind-formatted and you make a relation (which is clearly wrong) between playing with books and don't respect the books' authors or the knowledge. In my opinion, even if I was not here, they played with books to "clear their mind" after hours of work :) .

Well, I admit, it may be a cultural thing, or something I was accustomed to in my house - respect for books - "mind formatting" like you say. I might have even made wrong relation of "playing with books" and "lack of respect". But then, why would it make you laughing? Is this what you do in your "group" when you see someone's program?

 

[Jsf]

In "Life Is Real Only Then, When I Am", Gurdjieff says :

Second: whomever I should meet, for business, commerce or any other purpose, whether an old or new acquaintance, and whatever his social standing might be, I had immediately to discover his "most sensitive corn" and "press" it rather hard.

and :

Although all the strange will-tasks and original principles which I have applied to life during the last seven years are, as already stated, elucidated in the subsequent text of this book, yet the feelings of admiration and gratitude overflowing in me bid the whole of me here, in the initial chapter, to comment on that principle of mine for outer life which unexpectedly became for me, so to say, the "inexhaustible source."
I refer to that already-mentioned principle which I characterized by the words "to press the most sensitive corn of everyone I met."
Thanks to this principle, which turned out to be miracle-working for me, I, besides having always and everywhere an abundance of material for my chief aim, that is, for my regeneration, also, thanks only to it, so affected everyone who met me, that he himself, without any effort on my part whatsoever, as if with great satisfaction and complete readiness, took off his mask presented to him with great solemnity by his papa and mama; and thanks to this I at once acquired an unprecedentedly easy possibility of unhurriedly and quietly feasting my eyes on what his inner world contained, not only of the accidentally surviving worthy data proper to man, but also of all the nauseating filth accumulated from his absolutely abnormal so-called "education."

And glossary says :

Thus, external considering involves for example not talking about things which would simply offend others' beliefs or simply not be understood.

Now, I think it's rather interesting to see how these two things can be integrated. My personal 'solution' has been to successively altern "pressing the most sensitive corn" and then, show some external consideration.

What I still don't understand is : how "domino video" + "the piss story" and other ridiculous things can make vomit all the esoteric teachings of G. and co. I mean : to hear such reactions, I just had to send some little stupid jokes, and say "eh, I've some kind of high understanding of things" to obtain : "dirty crook ! cheater ! go to hell ! you're obviously a living non-sens".

But I will not stop playing with books if I want to, only because my attitude seems incoherent to others.

Well, that could be my personal error to had keep up answering on this topic, but I don't regret it, it is worthwhile. I'm free. I always act and speak consciously, even the domino stuff, and all that. Weird, uh ? I never hoped to have any consideration or “my place” on SOTT, since I don't master english and cannot always answer correctly,
But also, if I claim to have some personal knownledge, it would obviously be suspect (a plot of all the buffers, the mecanicity, ignorance and the suffisance that I hopelessly seems to have). And, in result, I will not have the luck to be accepted as a "sincere folk". Moreover, I noted something strange : each of us pretend that he has an more advanced knowledge than the others - of course, many of the SOTT members built a "core" to be more powerful than alone, and that's why there is no apparent intern quarrels.
But it is underlying in many comments that I read on this post, that, "SOTT" moderators and some few members are higly experienced because chosen by the team. That's why almost nobody has express some little doubts in all the "accusations" I had ?

I don't consider that it is possible to value people like that - rather quick "entrance examination". I "resisted" because I don't specifically search to "enter", I prefer conflicts. I am not searching for a wrong estime, respect. Everyone could have a precise, profound, and accurate understanding of one or another part of the life of man. It's when all these understandings come together that the perception goes wider. I retain the idea that knowledge is fragmented, various, and that links between each "fragment" always need to be woven in order to create a "magnetic center" of knowledge. I don't feel to have difficulties in the practice of "external consideration", in fact, I had to adjust my behaving since my birth. The main difficulty is to endure this, and, the only way it can be endured it's by the grow of a magnetic and non-fragmentary center which can "stay what I am"."Staying what I am", in this case, is only possible if the magnetic center has join the essence. It is not possible (or, with great pain) to "copy" others like organic portals do, because the essence implores to live. And, furthermore, it is impossible to not 'externally considerate" if one has a high level of sensibility.

You cannot contradict me here by saying "you are manipulative, without external consideration, you are sleeping", etc, with the help of many quotes and all the things that can help you to prove that I lie in a ... oh, so poor condition. The fact is that in the field of "the work", theory and practice, everyone can think he is somewhat superior than the others who have not understood some important or critical things. No worry, I also feel the "need" to "shake" everyone who is moreless sleepy. That's not the motivation 'you' also have towards me ? Or to obnoxiously 'protect' other people form my 'influence', like blackangel ? It seems positive, as well, but quickly done : there is not much data on 'myself', yes, there is not much, oh, there is, of course, the dominos, the superficial, blasphemous and horrible acts I spread and your minds which have tough aspirations. There is also my astral-desinfo stage that everybody here has in memory.

How can tough aspirations and hard work could be bewildered by these things ? I agree, I didn't gave any proof of what I know of the 'work', but it will soon be possible to check if it's, or not, valid. To tell that it is incorrect without any data it's a rather quick jump. Oh, I am becoming too serious. Anyway, I know that nothing could "save" me now on this topic, and I will not try to be saved or whatever. I am trained to cope with such situations, and I need nothing special. Shall we keep on analyze the discrepancies of my language and attitude, because, as I understood, I have a espacially high egotic sense ? haha ! I suffered of such accusations when I was young, but now, my egoticism is muuchhh bigger, so big that I cannot even see it myself ! What a pitty, should I be more cruel when I observe my condition, maybe ?! Right ! Tell me more about what I have to do ! hahaha ! I'm searching for what could be answered to this post - (since) there is always a blindness somewhere in everyone, alas!... oops, that's your work !

 

[blackangel]

But then, why would it make you laughing?

Because, in my head, to say we have to "respect an object" seems very absurd, and one of the causes of the humour is the absurdity. So it made me laughing.

Is this what you do in your "group" when you see someone's program?

Obviously No, but why not? Laughing about someone may arise in himself other programs so it could help him evoluate.

And you, what was your reaction when you saw that i've laugh reading your message? Autodefense to protect ego?

 

[CarpeDiem]

Every thought you have, every word you use, every action you take or refrain from taking is clear evidence of your depth of esoteric understanding.

I would like you to tell us why you say this. Can you prove it?

The fact that you have asked this question may indirectly indicate that you disagree with Anart in that everything we say, everything we do, everything (and how) we think about every moment in our lives reveals our true current state of esoteric understanding and development. For as I completely agree with Anart in her evaluation, I would like to ask you What do YOU think is an evidence of esoteric understanding of an individual?

Playing with books is OBVIOUSLY not a sign of disrespect.

I didn’t understand your expression ‘playing with books’ in this context and I didn’t understand the expression itself, BTW. How one can ‘play’ with books? So far you seem to be eloquent English speaker to use appropriate coherent terms to express yourself. So what is ‘playing with books’ and in what ways exactly books can be ‘played with?’Could you please elaborate? Thanks.

In my precedent studies, I've concluded than when someone tries to "lower" someone else, it is always to "go-up" himself in a social scale.

Could you please elaborate what exactly these studies were about? If your studies did concern pinpointing buffers, programs, and everything else pertaining to the Work, it may be beneficial for us to learn about your studies in detail, osit.

 

[mudrabbit]

It may be the language barrier, and it may not be. I don't know. But the answers we are getting from Jsf and blackangel seem haughty and full of self importance.

This is my opinion, of course.

I believe that I stated CLEARLY to Jsf that this was not an attack, that the questions posed were real questions and that I was looking for some understanding. Both Jsf and his friend, blackangel seem to be defensive and haughty with their answers. And the only reason it has gone on for seven pages is because they are both resisting giving any answers. This is just my impression.

As for the "pissing" analogy, this is (IMHO) rude, crude and downright disrespectful. Would you say that to your Grandma? I wonder how BA would expect people (adult people) to react to him in a face to face discussion while using those analogies.

Peg


haughty:
Main Entry: haugh·ty
Pronunciation: 'ho-tE, 'hä-
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): haugh·ti·er; -est
Etymology: obsolete haught, from Middle English haute, from Anglo-French halt, haut, literally, high, from Latin altus -- more at OLD
: blatantly and disdainfully proud
synonym see PROUD
- haugh·ti·ly /'ho-t&-lE, 'hä-/ adverb
- haugh·ti·ness /'ho-tE-n&s, 'hä-/ noun

disdain:
Main Entry: 1dis·dain
Pronunciation: dis-'dAn
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English desdeyne, from Anglo-French desdaign, from desdeigner
: a feeling of contempt for someone or something regarded as unworthy or inferior : SCORN

Main Entry: 2disdain
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: Middle English desdeynen, from Anglo-French desdeigner, dedeigner, from Vulgar Latin *disdignare, from Latin dis- + dignare to deign -- more at DEIGN
1 : to look on with scorn <disdained him as a coward>
2 : to refuse or abstain from because of disdain <disdained to answer their questions>
3 : to treat as beneath one's notice or dignity
synonym see DESPISE

 

[outcydr]

and so it goes

so far in this thread we have seen a language barrier; the misunderstandings, fears, apprehensions, frustration it can evoke in us. can we equate this with the Topic of the thread as originally presented. i think we can.

from _http://www.pep-web.org/document.php?id=ijp.083.0383a

...to illustrate that schizophrenics speak a meaningful language that is syntactically and morphologically similar to ordinary language, but is qualitatively different in terms of semantics and pragmatics. From a semantic perspective the ordinary distinctions between words, things, body states and actions are absent, creating words and sentences that are not representational or symbolic. It is a language of equivalence, immediacy and action as contrasted with a language of self-awareness, thoughtfulness, reflection and communication. From a pragmatic standpoint, because the language of schizophrenia makes no distinction between mind and world, it enables and supports delusional thinking. In order for the psychoanalyst to comprehend what the patient means, and couch interpretations in such a way as to convey the meaning he/she intends, analyst and patient must become aware of their inability to comprehend one another's languages and find a way to bridge the communication barrier.

It is a language of equivalence, immediacy and action as contrasted with a language of self-awareness, thoughtfulness, reflection and communication.

from _http://www.schizophrenia-help.com/schizophrenia__tracey.htm

Throughout my illness I did not know that I was terribly sick or that the cause of my Schizophrenia was repetitive sexual abuse. How could I because once the condition develops all memories of the cause are erased. In my experience with Schizophrenia a new world of delusions were created in order to survive. Not only did I need to survive I needed to divert my attention by creating a different language. I took what I learned in my environment and distorted it, putting a bunch of words together to further myself from the reality of the present situation. You must remember that the person with this condition will do anything to avoid confronting the cause, it also becomes a defence mechanism. Schizophrenia is an automatic response, it has it’s logic. If a so called normal person was to be physically violated Schizophrenia would not develop, it has to be a series of disturbing events. Other disorders are present before the onset of Schizophrenia. What happens is when an individual doesn’t deal with situations before the onset of Schizophrenia it becomes a build up and it might take one last incident to cause a major disturbance to the psyche. It is that simple.

this is a fairly long article but well worth reading. HeyMrYoshu?

also from the article:

THE SCHIZOPHRENIC LANGUAGE

Examples:

1. Covering up the secret of the lies, hiding in cover, I’m a undercover detective from Bakes-Ville. Using white lies to cover up the black lies things become complicated. When asked questions concerning my family I become tight lipped. Shutting my mouth with invisible tooth picks I pretend to be a rotten piece of meat. Nobody knows me as far as anybody is concerned I could be a Russian Spy. One short answer brief and to the point, hinting for everyone to back off. The fear of closeness stiffens my posture and within minutes I’m quick to get away.

6. If anyone tries to detect me I’ll hide behind a clown’s mask and pretend to be real. The danger of being found persists to scare me. Becoming so absorbed in new disguises I forget to remember I am made of pain. The genesis of mental illness is my middle name and the devil certainly does own my soul. Under the moon personality disorders surface on windmills over a spring of fresh water.The genuine feeling of sadness and fear are there toppled with candy coating and sugar bears.

so i think maybe we can begin to see something.

 

[domi]

... since I don't master english

Are you kidding me?
It seems to me your english seems poor in certain situations.
Maybe you are running a program you're not aware of?

 

[mudrabbit]

This would ask a very long answer and it would be very difficult for me to explain it in english we the right words. When all my informations would be put together and published, I will be able to speak about every details. For the moment, the 'group' has the same purpose that other '4th way' groups.

And who's work are you going to publish? Laura's? This forum's?

 

[Adaryn]

Btw, your pissing analogy is not innocent, and says quite a bit about you, imo.

This question of yours is also a manipulative 'straw man' argument that says much more about you than it does the topic at hand.

I think I've made this analogy to intensify my impression, to make you understanding how I feel about the Feather message. I don't think it was a "manipulative argument".

Yes it was manipulative. The goal was to ridicule what someone (myself in this particular case) said, to avoid having to focus on the content of the statement. And it was disrespectful. Good if you realise it, however how will that realisation affect your next interactions in the future ?

No one here ever says 'gurdjieff said that so that is that' - is this what occurs on your 'opus network'? That is a rather dogmatic way to go about things if so. If it is your understanding that this is what occurs here, then, once again, you are greatly lacking in understanding about this forum and it's associated web pages.

Okay. Obviously, it doesn't happens on opus network, but the message of feather gave me this impression.

How so ? What i wrote in that other message, I can see it in myself everytime, I didn't write it because "G said that, so it's the absolute truth". Sure it helps to have someone say it in a clear and better way than I could. There are things G. said I don't quite get at the moment, I don't talk about it, I only try to talk about the things I understood (add : or think I understood) and could experience on myself.