Schizophrenia, The Work, etc

[anart]

Actually, mudrabbit, jsf said that the video was to prove they were not the same person - not to prove they were not room mates. Also, the IP address wasn't similar, it was the same because they were all at the same location having a meeting and logged in from there under different user names, and then didn't log out before writing under each other's user names. That much is clear.

As I see it now, the only issue here is jsf's general contempt for being held accountable for the things he says and does. It is not Henry's choice that you are responsible for all you do, including what you write here and elsewhere - you are simply responsible - period. To not understand this or to argue about it indicates a rather startling lack of personal and esoteric understanding.

jsf - it is not a language issue that is causing this little discussion. It is, in fact, a discussion that has been repeated again and again - on the French forum as well. You have participated on the French forum and have come up against similar issues with the way you interact. There seems to be quite a high level of self-importance in your posts, and an almost non-existent self-doubt or self-examination. Yet, you do not see this - and you have started a group of your own with which you can propagate your understanding of things - yet - your behavior indicates that your personal understanding is lacking.

The questions I posed above, which you have not answered, are basically concerning this very thing - how can you lead a group when your own personal and esoteric self-understanding is evidently lacking? Does this concern you at all and if it does not, then why does it not.

These are simple, yet critical questions that you can either answer or ignore - it matters not to this forum, really, but it may matter very, very much to those you have gathered together under your own small 'teaching'. fwiw.

 

[mudrabbit]

Actually, mudrabbit, jsf said that the video was to prove they were not the same person - not to prove they were not room mates. Also, the IP address wasn't similar, it was the same because they were all at the same location having a meeting and logged in from there under different user names, and then didn't log out before writing under each other's user names. That much is clear.

That I understood later, but the timing was weird so I was having a bit of trouble understanding why it got grouped together.

From here, it appeared that he was using the video to explain both. But the video still came before the questions.

Peg

 

[Tigersoap]

There is something I don't quite get with you JSF,

Why would you want to create another website, in french, to discuss exactly the same things and basically copy/paste the whole idea of this forum and the SOTT over yours (news of tomorrow + opus) ?
I can see why you did it , because French speaking persons don't always understand english but even so

Still on your forum, most of the posts in many sections are yours only, just little excerpts taken from books, C's articles and so on.
I supposed you have noticed that you don't get many answers on these posts, except your own.
I think you're not helping SOTT or Laura by doing this but I may be not qualified to pass such a judgment on you, I agree.
I am sorry but from my side this look a bit like an ego-trip.

 

[Jsf]

You still have not explained WHY you thought it was mean, just that you thought it was mean.

Oh, ok, I've just search for the exact definition and now I understand why there is nothing mean.

That still tells us nothing ABOUT the group. What do you study in the group? What conclusions have you come to? Will you compare your findings with ours so we all can get a more rounded view? What is the progress you've made with said group, and what experiences show that you are on the right track, as far as the information goes? Is your group colinear with this one? What do you discuss?

This would ask a very long answer and it would be very difficult for me to explain it in english we the right words. When all my informations would be put together and published, I will be able to speak about every details. For the moment, the 'group' has the same purpose that other '4th way' groups.

As you can see from other posts (see Esoquest) this is an important function of disseminating knowledge. If we don't clarify and break it down, how can we hope to help others? How can we hope to understand it ourselves?

It's premature for me to talk about my 'model' and, for that reason, I keep silent until everything will be ready.

As I see it now, the only issue here is jsf's general contempt for being held accountable for the things he says and does.

So, write the list of everything I should be responsible of, and I would repeat it day & nigth until I get your pardon :)

These are simple, yet critical questions that you can either answer or ignore

I will answer anything to your apriorisms - are you trying to cure my "high level of self-importance" ? Prove me that what you say is right, without the help of other members of SOTT. I don't have problems to considerate people correctly, and I didn't try to considerate you because I know very little of you, if I note that you are much more advanded than me, I would considerate you as much more advanced, as I do for some people who I know very well their value. I can do that, yes ! No ego-trip as you could think.
To considerate people or their actions, don't you think this would need some much deeper discussions ? To see all the implications and thoughts and circomstances that are behind a action ?
Can you prove me your general level of understanding of the esoteric teachings ? See ? I've nothing to prove, and search any sort of 'support' either.

Why would you want to create another website, in french, to discuss exactly the same things and basically copy/paste the whole idea of this forum and the SOTT over yours (news of tomorrow + opus) ?

This forum existed before I knew about SOTT - I've just adapted it when we created newsoftomorrow. And there was no translation of SOTT subjects (meteores, ufos, desinfo, ...) in french ("I can see why you did it , because French speaking persons don't always understand english but even so "). That's one reason. Also, we are independent. Furthermore, maintain this site permits me to keep a good eye on the news.

I supposed you have noticed that you don't get many answers on these posts, except your own.
I think you're not helping SOTT or Laura by doing this but I may be not qualified to pass such a judgment on you, I agree.

Before, the forum had not newsoftomorrow. It's not highly crowded, and... ? Is this an argument to devalue everything ?

 

[stardust]

jsf - it is not a language issue that is causing this little discussion. It is, in fact, a discussion that has been repeated again and again - on the French forum as well. You have participated on the French forum and have come up against similar issues with the way you interact. There seems to be quite a high level of self-importance in your posts, and an almost non-existent self-doubt or self-examination. Yet, you do not see this - and you have started a group of your own with which you can propagate your understanding of things - yet - your behavior indicates that your personal understanding is lacking.

It is clear that we have some issues with Jsf on the French forum, notably when, after a long thread about the danger of personal e-mail, he send one to one of our administrator asking if he got a msn adress. He send me exactly the same in the beginning of my participation on this forum.
Our administrator ask him the reason of his message : no answer ...

So, as far as I'm concerned, I really would like to understand this kind of behaviour and what is your purpose, jsf, with these requests of our msn adress !

 

[anart]

I will answer anything to your apriorisms - are you trying to cure my "high level of self-importance" ? Prove me that what you say is right, without the help of other members of SOTT. Don't you think this would need some much deeper discussions ? Can you prove me your general level of understanding of the esoteric teachings ? See ? I've nothing to prove, and search any sort of 'support' either.

You have proven one thing very clearly - that you truly, deeply, do not understand anything at all. This is your choice - dreaming that you are a magician or a teacher is your choice but it does not make you anything other than a donkey on a treadmill, dreaming he is 'gifted', dreaming that he is a 'teacher' - and by these dreams and with this self-importance, blindly leading the blind.

Ignorance can be cured with Work; with true learning; with monumental effort, but first a breakdown of the crystallization of your own 'dreams of grandeur', your own 'gifted self-importance', must occur and this will take the kind of effort that you do not even begin to grasp at this point.

That is alright. It is your choice, and with enough effort on your part, it may change, though at this point in time I think that is unlikely - simply because for you to learn, you will have to let go of this elevated sense of self - you will have to truly understand that you are not 'gifted', nor were you a 'gifted child', you are not special - you are not a teacher - you are a machine, a donkey on a treadmill - and something tells me that you will fight to the death to hold on to these dreams of yourself. We'll see.

 

[mudrabbit]

Well, still evasion.
No direct answers to direct questions.

Geesh, if I asked a "teacher" to explain something, I would think they would attempt to do so. I don't think a "teacher" would remain vague.

And considering that you are gathering information here for use in your own forum, I don't think it fair that you do not discuss it here. I see no external consideration here.

My opinion, of course.

 

[j0da]

Jsf and HeyMrYoshu - coming back to this video of yours - "Esoteric Work" - is this how you understand The Work?

I may be old-fashioned but seeing what you do with books doesn't seem like much fun for me. Although I do not treat books as some holy idols, I think they deserve some respect. More so, when ideas and concepts they contain are so complicated that it takes hard work to understand them. Have you mastered esoteric knowledge to the degree that you perceive those books as mere toys? It boggles my mind folks..Or should I rather say - KIDS?

 

[Jsf]

It is clear that we have some issues with Jsf on the French forum, notably when, after a long thread about the danger of personal e-mail, he send one to one of our administrator asking if he got a msn adress. He send me exactly the same in the beginning of my participation on this forum.
Our administrator ask him the reason of his message : no answer ...

So, as far as I'm concerned, I really would like to understand this kind of behaviour and what is your purpose, jsf, with these requests of our msn adress !

I answered to this message ! I said that I could put a link on the page of newsoftomorrow, and asked for permission. But I never had an answer.

Ignorance can be cured with Work; with true learning; with monumental effort, but first a breakdown of the crystallization of your own 'dreams of grandeur', your own 'gifted self-importance',

That is if I had such "dreams of grandeur", but I maintain any of them. I do what I must do. At this stage of certainty, because you will not be convinced anyway, what can I do ? Nothing.

And considering that you are gathering information here for use in your own forum, I don't think it fair that you do not discuss it here.

We should not discuss of your informations anywhere ? Don't we have the right ?

Jsf and HeyMrYoshu - coming back to this video of yours - "Esoteric Work" - is this how you understand The Work?

Can you make the difference between fun and seriousness ? HMY, and mat just arrived at my place at that time, so, everybody had put their books on the table. That's all. Don't worry, we find plenty of other things to do that 'domino's. It has nothing to do with "respecting" the books and knownledge and the work of the authors.

 

[stardust]

I answered to this message ! I said that I could put a link on the page of newsoftomorrow, and asked for permission. But I never had an answer.

??? you send your message on 07-21-07. On 08-07-09, our administrator said he still hadn't your answer.

Assuming that there were a bug somewhere and he never received your answer... it not explains why you ask a personnal msn adress for this ? When you ask me the same thing in the beginning of the year , it was not for ask me 'to put a link' somewhere, wasn't it?

So your answer is :

Well, still evasion

 

[Jsf]

it not explains why you ask a personnal msn adress for this ? When you ask me the same thing in the beginning of the year , it was not for ask me 'to put a link' somewhere, wasn't it?

Nop. Because you where french. I ask him msn since 1/ I always prefer msn than mail, 2/ just for a link, msn is more practical. Where evasion ?

 

[CarpeDiem]

I don't have problems to considerate people correctly, and I didn't try to considerate you because I know very little of you, if I note that you are much more advanded than me, I would considerate you as much more advanced, as I do for some people who I know very well their value. I can do that, yes ! No ego-trip as you could think.
To considerate people or their actions, don't you think this would need some much deeper discussions ? To see all the implications and thoughts and circomstances that are behind a action ?
Can you prove me your general level of understanding of the esoteric teachings ? See ? I've nothing to prove, and search any sort of 'support' either.

My one cent here: Jsf, i don't think the issue at hand discussed here is to devaluate your konwledge in relation to 'more advanced' as you wrote knowledge of mods here; it distills in my perception
not to question of different levels of knowledge / awareness we have now, but it distills into being sincere, openess, transparency of intentions in communicating via network where you really don't know personally anybody, and have only written words and some instinct to infer what might be driving emotions / intent which the person on the other side of the cable casts into words. If we are sincere with yourselves and others in communicating, and some questions arise, and not by one person here, for the sake of personal growth of everybody here and the group it's better to look directly eyes into eyes into the face of these questions. That's not to say that you or anybody likely is insincere, but to stress the importance to face 'without a shield' questions that may arise at any given moment to anybody here.

 

[Beau]

And considering that you are gathering information here for use in your own forum, I don't think it fair that you do not discuss it here.

We should not discuss of your informations anywhere ? Don't we have the right ?

Re-read what you quoted. No one said that you should not discuss what is discussed here, elsewhere. The phrase is "I don't think it's fair you do not discuss it here". Big difference. If you misunderstand because of language difficulties, then you should not react the way you do. You should ask "Is this how I am perceiving what you wrote?" and then form your question. But you do not. You are quick to let your emotions take control. That's why other members are telling you that you do not externally consider and that you identify, with many things. This is where your subjectivity regarding 4th Way comes into play. If you were really doing The Work, your answers to other's questions would show this.

 

[Beau]

it not explains why you ask a personnal msn adress for this ? When you ask me the same thing in the beginning of the year , it was not for ask me 'to put a link' somewhere, wasn't it?

Nop. Because you where french. I ask him msn since 1/ I always prefer msn than mail, 2/ just for a link, msn is more practical. Where evasion ?

But, what do others prefer? What is practical for them? See, you do not consider these possibilities. You only consider yourself.

From ISOTM:

"The opposite of internal considering and what is in part a means of
fighting against it is external considering. External considering is based
upon an entirely different relationship towards people than internal
considering. It is adaptation towards people, to their understanding, to
their requirements. By considering externally a man does that which makes
life easy for other people and for himself.

External considering requires a knowledge of men, an understanding of their
tastes, habits, and prejudices.

At the same time external considering requires a great power over oneself, a
great control over oneself.

Very often a man desires sincerely to express or somehow or other show to
another man what he really thinks of him or feels about him. And if he is a
weak man he will of course give way to this desire and afterwards justify
himself and say that he did not want to lie, did not want to pretend, he
wanted to be sincere. Then he convinces himself that it was the other man's
fault. He really wanted to consider him, even to give way to him, not to
quarrel, and so on. But the other man did not at all want to consider him so
that nothing could be done with him.

It very often happens that a man begins with a blessing and ends with a
curse. He begins by deciding not to consider and afterwards blames other
people for not considering him. This is an example of how external
considering passes into internal considering.

But if a man really remembers himself he understands that another man is a
machine just as he is himself. And then he will enter into his position, he
will put himself in his place, and he will be really able to understand and
feel what another man thinks and feels. If he can do this his work becomes
easier for him. But if he approaches a man with his own requirements nothing
except new internal considering can ever be obtained from it.

"Right external considering is very important in the work. It often happens
that people who understand very well the necessity of external considering
in life do not understand the necessity of external considering in the work;
they decide that just because they are in the work they have the right not
to consider. Whereas in reality, in the work, that is, for a man's own
successful work, ten times more external considering is necessary than in
life, because only external considering on his part shows his valuation of
the work and his understanding of the work; and success in the work is
always proportional to the valuation and understanding of it.

Remember that work cannot begin and cannot proceed on a level lower than
that of the obyvatel,1 that is, on a level lower than ordinary life. This is
a very important principle which, for some reason or other, is very easily
forgotten.

 

[anart]

But, what do others prefer? What is practical for them? See, you do not consider these possibilities. You only consider yourself.

This is a good point. You see, Jsf, you seem to be under the impression that the only way anyone here would ever know how well you understand esoteric concepts, or how 'advanced' and worthy of 'teaching' you are, is to have a long, in-depth discussion with you so you could 'prove' it. The fact of the matter is that your depth of understanding is evidenced in 'who' you are, how you behave, the words you use, the way you use them.

Every thought you have, every word you use, every action you take or refrain from taking is clear evidence of your depth of esoteric understanding.

How you interact on this and the French forum is very telling; no long, deep discussion is necessary.