Self Importance vs. Self Preservation?

[Wunjo]

Hello RyanX
Yes, it is an odd, situation/ experience, one that logically speaking, I would tend to agree with you that it is two imperfect mirrors reflecting chaos back and forth. Any attempt to look at it and say that it is an exception to the logic would appear to be wishful thinking; I attempt to be on guard to the best of my ability. One thing I’ve learned as cliché as it may sound, but which has given me some profound help in situations is, “When you are wrong, you still believe you are right.” So at this moment I am willing to work to the best I can that I am wrong. It is also how I’ve managed to forge some ground with a partner style situation. Being ready to be wrong is actually very helpful.

Dealing with a 2 person partner style situation takes a lot of slow careful bandage pulling. The best I can do is run through a generic scenario. Both partners have agreed before hand to point out mechanical behavior. Let’s say for example one person notices that the other has a habit of doing something perceived as negative. The first thing that the informing partner has to be aware of is whether or not he is noticing objectively or whether there is personality attachment to the other’s behavior. If there is a personality attachment then it is usually beneficial to state this up front. “I am having a personality attachment to this behavior that I notice from you”. From this point if both partners stay awake then they can choose to pick which aspect to discuss. One partners behavior, or another’s attachment to that behavior. Being upfront with the personality attachment that one has to the other, usually helps to detach on or both from the situation. From there, its questions and answers. “Which aspect, where, how, is this real? etc.” Over and over. It usually is a very tedious process, often going over something again and again.

And the important point is that at every question, at every answer, there is the opportunity for identification and attachment. Each one has to be looked at and questioned, over and over. Every attachment to an attachment to an attachment must be acknowledged and worked with. This often leads in circles that have to be traced. And when we get sick and tired of the discussion we have to ask why again, realize self importance is rearing its head.

It is an imperfect process for sure, but we are making progress. I would say that we are lucky as well, lucky in the way that 90% of the time, when one person goes into an emotional identification it usually sobers the other one up quite a bit, allowing the process to continue. Sometimes as I mentioned earlier it’s not the case. Both go to sleep if the proper triggers are hit at the same time. But we take notes and come back and discuss and ask the questions over and over. It’s definitely ad-hoc and shooting from the hip, but we have both noticed significant changes over the course of the last 3 years. And then, I’d never know if I was wrong, unless somebody shows me. I am definetely trying to branch out into the Forum a bit.

Thank You

 

[anart]

Hello RyanX
Yes, it is an odd, situation/ experience, one that logically speaking, I would tend to agree with you that it is two imperfect mirrors reflecting chaos back and forth. Any attempt to look at it and say that it is an exception to the logic would appear to be wishful thinking; I attempt to be on guard to the best of my ability. One thing I’ve learned as cliché as it may sound, but which has given me some profound help in situations is, “When you are wrong, you still believe you are right.” So at this moment I am willing to work to the best I can that I am wrong. It is also how I’ve managed to forge some ground with a partner style situation. Being ready to be wrong is actually very helpful.

Dealing with a 2 person partner style situation takes a lot of slow careful bandage pulling. The best I can do is run through a generic scenario. Both partners have agreed before hand to point out mechanical behavior. Let’s say for example one person notices that the other has a habit of doing something perceived as negative. The first thing that the informing partner has to be aware of is whether or not he is noticing objectively or whether there is personality attachment to the other’s behavior. If there is a personality attachment then it is usually beneficial to state this up front. “I am having a personality attachment to this behavior that I notice from you”. From this point if both partners stay awake then they can choose to pick which aspect to discuss. One partners behavior, or another’s attachment to that behavior. Being upfront with the personality attachment that one has to the other, usually helps to detach on or both from the situation. From there, its questions and answers. “Which aspect, where, how, is this real? etc.” Over and over. It usually is a very tedious process, often going over something again and again.

And the important point is that at every question, at every answer, there is the opportunity for identification and attachment. Each one has to be looked at and questioned, over and over. Every attachment to an attachment to an attachment must be acknowledged and worked with. This often leads in circles that have to be traced. And when we get sick and tired of the discussion we have to ask why again, realize self importance is rearing its head.

It is an imperfect process for sure, but we are making progress. I would say that we are lucky as well, lucky in the way that 90% of the time, when one person goes into an emotional identification it usually sobers the other one up quite a bit, allowing the process to continue. Sometimes as I mentioned earlier it’s not the case. Both go to sleep if the proper triggers are hit at the same time. But we take notes and come back and discuss and ask the questions over and over. It’s definitely ad-hoc and shooting from the hip, but we have both noticed significant changes over the course of the last 3 years. And then, I’d never know if I was wrong, unless somebody shows me. I am definetely trying to branch out into the Forum a bit.

Thank You

The real problem with this is that it almost always turns into a negative feedback loop - since neither of you can think about the way you think with the way you think. It would take quite a high level of personal development in the Work to be able to navigate the emotional and subjective traps of such a situation and not do harm and increase subjectivity.

I think, quite often, 'work concepts' are used against each person in such situations, instead of being used to the benefit of anyone, merely because to think that one can navigate such a thing in an intimate relationship without external guidance or help indicates a level of subjectivity and blindness about the process that ensures failure and, possibly, harm. In other words, I would advise that both of you begin to actively network on the forum with people who do have the ability to navigate such things so that you might each (and both together) have a chance of making progress. Anything else is likely both of you dreaming that you're awake. Helping a person to awaken is a very delicate process - when you combine the emotional triggers that are inherent in intimate relationships, it's pretty much a minefield that requires outside guidance from one who has already made it through that minefield. fwiw.

 

[Bar Kochba]

To echo Anart, it is difficult and nearly next to impossible to work alone, let alone work with a close partner with no "teacher" around to provide objectivity to the situation. Gurdjieff said as much. Indeed, it is possible that great harm could be done in such a predicament.

 

[Wunjo]

I can see what you mean, and I understand as we have both experienced aspects you mention. I would like to start networking more on the forum but I am not sure how to really begin actively networking. What would be the first step so to speak? As far as the Work my partner and I engage in, while I can see the inherent dangers, the benefits of working face to face with someone everyday are just too great to dismiss. I would be very open to any thoughts or suggestions regarding directions and pitfalls to be wary of. I can definitely see how dreaming you are awake is always a threat. Any guidance you could offer would be welcome.
Thanks!

 

[Mountain Crown]

Any guidance you could offer would be welcome

Hi Wunjo,

Knowing thoroughly the concepts External Consideration and Internal Consideration would be my suggestion. Relationships and the Work is clearer with this knowledge, and I think you'll see mirroring in an entirely different light.

I can testify to it as my wife and I are both in the Work.

 

[Wunjo]

Hello Jerry,
External vs Internal considering is one of the concepts my wife and I have been working on. It's a good example of not understanding what the work could/ does mean, and could very well be one of the pitfalls of lack of understanding that may be being alluded to. We have discussed it at length and any input you could share would be helpful. We've been reading and discussing the Commentaries by Nicol. So far the best I have really been able to come up with is that External considering is a form of empathy. Getting inside someone to the best of one's ability and see reality and logic from their standpoint, and feel the emotions that they would feel. And then seeing me sitting across the couch from someone, saying what I say but filtering it through their filters to get a different light on oneself. What kinds of perspectives do you have on that subject? It has helped release attachment in many circumstances and see the world in a less right/vs wrong manner, for us. Is this a proper direction?

 

[Mountain Crown]

Getting inside someone to the best of one's ability

Hi Wunjo,

It’s my understanding that External Consideration is the freedom to act in anyway chosen while taking into account the feelings and interests of the world around you. This is possible only with internal objectivity stemming from the loss of identifications. It’s the ability to act independently from what we experience internally. We can act in the interest of another person because of not being bound to our own internal consideration.

[quote author=Gurdjieff's Views from the Real World] "We have two lives, inner and outer life, and so we also have two kinds of considering. We constantly consider.

"When she looks at me, I feel inside a dislike of her, I am cross with her, but externally I am polite because I must be very polite since I need her. Internally I am what I am, but externally I am different. This is external considering. Now she says that I am a fool. This angers me. The fact that I am angered is the result, but what takes place in me is internal considering.

"This internal and external considering are different. We must learn to be able to control separately both kinds of considering: the internal and the external. We want to change not only inside but also outside.

"Yesterday, when she gave me an unfriendly look, I was cross. But today I understand that perhaps the reason why she looked at me like that is that she is a fool; or perhaps she had learned or heard something about me. And today I want to remain calm. She is a slave and I should not be angry with her inwardly. From today onward I want to be calm inside.

"Outwardly I want today to be polite, but if necessary I can appear angry. Outwardly it must be what is best for her and for me. I must consider. Internal and external considering must be different. In an ordinary man the external attitude is the result of the internal. If she is polite, I am also polite. But these attitudes should be separated."[/quote]

Care is in order not to presume so quickly the ability to determine what in another is true or false, nor that what we say is even being interpreted according to what we mean, these assessments can be a perception of our own machines, downloaded with subtle ponerological twistings,nuances, and narcissistic wiseacrings.

The difficulty in “stepping into another’s shoes” is that the false personality may have its own motives for making the attempt, resulting in transference.

[quote author=Cassiopaedia entry for External Consideration] The predator of internal considering may well claim to engage in merciless self-observation, to aspire to consciousness and being and any other virtues and even trick itself to believe it is progressing towards these goals while all the while only feeding its vanity and desire for recognition.[/quote]

[quote author=Gurdjieff's Views from the Real World] "We must cease reacting inside. If someone is rude, we must not react inside. Whoever manages to do this will be more free. It is very difficult.

"Inside us we have a horse; it obeys orders from outside. And our mind is too weak to do anything inside. Even if the mind gives the order to stop, nothing will stop inside.

"We educate nothing but our mind. We know how to behave with such and such. "Goodbye" "How do you do?" But it is only the driver who knows this. Sitting on his box he has read about it. But the horse has no education whatever. It has not even been taught the alphabet, it knows no languages, it never went to school. The horse was also capable of being taught, but we forgot all about it. . . . And so it grew up a neglected orphan. It only knows two words: right and left.

"What I said about inner change refers only to the need of change in the horse. If the horse changes, we can change even externally. If the horse does not change, everything will remain the same, no matter how long we study.

"It is easy to decide to change sitting quietly in your room. But as soon as you meet someone, the horse kicks. Inside us we have a horse.
The horse much change.[/quote]

There are times in all marriages when boundaries must be tactfully established, and it may involve mirroring. As long as it’s done without blurring the lines between internal and external considering, and the aim is emotional development rather than intellectual aggrandizement, the risks can be minimized. Only however, when both parties are vigilant in remembering that one can’t do other people’s Work for them.

Other forumites may have better insights to offer.

 

[anart]

I can see what you mean, and I understand as we have both experienced aspects you mention. I would like to start networking more on the forum but I am not sure how to really begin actively networking. What would be the first step so to speak? As far as the Work my partner and I engage in, while I can see the inherent dangers, the benefits of working face to face with someone everyday are just too great to dismiss. I would be very open to any thoughts or suggestions regarding directions and pitfalls to be wary of. I can definitely see how dreaming you are awake is always a threat. Any guidance you could offer would be welcome.
Thanks!

Is your partner on the forum? If not, it will likely not be possible to openly and honestly network here. Without a network, you and your partner are attempting to do alone what cannot be done alone. This doesn't mean you can't help each other communicate and such, and handle day to day issues, but when it comes to the specific topic of the Work, a network is crucial.

She/he can't be forced to be part of the forum, however - that will never work. It must be a natural part of their personal development to want to become involved - so it can be a very tricky situation since by merely introducing it, with the idea that they should be a part of it, all sorts of problems are created. So, the first question becomes, 'is your partner a member of the forum and, if they are, how did they find their way here?'

 

[Wunjo]

Hello Jerry,
I can see that my definition of the external considering was off. Could you expand upon it a little more? I want to understand and see if I understand. Currently it’s appearing to me to be a meatier version of G’s outwardly express no negativity guidelines. The main component that I see is the mindfulness aspect. Being mindful of the differences in your inner considering vs. external considering seems to be the point. I can see ones internal considering being expressed outwardly when a very large emotional event occurs. Otherwise, it seems odd as most people don’t actually express the inner feelings outwardly and external considering seems to be the rule and not the exception, minus the awareness aspect, of course. Is this external aspect possibly antiquated, when people perhaps outwardly expressed all sort of judgments they felt inside? Or is there a more subtle meaning? Most people behave themselves at the dinner table and refrain from insulting their hosts or guests, when they disagree. So it seems as if the noticing of the internal vs. external is the actual point, and this will eventually lead us to the second part of noticing the internal on its own.

It took me a while to get the horse analogy and maybe that’s because it is not complete within the quote, the process is missing? Maybe that’s why it seems confusing to me. Or maybe I am resisting.
I’ve read it many times that you can’t do the Work for someone. While it appears to be self evident, perhaps I am missing something here too. What kinds of things are we allowed to help with? Are we able to point out mechanical behavior? Is that a violation of free will? Only they can overcome it, but must they discover it as well, each individual case?

I really appreciate the reminders of keeping mindful of the layers of personality that can trick us into thinking they are gone. It is easy to get complacent and not even know it.

 

[Wunjo]

Hello Anart,
No my partner is not part of the forum; she reads it occasionally, though. You mentioned being unable to network due to this fact. Could you help me out with why? Are there aspects that you know that can’t be understood without specific teaching? I’ve seen you dialogue and point out many things to people that they weren’t aware of, even so subtly as noticing aggressive underlying comments in their wording. I have no doubt that you can see and direct. My question is: Can others do the same thing? I realize that within the network there are people far more knowledgeable regarding the Work than myself and far more of them as well, and it provides what I would call a sterile environment where whatever emotional attachments I might have to whatever you might point out about my machine will not trigger likewise reactions within forumites who are teaching, and the focus stays on number 1.

I admit what we work in is not a sterile environment, my partner and I. A comment about a partner’s mechanical behavior can be objective as well as emotionally subjective. However, the person receiving this information must, deal with it in the same manner. Be objective themselves, about whatever is being presented to them. And if this is not the case and the partner cannot remain objective and becomes attached to either the observation or the subjective manner in which it was delivered, then the result is the same. The result is the same, meaning that the person must now be objective about the fact they are having a subjective emotional attachment. And in the end the person who “noticed” mechanical behavior must go through the same process, the” why’s, and how’s and who’s.” If two people are working on the Work, then there is a commitment to this. It becomes very obvious to both partners when this commitment is not being observed. At some point this will bring the partner(s) back.

At least that’s how we’ve been working with it. Yes it can be sloppy, and messy, but it also has exposed both us to many more opportunities to deal with Work related issues, or so we believe.

I realize that I may just be justifying here, an ego response to fight for yet a new way of coping with reality I now find myself in. I realize that there could be walls upon walls of delusion speaking here. Perhaps whatever changes or realizations have been made are merely imagination. I have to ask myself this. So can we work together Myself and the Forum and at the same time my partner and I?

So, do you think it is possible or worth the Forum’s time to be involved with us or will it merely generate noise?

 

[kujo]

Wunjo, here is more information on the "horse" as a symbol of our emotional center. This is an except from In Search of the Miraculous. I find meditating on the ideas in this parable of particular use when attempting to understand many concepts with the Work. Hope this is of some help.

"Man is a complex organization," he said, "consisting of four parts which may be connected or unconnected, or badly connected. The carriage is connected with the horse by shafts, the horse is connected with the driver by reins, and the driver is connected with the master by the master's voice. But the driver must hear and understand the master's voice. He must know how to drive and the horse must be trained to obey the reins. As to the relation between the horse and the carriage, the horse must be properly harnessed. Thus there are three connections between the four sections of this complex organization. If something is lacking in one of the connections, the organization cannot act as a single whole. The connections are therefore no less important than the actual 'bodies' Working on himself man works simultaneously on the 'bodies' and the 'connections.' But it is different work.

"Work on oneself must begin with the driver. The driver is the mind. In order to be able to hear the master's voice, the driver, first of all, must not be asleep, that is, he must wake up. Then it may prove that the master speaks a language that the driver does not understand. The driver must learn this language. When he has learned it, he will understand the master. But concurrently with this he must learn to drive the horse, to harness it to the carriage, to feed and groom it, and to keep the carriage in order-because what would be the use of his understanding the master if he is not in a position to do anything? The master tells him to go yonder. But he is unable to move, because the horse has not been fed, it is not harnessed, and he does not know where the reins are. The horse is our emotions. The carriage is the body. The mind must learn to control the emotions. The emotions always pull the body after them. This is the order in which work on oneself must proceed. But observe again that work on the 'bodies,' that is, on the driver, the horse, and the carriage, is one thing. And work on the 'connections'-that is, on the 'driver's understanding,'which unites him to the master, on the 'reins,'which connect him with the horse, and on the 'shafts' and the 'harness,' which connect the horse with the carriage-is quite another thing.

 

[anart]

Hello Anart,
No my partner is not part of the forum; she reads it occasionally, though. You mentioned being unable to network due to this fact. Could you help me out with why?

How much Gurdjieff have you read?

I’ve seen you dialogue and point out many things to people that they weren’t aware of, even so subtly as noticing aggressive underlying comments in their wording. I have no doubt that you can see and direct. My question is: Can others do the same thing? I realize that within the network there are people far more knowledgeable regarding the Work than myself and far more of them as well, and it provides what I would call a sterile environment where whatever emotional attachments I might have to whatever you might point out about my machine will not trigger likewise reactions within forumites who are teaching, and the focus stays on number 1.

I admit what we work in is not a sterile environment, my partner and I. A comment about a partner’s mechanical behavior can be objective as well as emotionally subjective. However, the person receiving this information must, deal with it in the same manner. Be objective themselves, about whatever is being presented to them. And if this is not the case and the partner cannot remain objective and becomes attached to either the observation or the subjective manner in which it was delivered, then the result is the same. The result is the same, meaning that the person must now be objective about the fact they are having a subjective emotional attachment. And in the end the person who “noticed” mechanical behavior must go through the same process, the” why’s, and how’s and who’s.” If two people are working on the Work, then there is a commitment to this. It becomes very obvious to both partners when this commitment is not being observed. At some point this will bring the partner(s) back.

I think you're really confusing things. When the network, or I, point things out to people, we are not emotionally or intimately involved with those people - there is no feeding involved, or emotional expectations or any of those things that confuse things terribly when they enter into a mirroring situation.

I realize that I may just be justifying here, an ego response to fight for yet a new way of coping with reality I now find myself in. I realize that there could be walls upon walls of delusion speaking here. Perhaps whatever changes or realizations have been made are merely imagination. I have to ask myself this. So can we work together Myself and the Forum and at the same time my partner and I?

So, do you think it is possible or worth the Forum’s time to be involved with us or will it merely generate noise?

Yes, you appear to be justifying. I think the forum will, as always, help to the extent it can help. It's up to you and your partner (if she/he so chooses) to pay in advance in order to actually benefit. It is impossible for the two of you to not be engaged in feedback loops that are detrimental to objectivity. It really can be no other way - it's just the nature of things. I'm not saying that the two of you aren't benefiting each other in some way, you may be - I cannot know such a thing not knowing you. However, I can say that it sounds like the situation is insular and self-referencing merely by the definition of what it is and only so much can be accomplished in a closed system.

I also caution strongly against encouraging your partner to become involved in the forum - as I've mentioned before, this never works - one must come to this Work in their own way.

 

[Mountain Crown]

[quote author=Wunjo] The main component that I see is the mindfulness aspect. Being mindful of the differences in your inner considering vs. external considering seems to be the point.[/quote]

It’s important to keep in mind that people are completely machines prior to awakening. Self-remembering is only a first step in an awakening machine.

I can see ones internal considering being expressed outwardly when a very large emotional event occurs.

As far as I know, G attributed a far greater role to internal considering in what is expressed outwardly by a mechanical person. In fact, outward expression is completely determined by inner considering.

Most people behave themselves at the dinner table and refrain from insulting their hosts or guests, when they disagree.

This is an example of culturally learned behavior; it’s automatic and internally driven.

What kinds of things are we allowed to help with?

For me, it’s not a question of what’s allowed, but more what really can be done once brutally honest about being a machine.

I had the same question as anart about the extent of your reading of Gurdjieff. Also, it's not armchair reading, requiring care and the willingness to suffer.

 

[Aiming]

While reading your thread, Wunjo, a question popped up and I hope it's okay to chime in here and ask it.

I don't quite understand the concept of communication within a colinear relationship (colinear as in working on oneself). (I might be engaged in black and white thinking here.) I always thought that in such a relationship one would be completely open about one's feelings, thoughts, motivations, everything. (On reflecting on this notion, it seems to me now that if one shared everything, it could easily turn into a situation of subjective feeding?)

How does internal/external consideration fit in here? On the one hand one is being externally considerate -- on the other hand one doesn't internally consider. So what does one do with one's feelings/thoughts (about just anything), does one not share those with the other? Are there only specific things one shares with the other? Are things like selfish emotions being kept 'secret', as in: those are of the machine's automaticalness, but I do not want to live them, thus I merely note them and talk only about what's significant (whatever that would be).

I realize I might not be especially clear in my question here, but currently I don't know how else to formulate it -- my basic question is: I'd like to 'see' the concept of communication within a colinear relationship.

 

[Mountain Crown]

[quote author=Enaid]. . .one would be completely open about one's feelings, thoughts, motivations, everything[/quote]

To be overtly honest at all times about all feelings is to be weak.

it seems to me now that if one shared everything, it could easily turn into a situation of subjective feeding?)

With some observation you may find that yes, most of the time this romantic notion is in fact feeding, and isn't externally considerate.

How does internal/external consideration fit in here? On the one hand one is being externally considerate -- on the other hand one doesn't internally consider. So what does one do with one's feelings/thoughts (about just anything), does one not share those with the other? Are there only specific things one shares with the other? Are things like selfish emotions being kept 'secret', as in: those are of the machine's automaticalness, but I do not want to live them, thus I merely note them and talk only about what's significant (whatever that would be).

One way to look at it is that when one stops reacting then there is opportunity for external consideration. With external consideration there is more freedom to change our inner considerings, not that they stop.