Self Importance vs. Self Preservation?

[Wunjo]

Anart,
I've read ISOTM, it been a few years, and I've changed a bit since then and I'm due for a good reading of it. I guess I'd like to try and get to what would the process be, and how it would differ from where I currently am. You mentioned paying up front. I am curious as to how the process works through the medium of typed word. Logically, I do see the inherent fallibility within the collinear communication and the need for an outside observer. With just two people, it's like trying to analyze a ping pong match while in the match. An outside observer is needed to get true feedback and an objective one at that. I get what you are saying regarding this. I am just confused as how to proceed. This written format offers accountability but gets so overwhelming with the multiple responses, each one with the possibility of disagreement, misinterpretation, assumptions, and projections. And I believe the typed word does foster these levels of confusion. How are you to know my behaviors or mechanical aspect without either experiencing them or having me just relate in endless details of a days in my life?
Thanks!

 

[Wunjo]

Jerry,
For external behavior, am I correct in understanding that it’s not just external behavior, but as to the motivations of external behavior, the internal. The dinner party reference, a guest decides not to give a rude retort, not truly out of external consideration for the host but from internal consideration or the ramifications of that type of action. Is that what is meant by the internal guiding the external despite the fact that our internal desires don’t match with our external behaviors?

Your responses give me lots to think about and some good reminders in there, even if I am not responding to each one directly.

Thank You

 

[anart]

Anart,
I've read ISOTM, it been a few years, and I've changed a bit since then and I'm due for a good reading of it.

It's always good to read again - but it's just the tip of the iceberg. It wasn't even written by Gurdjieff.

The recommended reading section is a great resource - yes, it's a lot, but it's really invaluable if you want to get some idea of how to do this.

I guess I'd like to try and get to what would the process be, and how it would differ from where I currently am. You mentioned paying up front. I am curious as to how the process works through the medium of typed word.

Sincerity, honesty, transparency and trust. The same way it works face to face - it's usually even better with the written word because a LOT comes through the written word, without the distraction of interpersonal energy exchange that occurs face to face, if that makes any sense.

Logically, I do see the inherent fallibility within the collinear communication and the need for an outside observer. With just two people, it's like trying to analyze a ping pong match while in the match. An outside observer is needed to get true feedback and an objective one at that. I get what you are saying regarding this.

Exactly.

I am just confused as how to proceed. This written format offers accountability but gets so overwhelming with the multiple responses, each one with the possibility of disagreement, misinterpretation, assumptions, and projections.

So it requires attention, focus, clarity of thought and expression - it's Work.

And I believe the typed word does foster these levels of confusion. How are you to know my behaviors or mechanical aspect without either experiencing them or having me just relate in endless details of a days in my life?

As I mentioned previously, a LOT comes through the written word - more than most people ever even consider. This entire forum has been an experiment in understanding that, and this network has hit it out of the park every time when it comes to discerning underlying motivations, issues, programs, and potential. If often takes time, but it borders on miraculous what a colinear network of minds can discern when they work together. Sincerity, honesty, transparency and trust are the first ingredients - and getting up to speed on the basic material which is found in the recommended reading section. I hope this helps.

 

[Wunjo]

Hello Enaid
I don’t believe I can really speak on the topic of collinear communication right now. It seems as if there are some problems with the concept and I do not want to add noise by really expanding upon what I may not understand. At this point I would merely be relating ideas I believe because I believe them, not necessarily because I know. Sorry!

 

[go2]

Jerry,
For external behavior, am I correct in understanding that it’s not just external behavior, but as to the motivations of external behavior, the internal. The dinner party reference, a guest decides not to give a rude retort, not truly out of external consideration for the host but from internal consideration or the ramifications of that type of action. Is that what is meant by the internal guiding the external despite the fact that our internal desires don’t match with our external behaviors?

Your responses give me lots to think about and some good reminders in there, even if I am not responding to each one directly.

Thank You

The aim is inner freedom. The practice is to play the role of a good dinner guest, even while being identified with inner emotional commentary on the ignorance of the host. We must begin somewhere.

I practiced restraint this very morning by cheerfully greeting an individual that I would rather lecture on self-centered behavior. She is my petty tyrant. I am using her to train the horses, which don't speak the language of ISOTM, but they are learning to obey the driver who is doing the master's bidding.

Soon, I will have inner peace when the tyrant walks into the room. I get to practice every day. :)

 

[Wunjo]

Anart,
I will work on getting deeper into the suggested reading. I am very interested in to learn more about learning through individuals’ written word, understanding someone at a deeper level through their writing. Is this something I can do with my own writing? Is it something that I can look into or just something that comes with practice? Is there a system?

So I wish to continue addressing the Internal vs. External, self importance vs. self- preservation questions, and several comments throughout the discussion thus far. Should I ask them here, ask them somewhere else, or leave them alone since the topic seems to be brought back to working on the forum vs. working in a partnership? Should I come back when I’m better educated on subject matters, and then, when is a good time to enter back in as to keep noise levels to a minimum? How much knowledge should I have, mainly should I be as quick and organized with the “quotes” as many are here? I feel like I am starting over.

Thank You

 

[RyanX]

Anart,
I will work on getting deeper into the suggested reading. I am very interested in to learn more about learning through individuals’ written word, understanding someone at a deeper level through their writing. Is this something I can do with my own writing? Is it something that I can look into or just something that comes with practice? Is there a system?

Wunjo,

I'm not Anart, but I'll try and take a stab at your question. :)

I wouldn't say there's a system, it's just something that comes naturally after continuing the Work (which means posting and interacting on here and applying what you learn). If you keep a journal, it can be a fascinating experience looking back on what you've written like, say, over a year ago. You might start to identify programs or personality fragments (little I's) this way. For those of us who've been posting on this forum for years, the same can be applied to reading our past posts. It's not a comfortable experience, but it is usually an enlightening one. Over time you might see your own past mindset in certain people who post now. You'll see those same programs that you've battled and might be able to offer some tips.

So the best way to see what somebody is writing at a deeper level is to continue to Work on yourself and grow in Being. You'll also get more out of books through this process too, and might want to go back and re-read certain books just to gain new insights.

Anart will probably have some suggestions too. :)

 

[Aiming]

To be overtly honest at all times about all feelings is to be weak.
...
With some observation you may find that yes, most of the time this romantic notion is in fact feeding, and isn't externally considerate.
...
One way to look at it is that when one stops reacting then there is opportunity for external consideration. With external consideration there is more freedom to change our inner considerings, not that they stop.

Thank you for replying, Jerry.
Wunjo, there's no need to apologize, I'm glad someone answered and I've got some new food for thought now, which is all that's needed. :)