Self-Observation, Inner Talking & Work Instrument

Buddy

The Living Force
anart said:
Just to clarify a few things - the higher centers do not need you to work on them. They function perfectly as they are. If they exist in an individual (if that person has the seed of a soul) the higher centers are fully functioning - the crux is that the lower centers, due to their condition, cannot connect with the fully functioning higher centers, thus the higher centers cannot connect, inform and interact with the individual (not consciously, though there can be subconscious 'bleed through' to my understanding).

Also, the lower emotional center has two halves, the positive and the negative, so you can interact with and learn from positive emotions while sorting out your lower emotional center. In fact, I think, if that were not possible, no one would ever fuse their lower emotional center, since our existence would be nothing but pain.

anart, thank you very much for those comments. :)
 

Adobe

Jedi
FOTCM Member
Bud, yes this helps much, "holding below the neck" is just what I was looking for, and observing the emotion in its relationship between ego and or which of the little “I”s it is attached to will give me some work.

Thanks
 

Guardian

The Living Force
anart said:
This is an important exercise. Gurdjieff stated often that in order to transmute negative emotions ( to utilize their energy to ones benefit ) that these negative emotions must be kept 'below the neck'. In other words - do not act on them, do not speak on them, do not vent them on others. resulting in pain in others and temporary relief in the self. Hold them, below the neck, in an exercise of Will and self-observation in order to remove their control over you and to utilize that energy to burn away small parts of yourself that create the programmed negative emotions to begin with - hold the fire within. This can be very difficult to do, but it is, quite simply, holding the fire in the furnace to affect internal change - there is enormous power in this, especially if the negative emotion in question is one born of programmed reaction.

This is a really interesting thread. :)

Anart .. I'm not sure I understand this "below the neck" exercise. Is Gurdjieff essentially saying "Keep your mouth shut when you're really ticked off?"

I hear that a lot, and I'm not very good at it. I feel I do have excellent control of my emotions....to me, they are biochemical responses to my thoughts and I can change my immediate emotion by changing the thoughts that caused it, that's fairly easy....but it's temporary. Comes in handy, but I still have to deal with the root issue when I get in a safe space to do so.

The Kituwah issue is a good example. What Duke Energy is doing makes me ANGRY, very very ANGRY at core level....and I want it to! If what they are doing didn't make me angry...I'd be worried.

I'm taking that angry and using it to hurt Duke Energy financially as much as possible. What I (and others) are doing will result in a very large monetary loss for Duke Energy and its owners, and I want it too. I use the Fire they have raised in me to take away some of their "power" as THEY define it. I should probably also mention that I really enjoy doing so....makes me feel GREAT. :umm:

Same with a wide variety of physical, and occasionally financial, predators. To me, the anger these people generate in me is a tool...or maybe a fuel source, with which to stop them. I don't want to not be anger when I see people doing hurtful things things to others. Is that a bad thing?
 

Laura

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I don't think that it means to keep your mouth shut. But it does mean that if you open your mouth in that state, make it count and have it under YOUR control. There are times when speaking is the right thing to do. And there are times when it is not, and holding back is the correct, strategic thing to do.

The emotion issue goes hand in hand with external considering. External considering is doing what makes life easier for others AND yourself, and facilitates you getting to your goal or achieving your objective.

This has been a tough one for me because I can tend to be very outspoken and have a "hot button." My mouth used to say stuff that was NOT optimal before I could get a handle on it. At another point in my life, I HAD to suppress so much for the sake of my children that all that anger just turned in on myself and I became a physical wreck.

Another way to describe it is the art of Stalking and the Three Phase progression, as described by Castaneda (who we discovered got a lot of his ideas from Gurdjieff, by the way).

One of the greatest accomplishments of the seers of the Conquest was a construct he called the three-phase progression. By understanding the nature of man, they were able to reach the incontestable conclusion that if seers can hold their own in facing [human] petty tyrants, they can certainly face the unknown with impunity, and then they can even stand the presence of the unknowable.

The average man's reaction is to think that the order of that statement should be reversed," he went on. "A seer who can hold his own in the face of the unknown can certainly face petty tyrants. But that's not so. What destroyed the superb seers of ancient times was that assumption. We know better now. We know that nothing can temper the spirit of a warrior as much as the challenge of dealing with impossible people in positions of power. Only under those conditions can warriors acquire the sobriety and serenity to stand the pressure of the unknowable.

The Petty Tyrants are "like a mountain peak" and the attributes of the warrior - control, discipline, forbearance, timing, - are the climbers who meet at the summit.
 

Guardian

The Living Force
Laura said:
This has been a tough one for me because I can tend to be very outspoken and have a "hot button." My mouth used to say stuff that was NOT optimal before I could get a handle on it.

Oh I can relate to that!! The problem is that whatever comes out of my mouth seemed like a really good idea at the time. :-[
It's always the truth...but WHEN to tell the truth, and when not to is VERY difficult for me, 'cause I'm always thinking it.
Good example:
Me: "Officer, please, wait a minute...she's not answering you because she's in shock"
Cop: "Now why don't I believe that?"
Me: "Because you're an idiot on steroids?"

I knew the minute it came out of my mouth, that I shouldn't have said it.... but the thought just came right off my tongue and through my teeth before I had a chance to stop it :(
 

slowone

Jedi Master
Guardian said:
Laura said:
This has been a tough one for me because I can tend to be very outspoken and have a "hot button." My mouth used to say stuff that was NOT optimal before I could get a handle on it.

Oh I can relate to that!! The problem is that whatever comes out of my mouth seemed like a really good idea at the time. :-[
It's always the truth...but WHEN to tell the truth, and when not to is VERY difficult for me, 'cause I'm always thinking it.
Good example:
Me: "Officer, please, wait a minute...she's not answering you because she's in shock"
Cop: "Now why don't I believe that?"
Me: "Because you're an idiot on steroids?"

I knew the minute it came out of my mouth, that I shouldn't have said it.... but the thought just came right off my tongue and through my teeth before I had a chance to stop it :(

Guardian, Do you mind me asking what happened next?

I'm guessing your policemen in this instance wasn't best pleased!!! ;D Did you manage to get the situation cooled down or did it escalate?

I'm interested because I definitely have an outspoken programme accompanied by an air of indigence quite often!! A not particularly easy combination to shut up sometimes. I'm working on it though. Slowly :( It's getting that correct time to speak or to hold back that I'm struggling with.

At the moment I'm just trying to shut up and observe what's happening in me at those times when normally I would blurt something out.
 

Buddy

The Living Force
This thread talks about this subject also.

There is also an example of a Mom who described the practice of "holding it below the neck" and what resulted from it. The whole thread provides much more context, but the example is in this post and starts with:
[quote author=Laura]
Now, just to make sure you understand this point and how it relates to everyday life, I want to share with you a recent communication from one of my students who has been practicing this for awhile, and reported to me recently a significant victory.[/quote]
 

go2

Dagobah Resident
Laura said:
I don't think that it means to keep your mouth shut. But it does mean that if you open your mouth in that state, make it count and have it under YOUR control. There are times when speaking is the right thing to do. And there are times when it is not, and holding back is the correct, strategic thing to do.

Wow, the practical experience, depth, and clarity of thought on this thread is amazing. I have observed my argumentative and rebellious personality take control over and over in the last few years. A few months ago I began to repeat a simple centering prayer, "Lord, make me a channel of thy peace", before entering a situation which previously triggered identification and conflict. This centering prayer has been successful in set situations, but is yet to be tested in a "rubber band pop" incident. I continue to experiment and work to be present. Thanks everyone!
 

Guardian

The Living Force
slowone said:
Guardian, Do you mind me asking what happened next?

I'm guessing your policemen in this instance wasn't best pleased!!! ;D Did you manage to get the situation cooled down or did it escalate?

No, I apologized in the next sentence...well sorta, I said "I'm so sorry, I should not have said that out loud" ..which he did not catch because he was an idiot on steroids. His response was hysterically funny....it was all I could do to hold my tongue. He actually said "Lady I don't take steroids, this is all natural. I worked for this" then he flexed his arm.
He never denied that he was an idiot. :P

The ambulance came into sight about then and saved me as much as the girl in the accident.

It's getting that correct time to speak or to hold back that I'm struggling with.

Me too... well I don't exactly struggle with holding back, I struggle with why I should want to hold back.

At the moment I'm just trying to shut up and observe what's happening in me at those times when normally I would blurt something out.

I usually know exactly what's happening in me, outside of me, all around me, etc. when I blurt something out ...it's the "shut up" part I have a problem with. :(
 

Beau

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Guardian said:
Me too... well I don't exactly struggle with holding back, I struggle with why I should want to hold back.

I think Laura explained that well in her previous post:

Laura said:
The emotion issue goes hand in hand with external considering. External considering is doing what makes life easier for others AND yourself, and facilitates you getting to your goal or achieving your objective.

As much as you may feel righteous in expressing your emotions, their ARE times when it is best to keep it below the neck and find a better spot to let someone know how you really feel.
 

Guardian

The Living Force
Heimdallr said:
I think Laura explained that well in her previous post:

Yup, and her explanation makes perfect sense...right after I've done/said something stupid. It's getting her explanation to make perfect sense BEFORE I open my mouth that is eluding me.

As much as you may feel righteous in expressing your emotions, their ARE times when it is best to keep it below the neck and find a better spot to let someone know how you really feel.

Yeah...especially when they have a gun, stick, tazer, mace and handcuffs on their belt. My logical mind knows this...it really does, but sometimes my mouth just doesn't care. :(
 

combsbt

Jedi Master
Thank you everyone on this thread for the wonderful input, I have a lot of work to do in this area.


Laura said:
... as described by Castaneda (who we discovered got a lot of his ideas from Gurdjieff, by the way).

Laura, is there a thread or article explaining the connection? I'm really curious about this.
 

Guardian

The Living Force
Laura said:
The emotion issue goes hand in hand with external considering. External considering is doing what makes life easier for others AND yourself, and facilitates you getting to your goal or achieving your objective.

Something just occurred to me, I did achieve my objective. I wanted the cop to stop badgering a young woman who had a broken finger and was clearly going into shock ...and he did. I probably didn't pick the best way to do it.....but it did work.

Kinda like the difference between chaining myself to a bulldozer in a duck suit and renting a bill board. Both methods would get the attention we needed, but I don't get arrested for the billboard :)
 
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