Self-Observation, Inner Talking & Work Instrument
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Thanks obyvatel!Stevie Argyl
Jedi Master
Guardian
I think this is where self observation in the moment comes in. We can sometime change our emotions in the moment by reasoning something out or changing our thought and in doing so can miss the underlying belief that drives the behaviour, sometime in this way we simply create another 'automatic reaction' equally habitual. If we wait till later we may find ourselve in the position where the 'I' thats looking for the root won't see anything becuase the 'I' that reacted is not visible at that moment. That said, we can only do what we can do at the time and maybe in some circumstances we have to shift quickly.
Another thing we can look out for is what Gurdjieff sometimes called this 'self calming' , where we reduce the impact of a realisation by talking ourselves out of it , excusing, rather then sitting in the fire till we cook.
I think this is where self observation in the moment comes in. We can sometime change our emotions in the moment by reasoning something out or changing our thought and in doing so can miss the underlying belief that drives the behaviour, sometime in this way we simply create another 'automatic reaction' equally habitual. If we wait till later we may find ourselve in the position where the 'I' thats looking for the root won't see anything becuase the 'I' that reacted is not visible at that moment. That said, we can only do what we can do at the time and maybe in some circumstances we have to shift quickly.
Another thing we can look out for is what Gurdjieff sometimes called this 'self calming' , where we reduce the impact of a realisation by talking ourselves out of it , excusing, rather then sitting in the fire till we cook.
Guardian
The Cosmic Force
Stevie Argyll said:
Yup...that's the one I REALLY need to work on ... "self calming" Trying to get the "External Consideration" thing going when my blood is up BEFORE I shoot off my big mouth. Not a problem afterward or whenever I have time to think about an issue...but in the "heat of the moment" I have an EXTREMELY difficult time making myself think/care beyond the particular incident I'm involved in at the time.
Guardian said:
I think the important thing is recognizing it’s causes and symptoms such as how the anger affects your thoughts, feelings, and body and where the anger is localized such as, maybe it’s your head that feels hot, or maybe there’s a rapid heartbeat, how does your skin feel?, or there might be physical jitters, or maybe your stomach will feel upset. Notice muscle tensions and body postures, tone of voice. Stuff like that. Also, recognizing what triggers the anger, both internally and externally, how it makes you think towards yourself and others, how others react to it when you manifest it (even very subtly) and what happens within yourself when you internalize it (in my case it becomes depression).
I think a lot of anger will begin to dissipate once recognized in this way and the energy will be transformed with this increased recognition but there might be anger that goes deeper into the centers that I think must be recognized too. But imo its not so easy with the deep seated emotional anger (that has to be dealt with emotionally) which goes into the deeper parts of the centers but at least you’ll recognize that you have it and then you’ll look for ways to handle and deal with it, such as, for example, the EE program.
With my own anger I try to learn about the ‘how’ of it first before the ‘why’ of it along with increasing my ‘deep inner sensation’ of the anger that tells me, through greater awareness of sensation, how the anger is affecting me and in what center it's localized and being experienced and felt in. Then later, the why of it pretty much begins to come in little glimpses and ‘revelations’ as I continue to study the how of it and how it affects me (as described above)
So I think if you don’t express the anger then you have to become more conscious of yourself, since to not express it when your feeling it is to make yourself more conscious of the fact that you have it and that your not expressing it, and then this more conscious state can open up the possibility of studying its causes and symptoms. But there are times, depending on the specific situation, when I think anger can be expressed (or dealt with in other ways when required, such as creative activity, play, exercise, etc) but at least if you’re more conscious you’ll know your expressing it and why and for what purpose your expressing it, and it’ll be under your conscious control since it won’t be your (unconscious) false personality controlling and fooling you.
Tempus Fugit
Jedi
Going to second that. I have found this thread to be repeatedly helpful and think that, depending upon the person and situations, could perhaps even be a life-saver. The first post alone would be interesting to see in the Dot Connecter, right next to maybe an article on ponerization, psychopathy, etc...
Steve M.
Jedi Master
Agreed. It's great to go back over this topic. I'm having to rethink many things of late and getting back to the beginning and refreshing things is helpful. It's here (re)learning the base principles that I'm hoping will help me rewire myself.
I have to ask a few questions. At first does a person just try and observe the actions/reactions so as to identify how the machine reacts to the situations, but leaves the situation/reaction to proceed as it would usually? If yes, for how long, until one is sure of that splinter of time to step in and prevent the reaction (cause the keeping it below the neck?), when one is sure the reaction is commencing?
Feel like I'm clogging this up a bit with my line of questioning, but I hadda ask. I feel like I've a good handle on seeing things boiling up and have had some success at keeping it below the neck. At this point I don't feel like I get angry much anymore, at least not 'really' angry. It's more like a point where I just give up and feel drained, give in (to what I feel are not logical wants/demands by my significant other) and give up (let it go, but not on the inside. Inside it is more like a list is being written, why this (must have thing), why now (we just spent the money in hand on.. why at the last minute, we're headed home and now we have to back track/change course)).
These days there are a deeper range of emotions. Instead of just anger or rage there are confusion, frustration and fear all of which were taken as a cause for anger previously so my understanding and reactions are changing. confusion: I can seek clarity, frustration: can ask for help, fear: can look at/for the cause. The old reactions were confusion: I'm stupid, ignore, get angry enough to part ways, frustration: Break it, smash it.., fear: Run! Avoid! Puff up! So these are some things I'm attempting to get a better handle on DOing in order to deal with watching how 'it' reacts. I think this is helping in getting a better understanding of my machine.
I've got to practice EE more. Things at home are hectic at the beginning of a school year. My wife works the local fair (3 weeks'ish). The other day the Dog we inherited from a girl staying in an adjacent apartment broke it's leg, she's just not able to be present for a few more months, well that was $600 something dollars, the same day my daughter is faced with womanhood - certain physical cycles, my son got a 3 day suspension from school for the second time this week today ...heck, when it rains it pours. :) None of this is beyond me (I've been through worse) but I've been neglectful in the area of working on myself the last month roughly.
Guess it would be wise to remember - This too shall pass. It's something I often forget caught up in the deep sleep.
Salutes!
I have to ask a few questions. At first does a person just try and observe the actions/reactions so as to identify how the machine reacts to the situations, but leaves the situation/reaction to proceed as it would usually? If yes, for how long, until one is sure of that splinter of time to step in and prevent the reaction (cause the keeping it below the neck?), when one is sure the reaction is commencing?
Feel like I'm clogging this up a bit with my line of questioning, but I hadda ask. I feel like I've a good handle on seeing things boiling up and have had some success at keeping it below the neck. At this point I don't feel like I get angry much anymore, at least not 'really' angry. It's more like a point where I just give up and feel drained, give in (to what I feel are not logical wants/demands by my significant other) and give up (let it go, but not on the inside. Inside it is more like a list is being written, why this (must have thing), why now (we just spent the money in hand on.. why at the last minute, we're headed home and now we have to back track/change course)).
These days there are a deeper range of emotions. Instead of just anger or rage there are confusion, frustration and fear all of which were taken as a cause for anger previously so my understanding and reactions are changing. confusion: I can seek clarity, frustration: can ask for help, fear: can look at/for the cause. The old reactions were confusion: I'm stupid, ignore, get angry enough to part ways, frustration: Break it, smash it.., fear: Run! Avoid! Puff up! So these are some things I'm attempting to get a better handle on DOing in order to deal with watching how 'it' reacts. I think this is helping in getting a better understanding of my machine.
I've got to practice EE more. Things at home are hectic at the beginning of a school year. My wife works the local fair (3 weeks'ish). The other day the Dog we inherited from a girl staying in an adjacent apartment broke it's leg, she's just not able to be present for a few more months, well that was $600 something dollars, the same day my daughter is faced with womanhood - certain physical cycles, my son got a 3 day suspension from school for the second time this week today ...heck, when it rains it pours. :) None of this is beyond me (I've been through worse) but I've been neglectful in the area of working on myself the last month roughly.
Guess it would be wise to remember - This too shall pass. It's something I often forget caught up in the deep sleep.
Salutes!
Balberon said:
Hi Balberon. This is a good goal! I think sometimes "starting from the beginning" is a good thing to do. It gives us an opportunity to not only see things that HAVE changed in us, but to see things we thought had changed, but are still the same. And remember, probably the most important step in rewiring ourselves is to get our physical body functioning as it should: getting our nutrition on track and straightening out our brain chemistry. It's amazing the difference it makes when our "vehicle" is functioning the way it should!
Well, in general, yeah, the first step is just to observe yourself to gather impressions. Because at first, there's nothing you can do about programs. They're too mechanical. In fact, you'll often only notice (I did and do) that you're running a program AFTER the fact. But by turning attention toward yourself, you'll be able to get closer and closer to the time when the reaction starts. I think it should be a natural progression. IF you can catch yourself reacting and keep it below the neck, do it. But if you can't, just make a note to yourself what the reaction was like, what situation provoked it, how you felt, what you thought, etc. When you see it once, you'll be able to see it again.
Nothing wrong with asking!
Sounds like you're getting an understanding of how your machine works! It's interesting that life provides these opportunities, isn't it? It sounds like EE and diet changes may be helping with your anger, which is good. However, the one thing that concerns me is the feeling you have of giving up and then feeling drained. Can you describe a situation where this has happened recently?
Yep, and keep up with the EE! The more you practice, the better you'll be able to interact with your environment in a positive way.
Steve M.
Jedi Master
Hi Approaching Infinity,
You asked:
I'll try. It was over this last weekend, Sunday. I was visiting my good friend (C) out in the country. It's nice to go out there and get away and so as a family we go out and visit my friend and his family about every other weekend. After breakfast and as C and I were getting ready to start on whipping his yard further into shape the ladies decided they were going to go to the store. I kicked down a pretty hefty sum of money and my wife said, "you want something special?" to which I said Yes! A few minutes later she came out and said we need more vitamins to which I said, then here is more money, I still want something special. So I had some expectations, not huge, but some.
When they returned from going to 2-3 different stores (I think 2) there was nothing for me. What I mean by that was there was not this snack-able special (?) thing. There were the vitamins, a few other necessities and her Coffee Pot, Iron and some sort of frying pan, matching items, none of which we needed. While I could accept being forgotten, I didn't bring up something special in the first place, so I felt my expectations were given to me, not from my own desires, but because I was told to have them. Would a tube of crackers been too much to ask for, or expect $120 bucks later? So I was a bit bothered by that situation, but instead of going off the deep end it was more of a feeling of being betrayed, acceptance and drainage.
Betrayed: in terms of -"you want something special?" and so given expectation, so far as I could tell.
Acceptance: in terms of, well I feel like I could go off but the only thing your stuck with in a spilled milk situation is cleaning it up.
Drainage: Well in this instance it was my wallet and expectations. I make promises and sometimes fail, but I do my darnedest in such situations to try and render a solution. There was also the lack of needs purchase (in this case the matching coffee Pot, iron and frying pan).
It's often that situations like this rise and I can't figure out what to do or how to avoid them without sitting down and writing out a list and counting every dollar. I'm trying to give her slack and see how things play out, and I always give more and add a tip for my best friends wife for her time and to help them out as well in case something gets overlooked. As I think about it now, I get the feeling that I'm setting her up to fail somehow. Something I'm not quite grasping. Something on the edge of my vision that I can't quite get into focus cause I can't turn my head - metaphorically.
I just started going over the big five again. I'm also reading parts of it to my wife. The hope is that it gives up both a glimpse of how to grasp one anothers' wiring so that we can have the tools to help each other in a less controlling, guilty, hurtful way. To me at times out relationship is like having one anothers' switches, you know, the pain, grief, guilt buttons and we're both just there to jam each others buttons.
Still trying to see things for what they are in this situation. Not really frustrated about it, but in situations I get really frustrated in, drained is usually how I feel. On one hand I was thinking I expel so much energy with making the other person feel guilty, which causes an argument to ensue. On the other hand there is just a sense of betrayal. I know it's not an end of the world situation, I just have trouble getting over my expectations when I was told to my face I can have them. I'm quite narcissistic.
You asked:
I'll try. It was over this last weekend, Sunday. I was visiting my good friend (C) out in the country. It's nice to go out there and get away and so as a family we go out and visit my friend and his family about every other weekend. After breakfast and as C and I were getting ready to start on whipping his yard further into shape the ladies decided they were going to go to the store. I kicked down a pretty hefty sum of money and my wife said, "you want something special?" to which I said Yes! A few minutes later she came out and said we need more vitamins to which I said, then here is more money, I still want something special. So I had some expectations, not huge, but some.
When they returned from going to 2-3 different stores (I think 2) there was nothing for me. What I mean by that was there was not this snack-able special (?) thing. There were the vitamins, a few other necessities and her Coffee Pot, Iron and some sort of frying pan, matching items, none of which we needed. While I could accept being forgotten, I didn't bring up something special in the first place, so I felt my expectations were given to me, not from my own desires, but because I was told to have them. Would a tube of crackers been too much to ask for, or expect $120 bucks later? So I was a bit bothered by that situation, but instead of going off the deep end it was more of a feeling of being betrayed, acceptance and drainage.
Betrayed: in terms of -"you want something special?" and so given expectation, so far as I could tell.
Acceptance: in terms of, well I feel like I could go off but the only thing your stuck with in a spilled milk situation is cleaning it up.
Drainage: Well in this instance it was my wallet and expectations. I make promises and sometimes fail, but I do my darnedest in such situations to try and render a solution. There was also the lack of needs purchase (in this case the matching coffee Pot, iron and frying pan).
It's often that situations like this rise and I can't figure out what to do or how to avoid them without sitting down and writing out a list and counting every dollar. I'm trying to give her slack and see how things play out, and I always give more and add a tip for my best friends wife for her time and to help them out as well in case something gets overlooked. As I think about it now, I get the feeling that I'm setting her up to fail somehow. Something I'm not quite grasping. Something on the edge of my vision that I can't quite get into focus cause I can't turn my head - metaphorically.
I just started going over the big five again. I'm also reading parts of it to my wife. The hope is that it gives up both a glimpse of how to grasp one anothers' wiring so that we can have the tools to help each other in a less controlling, guilty, hurtful way. To me at times out relationship is like having one anothers' switches, you know, the pain, grief, guilt buttons and we're both just there to jam each others buttons.
Still trying to see things for what they are in this situation. Not really frustrated about it, but in situations I get really frustrated in, drained is usually how I feel. On one hand I was thinking I expel so much energy with making the other person feel guilty, which causes an argument to ensue. On the other hand there is just a sense of betrayal. I know it's not an end of the world situation, I just have trouble getting over my expectations when I was told to my face I can have them. I'm quite narcissistic.
Thanks for sharing this, Balberon.
I think it's perfectly normal to feel like this after such a situation. I do wonder if maybe you and your wife had different ideas about what she meant by her question? Could she have meant, "Do you want something special [for the house]?", for example? Or maybe she just forgot. In situations like this, I think the Adult Communication that the Pressmans talk about in Narcissistic Family can come in handy. If you've got the book around, read through the second appendix, where they give transcripts of a couple sessions of therapy with a husband and wife. It sounds like you're letting things eat you without sharing what you're feeling. If you express what you feel in an adult way, I think it'll relieve some of the tension you feel, which just leaves you feeling drained. If you both have different expectations (e.g. about money), but if neither of you communicates, it'll just create problems. But if you talk about it (calmly and respectfully), you may be able to reach some compromises. FWIW.
Balberon said:
I think it's perfectly normal to feel like this after such a situation. I do wonder if maybe you and your wife had different ideas about what she meant by her question? Could she have meant, "Do you want something special [for the house]?", for example? Or maybe she just forgot. In situations like this, I think the Adult Communication that the Pressmans talk about in Narcissistic Family can come in handy. If you've got the book around, read through the second appendix, where they give transcripts of a couple sessions of therapy with a husband and wife. It sounds like you're letting things eat you without sharing what you're feeling. If you express what you feel in an adult way, I think it'll relieve some of the tension you feel, which just leaves you feeling drained. If you both have different expectations (e.g. about money), but if neither of you communicates, it'll just create problems. But if you talk about it (calmly and respectfully), you may be able to reach some compromises. FWIW.
Balberon said:
Hi Balberon,
Yes, practicing EE more will be of great benefit for your stress levels when 'things happen' like you've described here.
Just a few questions: How much time do you have alone each day to perhaps just do the pipe breathing and meditation? Is there time at work perhaps when you can take 15 minutes for EE? Are you able to listen to the meditation each night before sleep? Is your wife interested in EE?
How are your magnesium levels? Any supplements missing from your daily regime?
Balberon said:
I'm afraid maybe you will just have to start making a list. You didn't give her much direction. "Something special" means... what??? Ask ten different people and you'll get ten answers. From previous posts, I get the impression that you and your wife are not always on the same page, so perhaps to "expect" her to read your mind isn't very realistic. I hate to say it, bit I think you set yourself up in this situation.
