Session 14 August 2016

Azur

The Living Force
Chu said:
Yas said:
What I see sometimes is that we can tend to expect that the road will be a happy one, that there will be no suffering in it and that we just have to "love ourselves" and follow our hearts, etc... I know there is a great deal of learning to love ourselves sincerely and following our hearts, but sometimes that can be misunderstood and we can forget that in order to truly love ourselves and follow our hearts, we have to be "attuned", so to say, we have to be able to see ourselves as we are and to discern what is it that our "heart" wants. And that means looking at our illusions and delusions in order to see past them, which will be painful because we lose the sense of comfort.

Indeed! And don't get me started about the whole idea of "you must hug yourself and you'll be fine!" :P What little I is one supposed to "hug", if one doesn't know his or her machine? That's just BS if you ask me. It's loving oneself more objectively, during and after those moments of friction, deciding to do our best even when it hurts the false parts, applying "tough love", etc. that's the challenge, IMO. That requires more love than "hugging oneself".

I am reading Gurdjieff's "Life Is Real Only Then, When 'I Am'" and what I get from it so far is a different side of Gurdjieff I didn't know (of course I haven't really read much of his work). What I see is his humanity, his inner struggle in the same terms of the various struggles that many people here are facing. And what I'm seeing is that this inner suffering never goes away as we might expect it to do (or maybe it does after a really looooooong time), but actually, the aim isn't to make it go away, but to walk towards what we want in spite of that suffering, we do not fight it, it's there, it hurts, yet we continue to walk and maybe it can be a fuel as well... as one factor that can give a deeper understanding of life and our "human condition", as well as the spark necessary to light the fire within.

Thanks for putting it like that. It is horrifying to realize how mechanical and selfish we are, but until we do, why want to change? I agree with you, it never becomes easy (in fact, sometimes it gets harder depending on the realizations one has), and there may not be any "reward" in the end. At least not in the way we thought or were programmed to believe there might be one. But when we stop and look, there are always many things to also feel grateful for, like the stoics would recommend doing regularly. Sometimes I think that, had I not learned anything at all, or having not kept trying at least, I would not have much to be grateful for either. So, in a sense, that brings "love for oneself", because we do have a part to play regarding where we are at in life. Just as we can see how our mistakes and mechanicalness led us astray/make us stupid/manipulative, etc. many times, we can also find a bit of solace in the fact that, through efforts and thanks to this wonderful network, even being able to See that, is something to be grateful for. Because from that comes the force to change, to give back to the Universe, to Be as best as you can be, no matter how many lives it takes. And we can find short instants of happiness in the present, without the illusion of eternal "rainbows and unicorns", or anything like that.

Thank you both for this wonderful exchange.
 

Keit

Ambassador
Ambassador
FOTCM Member
Chu said:
So, in a sense, that brings "love for oneself", because we do have a part to play regarding where we are at in life. Just as we can see how our mistakes and mechanicalness led us astray/make us stupid/manipulative, etc. many times, we can also find a bit of solace in the fact that, through efforts and thanks to this wonderful network, even being able to See that, is something to be grateful for. Because from that comes the force to change, to give back to the Universe, to Be as best as you can be, no matter how many lives it takes. And we can find short instants of happiness in the present, without the illusion of eternal "rainbows and unicorns", or anything like that.

Thank you for the reminder, Chu. Indeed, there are so many things to be grateful for, especially when looking back and realizing how beneficial this network has been. How things could have been different, and how different still they may become, if more effort will be made in the same direction. And that we have a responsibility to show the Universe that we are indeed grateful, and make sure to utilize all the gifts that we were given. :flowers:
 

Bojan71

Padawan Learner
Are crystal orgonites more effective than single crystals? Can they be used for personal, group and space protection?
 

A Jay

Ambassador
Ambassador
FOTCM Member
Keit said:
Chu said:
So, in a sense, that brings "love for oneself", because we do have a part to play regarding where we are at in life. Just as we can see how our mistakes and mechanicalness led us astray/make us stupid/manipulative, etc. many times, we can also find a bit of solace in the fact that, through efforts and thanks to this wonderful network, even being able to See that, is something to be grateful for. Because from that comes the force to change, to give back to the Universe, to Be as best as you can be, no matter how many lives it takes. And we can find short instants of happiness in the present, without the illusion of eternal "rainbows and unicorns", or anything like that.

Thank you for the reminder, Chu. Indeed, there are so many things to be grateful for, especially when looking back and realizing how beneficial this network has been. How things could have been different, and how different still they may become, if more effort will be made in the same direction. And that we have a responsibility to show the Universe that we are indeed grateful, and make sure to utilize all the gifts that we were given. :flowers:

And what better way to show the Universe how grateful we are for the gifts we've been given than to use them as the Universe intended. Like in the parable of the talents. A gift isn't much of a gift if it's buried in the sand. It's only when we use them and share them with others that their real value shines through.
 

SeekinTruth

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
A Jay said:
Keit said:
Chu said:
So, in a sense, that brings "love for oneself", because we do have a part to play regarding where we are at in life. Just as we can see how our mistakes and mechanicalness led us astray/make us stupid/manipulative, etc. many times, we can also find a bit of solace in the fact that, through efforts and thanks to this wonderful network, even being able to See that, is something to be grateful for. Because from that comes the force to change, to give back to the Universe, to Be as best as you can be, no matter how many lives it takes. And we can find short instants of happiness in the present, without the illusion of eternal "rainbows and unicorns", or anything like that.

Thank you for the reminder, Chu. Indeed, there are so many things to be grateful for, especially when looking back and realizing how beneficial this network has been. How things could have been different, and how different still they may become, if more effort will be made in the same direction. And that we have a responsibility to show the Universe that we are indeed grateful, and make sure to utilize all the gifts that we were given. :flowers:

And what better way to show the Universe how grateful we are for the gifts we've been given than to use them as the Universe intended. Like in the parable of the talents. A gift isn't much of a gift if it's buried in the sand. It's only when we use them and share them with others that their real value shines through.

Yeah, agreed. Gratitude is one of those tools to be regularly utilized in the Work, and using our gifts is also very important as we grow and develop.
 

Hesper

Ambassador
Ambassador
FOTCM Member
Keit said:
Chu said:
So, in a sense, that brings "love for oneself", because we do have a part to play regarding where we are at in life. Just as we can see how our mistakes and mechanicalness led us astray/make us stupid/manipulative, etc. many times, we can also find a bit of solace in the fact that, through efforts and thanks to this wonderful network, even being able to See that, is something to be grateful for. Because from that comes the force to change, to give back to the Universe, to Be as best as you can be, no matter how many lives it takes. And we can find short instants of happiness in the present, without the illusion of eternal "rainbows and unicorns", or anything like that.

Thank you for the reminder, Chu. Indeed, there are so many things to be grateful for, especially when looking back and realizing how beneficial this network has been. How things could have been different, and how different still they may become, if more effort will be made in the same direction. And that we have a responsibility to show the Universe that we are indeed grateful, and make sure to utilize all the gifts that we were given. :flowers:

Thanks for sharing Yas and Chu. This exchange reminded me about what 'Don Juan' said about the importance of discipline:

“This predator,” don Juan said, “which, of course, is an inorganic being, is not altogether invisible to us as other inorganic beings are. I think as children we do see it, but we decide it’s so horrific that we don’t want to think about it. Children, of course, could insist on focusing on the sight, but everybody else around them dissuades them from doing so. The only alternative left for mankind is discipline. Discipline is the only deterrent. But by discipline I don’t mean harsh routines. I don’t mean waking up every morning at five-thirty and throwing cold water on yourself until you’re blue. Sorcerers understand discipline as the capacity to face with serenity odds that are not included in our expectations. For sorcerers, discipline is an art; the art of facing infinity without flinching; not because they are strong and tough, but because they are filled with awe.”

Like you said Yas, it seems the aim isn't to make the inner suffering go away. I think that that suffering, combined with the conscious discipline and utilizing our knowledge practically works miracles for us. And with those fruits we make life that much better for one another. Thanks for sharing :thup:
 

Chu

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Hesper said:
Like you said Yas, it seems the aim isn't to make the inner suffering go away. I think that that suffering, combined with the conscious discipline and utilizing our knowledge practically works miracles for us. And with those fruits we make life that much better for one another. Thanks for sharing :thup:

Along these lines, I'm currently reading a book called Warrior Way, which Ark had mentioned the other day. In it, Alexis Carrel is mentioned, and I wanted to find out a bit more about him. The first thing I stumbled upon were these quotes:

Discipline brings us effort, sacrifice and suffering. Later it brings us something of an inestimable value: something of which those who live only for pleasure, profit or amusement will always be deprived. This peculiar indefinable joy which one must have felt oneself to understand is the sign with which life marks its moment of triumph.

Hard conditions of life are indispensable to bringing out the best in human personality.

In joy or sorrow, health or sickness, prosperity or the reverse, the effort must still continue. One must rise after every fall and gradually acquire courage, faith, the will to succeed and the capacity to love.
 

Yas

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Keit said:
Chu said:
So, in a sense, that brings "love for oneself", because we do have a part to play regarding where we are at in life. Just as we can see how our mistakes and mechanicalness led us astray/make us stupid/manipulative, etc. many times, we can also find a bit of solace in the fact that, through efforts and thanks to this wonderful network, even being able to See that, is something to be grateful for. Because from that comes the force to change, to give back to the Universe, to Be as best as you can be, no matter how many lives it takes. And we can find short instants of happiness in the present, without the illusion of eternal "rainbows and unicorns", or anything like that.

Thank you for the reminder, Chu. Indeed, there are so many things to be grateful for, especially when looking back and realizing how beneficial this network has been. How things could have been different, and how different still they may become, if more effort will be made in the same direction. And that we have a responsibility to show the Universe that we are indeed grateful, and make sure to utilize all the gifts that we were given. :flowers:

So true and so beautifully put Chu and Keit. Thank you.

I think this is another instance in which "the devil is in the details". The problem with the "love yourself" talk is that it usually lacks objectivity. It is a "love" based on avoidance of that part of us which is uncomfortable and aggrandizement of what gives us comfort. Trying to "create" a reality of "eternal rainbows and unicorns" you mentioned, so to say. What you describe is different; It's love where you see yourself with your limitations and even "wrongdoings" and you accept where you're at and you also accept that you can do an effort to become better. And here is where the usual attributes of self-discipline, self-confidence, self-compassion, faith, etc., can play a role. But always balanced an fueled by the horror and suffering of our inevitable "human condition", so to say.

And yes, gratitude towards this network is very powerful too. Especially since it would be very difficult to have the chance to go through this path without others who help us see what we can't see and who put up different alarms systems so that we don't fall asleep, as G. said in a passage in In Search of the Miraculous. And, going back to love, what better example of love there is than this place where people try to wake you up and bring up that which is true in you? And then, the gratitude for that brings joy too. :)

Chu said:
Hesper said:
Like you said Yas, it seems the aim isn't to make the inner suffering go away. I think that that suffering, combined with the conscious discipline and utilizing our knowledge practically works miracles for us. And with those fruits we make life that much better for one another. Thanks for sharing :thup:

Along these lines, I'm currently reading a book called Warrior Way, which Ark had mentioned the other day. In it, Alexis Carrel is mentioned, and I wanted to find out a bit more about him. The first thing I stumbled upon were these quotes:

Discipline brings us effort, sacrifice and suffering. Later it brings us something of an inestimable value: something of which those who live only for pleasure, profit or amusement will always be deprived. This peculiar indefinable joy which one must have felt oneself to understand is the sign with which life marks its moment of triumph.

Hard conditions of life are indispensable to bringing out the best in human personality.

In joy or sorrow, health or sickness, prosperity or the reverse, the effort must still continue. One must rise after every fall and gradually acquire courage, faith, the will to succeed and the capacity to love.

Very good quotes! Thanks for sharing them!
 

PerfectCircle

Jedi Master
Yas said:
And yes, gratitude towards this network is very powerful too. Especially since it would be very difficult to have the chance to go through this path without others who help us see what we can't see and who put up different alarms systems so that we don't fall asleep, as G. said in a passage in In Search of the Miraculous. And, going back to love, what better example of love there is than this place where people try to wake you up and bring up that which is true in you? And then, the gratitude for that brings joy too. :)

You said that so well that I almost drop a tear from my eye. :)
I remember some time ago when I first came upon those sayings from G about group work and preventing that someone goes back to sleep, I was thinking like "Who can actually help me stay awake when everyone around me is in deep sleep? And whom can I help to stay awake when noone around me wants to wake up"
But it hadn't crossed my mind then that forum networking could do that until I came here.
I am truly grateful to Laura, her team, this forum and its members!
 

Hesper

Ambassador
Ambassador
FOTCM Member
Chu said:
In joy or sorrow, health or sickness, prosperity or the reverse, the effort must still continue. One must rise after every fall and gradually acquire courage, faith, the will to succeed and the capacity to love.

Excellent quotes, thank you. I'm about halfway through the book and I find his descriptions of the hardships he faced, and the people he met, to be a real boon. He did not leave an easy life, having been abandoned at an early age, losing loved ones, and being sent around the world by his 'elite' father to labor under strange consequences. His description of living as a child with peasants is phenomenal - one feels in awe at the brutality of their lives, their poverty, the fact that they sang from morning to evening in the fields only to return home singing. He doesn't dress up his early attitudes of self pity and anger at the world, but shows himself warts and all. It's true - no pain, no gain.
 

Nachtweide

Jedi Council Member
FOTCM Member
Hard conditions of life are indispensable to bringing out the best in human personality.

I think the first trait that must dominate or train a person, is the will. Without the will, there is no way of learning and human development. Courage and discipline are other attributes that make a fighter. With these weapons, it is possible to tackle the human trials. A hard life is the challenge and it is necessary to grow our life tests. I look great pride in each test my past, often very painful and hard that I passed thanks to my strong will, my courage and my discipline.
 

Heather

Dagobah Resident
I've always been interested in this aspect of things as well:

herondancer said:
What a wonderfully deep session.

seek10 said:
Laura said:
Q: (L) And what had it been corrupted to?

A: The Indian Vedas will give clues.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zurvanism
Aesthetic Zurvanism
Aesthetic Zurvanism, which was apparently not as popular as the materialistic kind, viewed Zurvan as undifferentiated Time, which, under the influence of desire, divided into reason (a male principle) and concupiscence (a female principle).


According to Duchesne-Guillemin, this division is "redolent of Gnosticism or – still better – of Indian cosmology." The parallels between Zurvan and Prajapati of Rig Veda 10.129 had been taken by Widengren to be evidence of a proto-Indo-Iranian Zurvan, but these arguments have since been dismissed (Duchesne-Guillemin, 1956). Nonetheless, there is a semblance of Zurvanite elements in Vedic texts, and as Zaehner puts it "Time, for the Indians, is the raw material, the material prima of all contingent being."

The blue- bolded part struck me a little, as the word concupiscence has a somewhat narrow meaning today, namely lust and carnal desire. The Catholic church has had a fine old time railing against it for centuries, demonizing women as a danger to men because they were it's source.

However it earlier meant 'desire' in a broader sense. From google:

Middle English: via Old French from late Latin concupiscentia, from Latin concupiscent- ‘beginning to desire,’ from the verb concupiscere, from con- (expressing intensive force) + cupere ‘to desire.’

And also

concupiscence (n.) Look up concupiscence at Dictionary.com
mid-14c., from Latin concupiscentia "eager desire," from concupiscens, present participle of concupiscere, inceptive of concupere "to be very desirous of," from com-, intensive prefix (see com-), + cupere "to long for" (see cupidity).

So it could mean any strongly felt desire. But even at Zervanism's early date there seems to be an association of the feminine principle with"desire".

The oft quoted session from the C's

Session 990828 said:
Q: Okay, so this realm changed, as a part of the cycle; various choices were made: the
human race went through the door after the 'gold,' so to speak, and became aligned with the
Lizzies after the 'female energy' consorted with the wrong side, so to speak.
This is what
you have said. This resulted in a number of effects: the breaking up of the DNA, the burning
off of the first ten factors of DNA, the separation of the hemispheres of the brain...
A: Only reason for this: you play in the dirt, you're gonna get dirty.
Q: What was the motivating factor for playing in the dirt? What essential thing occurred?
You said once that it was 'desire based imbalance.' What was it a desire for?
A: Increased physicality.
Q: What was the objective sought for in this desire for increased physicality?
A: Sensate.
Q: How was sensate experienced so that these beings had an idea that they could get more
if they increased their physicality?
A: Not experienced, demonstrated.
Q: Demonstrated how, by who?
A: Do you not know?
Q: It was demonstrated by the Lizzies?
A: Basically.
Q: Demonstrated in what way? Did they say: 'here, try this!' Or did they demonstrate by
showing or doing?
A: Closer to the latter.
Q: They were doing, experimenting, playing, and saying: 'look, we are doing this, it's so
great, come here and try it?'
A: Not really. More like: "you could have this."
Q: What seemed to be so desirable about this increased physicality when they said 'you can
have this?'
A: Use your imagination!
Q: Was there any understanding, or realization of any kind, that increased physicality could
be like Osiris lured into his own coffin by Set? That they would then slam the lid shut and
nail him in?
A: Obviously, such understanding was lacking.
Q: Sounds like a pretty naive bunch! Does the lack of this understanding reflect a lack of
knowledge?
A: Of course. But more, it is desire getting in the way of...

The Zoroastrian Gathas, are sprinkled with statements that appear to view the position of men and women as fairly equal especially in Gatha 53. The link is a pdf of a simplified translation, so you'll need to scroll down.

In the later Zervanism, women it seems women are blamed in much the same way as in Judeo-Christianity, though those ideas may have crept in from elsewhere.

https://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic said:
[..] classical Zurvanism's shades of Zurvan as potential and Zurvan as infinite time smells of the idea of 7th density, but of course there are other ideas not exactly corresponding to the Cs, such as some Zurvanites's denigration of women by their association with Ahriman and the Az. The way the ideas are presented though makes it appear that the anti-female ideas were a later corruption of an existing set of ideas.

Perhaps this occurred with the introduction of Aristotelian ideas which had a big effect on Zurvanism. See the new classifications of warm and moist for Ohrmazd, and dry and cold for Ahriman. With women associated with Ahriman's elements, so to flowed the idea of them as evil. This isn't to say all Zurvanism supported this idea, as there was another perspective in which women and men alike were associated with Ohrmazd, as moist and hot respectively.

I'm not really sure where I'm going with this but I thought to throw it in the mix.

In terms of the C's material, it seems to be that the female energy was out of balance with the male. "Desire based imbalance," as Laura quoted from earlier C material.

But no matter how many times I've read this passage about "going for the gold," etc., it's difficult to understand why this had to happen in the first place, when obviously there was a time when a type of balance was in place. Just why does the Serpent get to have the upper hand?

.. I just thought of God wanting/needing to "know" itself.. (this as related to Sufism, perhaps). So, mankind is locked out of heaven, as it were, in order to learn those lessons brought on by "increased physicality."

.. but what this says about the feminine principle is still.. tricky. Possibly. Or is it? Is it our personalizing the feminine as belonging to the female that's the problem, when of course we are all comprised of both? But, even so, the feminine principle, then, is largely maligned. Is it that it is a volatile aspect in itself?

I'm reminded of a book by Camille Paglia, Sexual Personae (1990) which I read portions of some years ago now. It's a polarizing book, and I won't get into all that. Wikipedia does a good run-through actually:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_Personae


There's something Paglia says in her book, however, that I've always remembered. First a quote from wiki on her book:

Portraying Western culture as a struggle between phallic, sky-religion on the one hand, and chthonic, earth-religion on the other, Paglia draws on the Greco-Roman polarity between the Apollonian and Dionysian. She associates Apollo with order, structure, and symmetry, and Dionysus with chaos, disorder, and nature.

Paglia states (and I'm paraphrasing) were humankind to be (or had it remained) aligned with the chthonian we would still be living in grass huts.

.. this came to mind when, in the interview by Kerry Cassidy, Laura talks about -- was it early megalithic times? -- but that period that sustained itself for thousands of years with small villages, no feudal fortresses or stone walls, no WAR.

.. of course, Paglia does not include the possibility of inter-dimensional reality, or deep reality, and being in tune with that. But she is positing that the chthonian -- and in that being tied more to nature -- would result in a lack of civilization as we presently know it (i.e., not necessarily a bad thing, although I'm not sure Paglia would agree!)

.. any case, if we allow for the idea of inter-dimensional or cosmic reality, aren't we talking about forces that in and of themselves would be chaotic without the knowledge (Apollonian, say) to properly harness/utilize them etc.? So, again.. (and this isn't about Paglia at this point, she just came to mind).. but, again, it's the balance of these two aspects that seems at issue.

--oh, and come the Serpent, knowledge gets hijacked and the Dionysian prevails.

Gosh, I accidentally posted this before I really meant to. And I think I lost my train of thought.. (sigh)

Anyway, thanks Laura, et. al., for all the amazing work you're doing, and I'm looking forward to receiving the crystals to see what happens from there (!)
 

Nachtweide

Jedi Council Member
FOTCM Member
The health status of Hillary Clinton is becoming increasingly serious. An event on 9/11 she had to leave. The photographs speak for themselves. I do not think that they can keep their health longer secret.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2ePyLt6K6M
 
Top Bottom