Session 28 March 2010

CEdicon

Padawan Learner
Thanks for the replies Alana and truthseeker!

All you had to say was sacred cow! I've read lots of the Laurel Canyon series and a funny thing was that I wasn't really taken aback by what I had read. For me, the initial shock and awe of the Laurel Canyon controversies gave way real quick. I just bought what he was selling with these wild stories of LSD and Charles Manson. The gay "movement" is something I have been interested in since I came out of the closet so this news hit me much harder. I still have questions about it but not too many doubts to be honest. For instance, was the Mattachine Society born out of the CIA? (CIA est. in 1947 and Mattachine est. in 1950) I'll have to see what I can find.
 
Hi! Long time lurker of about 7 years, first time poster!

I wanted to offer a note of tenderness to the topic of co-sleeping and coddling.
My intention is not to present an argument for or against any aspect of parenting – now that I am one, I’m astounded at how complex it is. We all make the best decisions we can with the information and skills we have at that time, and I’m only here to offer my experience of it.

Here’s the backgrounder: my husband and I are older parents (I’m 40 next year & he’s in his mid 40s) and becoming parents was a choice. We plan on having at least one more child, but that hasn’t happened yet – so this lends itself to even more tenderness and appreciation of our toddler, and how fleeting and deep childhood is. We’re all too aware that soon he’ll leave us in the dust to chase his own life. We’ve both had difficult and challenging childhoods, grew up poor and abused. And it’s made us very cognizant of treating our child(ren) with dignity, compassion and respect – no easy task if it’s never been modeled for you.

Our son is turning three this summer and we still co-sleep, but we’ve also all agreed that his birthday will be the end of this phase of our lives. And more to the point, I don’t think co-sleeping necessarily equates to a continuation of the womb. I didn’t take offence to the comments about how parents can use co-sleeping as an opportunity to distance themselves from each other – this is easily true in a lot of relationships, but not our case. We’ve found a lot of ways to compensate for the compromises that co-sleeping obviously creates, but we both still consider co-sleeping to be a privilege, not a burden or indulgence. We’ve talked about this topic a lot and how our decision is imprinting our son, and we don’t think it’s “better” than having him in his own bed, just a different experience that I’ll elaborate on.

Co-sleeping has been an opportunity for all of us to grow in intimacy, in ways that aren’t readily available throughout the day. We have a high spirited kid – which translates as a very physical, chatty, and intense interaction with life. This means there are no lulls during the day that we sometimes get in the middle of the night… rich conversations that never would have happened stuck in traffic or at the dinner table… lengthily insights to how he thinks about life and interprets actions (not just the chattering monkey, no offence to toddlers!). I wish I had a poignant example to share right now, but I don’t. This is what his father and I are getting out of co-sleeping, including lots more cuddling and hand holding than a busy boy allots for in his busy agenda! I almost forgot, we also get to absorb his beauty and smell his hair to our hearts’ content… without him waking up because he’s used to the jostling & noises.

And what he’s learning from co-sleeping is a lot about compromise and group dynamics. Again, opportunities that don’t exist throughout the weekdays while I’m at the office and he’s at daycare, or on the weekends where it’s hustle and bustle or walks in the woods and gardening, which again, are not the same dynamic of lulled time combined with shared physical space. If he had been in his own bed this whole time, he would have not be imprinted with small aspects of challenging his (age appropriately) self-absorption and selfishness. From small things like sharing blankets, to keeping his feet to himself because it causes us pain (which is a constant battle, but a lesson that needs to be learned and processed, and ostensibly different from learning about inflicting pain from the “smack a kid to get the toy back” shtick), to the giggles and anguish from sharing farts, to learning not to yammer away because it keeps someone else up and he needs to learn to respect the needs of others, to learning that if he wants to fling his socks and/or eat his boogers with abandon, he needs to sleep in his own dang bed and get his privacy and relish it!

And to be clear, he does fall asleep on his own, we don’t crawl into bed with him at 7. Although it’s still is a challenge to get him to fall asleep some nights, but I don’t think that wouldn’t be any different if we weren’t co-sleeping – he is who he is, and number two have a different set of challenges (and to be frank, I do hope that #2 can sleep in his/her own bed from the get & not have colic and anxiety… no matter how much I relish co-sleeping). On nights that he’s trying to manipulate us to “come sleep with me,” by whining, lying, begging, or screaming we call him on the carpet about his behaviour and enforce the rules of no talking or getting out of bed or else we close & lock the door – which he typically disagrees with by a bit of screaming, but we’ve always explained that it’s a clearly articulated rule and a consequence of his own actions that he’s responsible for controlling.

And to tie up this long winded parenting post – he is a child who is well adored but for whom high expectations are demanded and created. Like I said, I grew up abused and know that rising above adversity has created my strengths and insights. I have put a lot of thought as to how not to create a spoiled child – and how to build in challenges throughout his day to build his character, integrity and independence. It started with things like not picking him up when he would fall (but if he were genuinely distraught I would comfort him, I’m not putting ideology before love and trust), or telling him that I believed that he could do it on his own and that I want him to try again or figure it out from a different angle (but again, stepping in when I could see that it was starting to crack him), or if he said he was going to go wash his hands now, by Jove, he WILL do as he said he said he would, and if he’s going to pretend “but I’m a baby now,” he can choose to crawl to the bathroom instead of walking, I don’t care, but stalling isn’t the option, he has to keep his word, even at age 2.

Practically all my well meaning friends avoid teaching consequences due to being afraid their kid won’t like/love them, or due to accidental parenting and reward non-desired behavior (instead of having them calm down, use a normal voice, and make it a polite request), or seeing children who are cherished but never told, “I expect more from you.”

I wanted to bring some more depth to this coddling and parenting topic, it’s so complex. And I appreciate this aspect being brought up in a transcript, especially in the context of how to raise an “aware” individual in such a damaged and manipulated society (in particular in the States where we live).

This is also another huge topic I’ve been chewing on too. I’ve had my eyes open from a young age, but through pain & trauma, and I would like some feedback as to how to not raise ignorant sheltered children. Again, a backgrounder: I never thought in a million years that I’d have any middle class privileges in my life, but there’s no denying it now. I got a hefty raise last year that allowed us to buy a house and afford daycare. We bought a modest duplex in an urban and racially/ethnically mixed working class neighborhood. Again, along with privilege comes a need to create the opportunities for seeing what this reality IS.

It’s in my nature to be honest and open, and I’ve been that way with my son. Here are some examples (most of which I’ve gleaned from this forum over the years), such as pointing out to him that “nice” is a learned attribute and does not automatically award trust; that some societal rules really are just b.s. and that we have to play along even when we don’t agree; allowing him to trust his gut with people we come across (even though the old lady was sweet as pie, he thought she was creepy and I respected his insight and used it as a springboard for discussion in private); and teaching him “knowledge protects” through small situations, like that Mice of Gloucester Mother Goose thing, the mice knew the cat was lying about wanting to cut their threads for them, so they barred their door but were civil none the less…. But these are baby-steps, and I feel daunted by the future.

Tell me, am I reacting to baggage about privilege instead of asking myself what it means to thrive in this life? What is conscious suffering if there are challenges but no anguish… if life is rich by allowing deep feeling with burning, does the child still learn to thrive and sense beauty… and soul development???
 

1984

SuperModerator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Hello HifromGrace – You mention that both you and your husband had difficult and challenging childhoods. Have you had a chance to read any of the Narcissism "Big Five" from the Recommended Reading List?

Myth of Sanity - Martha Stout
The Narcissistic Family - Stephanie Donaldson-Pressman and Robert M. Pressman
Trapped in the Mirror - Elan Golomb
Unholy Hungers - Barbara E. Hort
In Sheep's Clothing - George K. Simon
 

RyanX

The Living Force
HifromGrace said:
We’ve both had difficult and challenging childhoods, grew up poor and abused. And it’s made us very cognizant of treating our child(ren) with dignity, compassion and respect – no easy task if it’s never been modeled for you.
HifromGrace said:
On nights that he’s trying to manipulate us to “come sleep with me,” by whining, lying, begging, or screaming we call him on the carpet about his behaviour and enforce the rules of no talking or getting out of bed or else we close & lock the door – which he typically disagrees with by a bit of screaming, but we’ve always explained that it’s a clearly articulated rule and a consequence of his own actions that he’s responsible for controlling.
Hi HifromGrace,

I just wanted to point this out from your post because it might be hard to see this situation through a child's eyes. I agree, there have to be boundaries that are drawn in the parent/child relationship. You don't want to get in the habit of reinforcing negative behavior, but at the same time the punishment should be appropriate and not done in a traumatic way. With my children we would use time-outs, but the would sit in the hallway or in a quiet room. They always had visual access to me at all times during these time-outs which usually only lasted a couple minutes at most.

To a small child, having the adults that he loves put him in the room and lock the door can be pretty traumatic, I think. All he sees is the ones he love put him in the room and make it so he can't get out, imprisoning him. Those walls and the door probably look really big to him and he's too young to understand time so he doesn't know when it will end.

I only point this out because I was about the same age as your son when my Mom would take me to a sitter. This sitter and her older son would occasionally lock me in her son's bedroom. I would scream for what felt like hours, when in actuality it was probably only minutes. I remember time feeling different during these times and I'm guessing I probably disassociated. I was traumatized from the event and it really caused a lot of emotional pain for me. Of course I can rationalize the situation now and realize that my Mom didn't know about this and that she wasn't a bad person for taking me to this sitter, it still left a powerful impression on me. So, sometimes what adults don't see as abuse can easily be viewed that way through the eyes of a small child. They are too young at three years to understand total isolation.

1984 mentioned the Big 5 psychology books. I highly recommend these as well.
 
1984 said:
Hello HifromGrace – You mention that both you and your husband had difficult and challenging childhoods. Have you had a chance to read any of the Narcissism "Big Five" from the Recommended Reading List?

Myth of Sanity - Martha Stout
The Narcissistic Family - Stephanie Donaldson-Pressman and Robert M. Pressman
Trapped in the Mirror - Elan Golomb
Unholy Hungers - Barbara E. Hort
In Sheep's Clothing - George K. Simon
Yes, yet thank you for the recommendations! I loved the books and they were very pivotal in transforming my life (as this site has been in general) - I can't even describe how I used to feel life before understanding how I was being manipulated and used... obsessively thinking only about what I did wrong or how I could change myself in order to fix the situation or please a parent... constant fear, anxiety and depression. I thank my lucky stars that it all seems like the distant past now, and I can't relate to being the person that I used to be. Within this category I also found The Drama of the Gifted Child (by Alice Miller) to be useful also. Here's a good description from an anonymous review of the book, "showing very clearly how gifted children are often relegated to that back burner of the family because of their own innate self-sufficiency, she paints a vivid picture of unconscious, conditioned manipulation and a common lack of emotional maturity in the part of the parents. The child is essentially denied a self of its own, as the needs of the parent are always paramount."
 
RyanX said:
HifromGrace said:
On nights that he’s trying to manipulate us to “come sleep with me,” by whining, lying, begging, or screaming we call him on the carpet about his behaviour and enforce the rules of no talking or getting out of bed or else we close & lock the door – which he typically disagrees with by a bit of screaming, but we’ve always explained that it’s a clearly articulated rule and a consequence of his own actions that he’s responsible for controlling.
RyanX said:
HifromGrace said:
We’ve both had difficult and challenging childhoods, grew up poor and abused. And it’s made us very cognizant of treating our child(ren) with dignity, compassion and respect – no easy task if it’s never been modeled for you.
HifromGrace said:
On nights that he’s trying to manipulate us to “come sleep with me,” by whining, lying, begging, or screaming we call him on the carpet about his behaviour and enforce the rules of no talking or getting out of bed or else we close & lock the door – which he typically disagrees with by a bit of screaming, but we’ve always explained that it’s a clearly articulated rule and a consequence of his own actions that he’s responsible for controlling.
Hi HifromGrace,

I just wanted to point this out from your post because it might be hard to see this situation through a child's eyes. I agree, there have to be boundaries that are drawn in the parent/child relationship. You don't want to get in the habit of reinforcing negative behavior, but at the same time the punishment should be appropriate and not done in a traumatic way. With my children we would use time-outs, but the would sit in the hallway or in a quiet room. They always had visual access to me at all times during these time-outs which usually only lasted a couple minutes at most.

To a small child, having the adults that he loves put him in the room and lock the door can be pretty traumatic, I think. All he sees is the ones he love put him in the room and make it so he can't get out, imprisoning him. Those walls and the door probably look really big to him and he's too young to understand time so he doesn't know when it will end.

I only point this out because I was about the same age as your son when my Mom would take me to a sitter. This sitter and her older son would occasionally lock me in her son's bedroom. I would scream for what felt like hours, when in actuality it was probably only minutes. I remember time feeling different during these times and I'm guessing I probably disassociated. I was traumatized from the event and it really caused a lot of emotional pain for me. Of course I can rationalize the situation now and realize that my Mom didn't know about this and that she wasn't a bad person for taking me to this sitter, it still left a powerful impression on me. So, sometimes what adults don't see as abuse can easily be viewed that way through the eyes of a small child. They are too young at three years to understand total isolation.
I'm really glad you brought this up. It's an incredibly fine line to draw and I can personally relate to what you're saying (I'll elaborate on the above in a minute). Except for me, I was never physically locked up, just utterly ignored and had to sob in hysterics and shake in a corner alone for what seemed like an eternity over a minor and irrational indiscretion - no compassion, if anything, spanked. I have an ability now to be the one that can "love him when he least deserves it" and refuse to leave him alone when he's the one in hysterics (actually, a couple times it's been all three of us) and pushes my touches and compassion away and asks me to leave, more like hits and screams and is mean. But I can't and won't do it (let him "cry it out"), I'll sit with him even for an hour just to be with him until he can get it out of his system, and talk about what did or didn't happen or could be handled better next time, or offer due apologies, or just allow it to be talked about tomorrow if that's what he wants. Man, RyanX, deep deep feelings in the pit of my stomach - mainly empathy and compassion, but with mourning for my youth, wow.

On to the locking the door thing - let me give you the detail. First off, I never ever do it if he's at all in any tender state, if that's the case, then yeah, I do crawl into bed with him and know that it will take an hour or two before he finally stops diddling with my hair (you end up being the entertainment committee when he's overtired, that kid doesn't unrev, he just fights the fatigue), or I also do massage with him or breathing techniques (he LOVES EE by the way, wayyyy cute!! practices the counting with Laura), but I know by now, those usually don't help if he slides into amped mode. What works best then is to just pretend that I'm sleeping.
As I mentioned, I'm really conscientious about the sense of abandonment, I do the time-out thing the same way BTW, he is dramatic about it, so it's a useful, easy and quick process & fix for when it's not an object and I can tell him "do it again and I'll take it away." We've never done the lock door thing in his room, because it is not as familiar of a place to him, plus we don't want a negative association with it since we're gunning to get him in there, plus it will only take two minutes before he realizes that he can just pull out a box of cars to entertain himself with, ha, ha! Why I do it in our room is because without actually locking the door it turned into a belabored "game" of opening it obsessively - which we'd ignore, BUT it would again, take an hour for him to stop, and the child needs a good quantity of sleep. Typically he just squawks for like 2 minutes - if it's ever more, or like I said, I can hear in the tone that there's panic or he's genuinely having a hard time, I open the door and talk about it from the doorway and give him another chance with the door open (or 2 or 3 - it's more about the threat and the process, like how the threat of a time out usually does the trick). But yeah, fine line in terms of what you're rewarding and this one is a dance in compromise about rules and manipulation.
But this also brings in the "cry it out" topic and Ferberizing - can't tell you how many non-parents tout that system! Or parents that brag about "it only took 3 hours of hysterics the first night." I have to admit, it's a challenge not to pass judgement/criticism (as I'm doing right now... I'm working on it!). A part of my understands that the child isn't scarred for life, a part of my does think they are on some level - at least a level of trust has been breached forever if you ask me. But then I'm a survivor and I know it builds character and I know we're paired up with people to learn something, so on my better days I work on reserving judgement. But after being a parent, I cannot comprehend it, or spanking for that matter!! And I'm GLAD I can't comprehend it! (too funny, it's the middle of the night here, and my wee one is squaking, gotta fly!)

Edit: fixed quotes
 

truth seeker

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
HifromGrace said:
But this also brings in the "cry it out" topic and Ferberizing - can't tell you how many non-parents tout that system! Or parents that brag about "it only took 3 hours of hysterics the first night." I have to admit, it's a challenge not to pass judgement/criticism (as I'm doing right now... I'm working on it!). A part of my understands that the child isn't scarred for life, a part of my does think they are on some level - at least a level of trust has been breached forever if you ask me. But then I'm a survivor and I know it builds character and I know we're paired up with people to learn something, so on my better days I work on reserving judgement. But after being a parent, I cannot comprehend it, or spanking for that matter!! And I'm GLAD I can't comprehend it! (too funny, it's the middle of the night here, and my wee one is squaking, gotta fly!)
I agree with you on the Ferber method. I worked for someone who was following this advice. While this may work for some, I have to say I hate it. I think that it does scar the child psychologically and promotes a lack of compassion in the parent. The child I knew that it was practiced on would sometimes scream for hours only to fall asleep from exhaustion. I wouldn't call this sleep because I don't think it was a peaceful rest. Upon waking up, she would continue the crying. The crying lasted much longer than any sleep she was getting so to my mind, I was wondering what's the point? It was also torturous to hear the screams (that's what they were) and not be able to go in and comfort her.

Regarding the locking the door, I think RyanX brought up some very good points. In addition to what he said, I also don't think a young child (even older ones) really understand or care whether or not the door is really locked and in what particular room they're in when they are "locked" in. I think the feeling of abandonment is still there.

This particular method may have become popularized in society via various television shows. The method I used (which may not work for everyone) was to develop a routine so that the child knew what was coming at the end. When it came time for him to sleep, I left the door halfway open which provided some light in the room. This also let him know that if he wanted/needed to come out he could do so but it was firmly understood that he needed to remain in bed (he didn't necessarily have to go to sleep).

One last thing, diet helps immensely. I'm sure that many foods throw off natural sleeping patterns. Many of these wheat products can knock a child out in the middle of the day when they would normally be awake. Then unfortunately, when it comes time to sleep, they're too wired. Just my take.
 

Alana

SuperModerator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Laura said:
Q: (L) Now we have another series of questions, and I don't know if we're going to be able to get through all of them tonight. First question: "What is the optimal age of weaning a child from breast milk?" This is gonna be a loaded question, guys!

A: Depends on what kind of child you want to raise.

Q: (L) Okay, well, that’s a loaded answer! The general theory is that some cultures breast feed their children like three or four years or longer, and that this is taken also from the model of apes and chimpanzees. They breast feed their children, and it seems to suppress mating so that they don't have babies too often and it doesn't hurt their health and so forth.

A: Do you want to raise monkeys?

Q: (L) Well, no!

A: Monkeys also do not have sexual relations for recreation either.

Q: (L) Okay. So, having said all that, are you going to answer the question? What is the optimal age for weaning a child from breast milk?

A: Under optimal conditions, weaning should begin when the child is capable of eating well on his own.

Q: (Andromeda) That makes sense. As soon as they have teeth.

(L) Well, they said when they are able to eat well on their own. Just having teeth doesn't mean that you can necessarily eat well. You have to practice. So, I would say that probably means something like one year or thereabouts. By then, you probably have enough teeth to eat with. I guess it's different for each baby. Whenever that baby has enough teeth and enough practice, that means it's time to wean that baby. But there can probably be a general time frame. Okay, the next question: "How does prolonged breast feeding affect the child's emotional development?"

A: Breast feeding is problematical for all the reasons that you already know. The toxicity of the mother must be considered. The child certainly benefits from the food provided by nature, but again, we ask, what kind of child do you wish to raise?

Q: (L) Well, I think we want to raise children that are capable of soul development. I guess that's what we want to do.

A: Yes? Then you must lay down the foundation and pattern. Let us ask you a question: If you had not had certain traumas, would you have felt so determined to find answers to the suffering of humanity???
Regarding these last comments, i was just reading this sott article
https://www.sott.net/articles/show/206694-Moderate-stress-good-for-foetus-Study said:
Moderate stress good for foetus: Study
Stress is not always bad as commonly believed. Moderate stress during pregnancy boosts foetal brain development, a new study has claimed.

In a study by researchers at Johns Hopkins University in Maryland showed that stress during pregnancy inhibits neural growth.

For the research, the team led by Janet DiPietro examined 112 healthy pregnant women three times during their third trimester and asked them about their stress levels, Child Development journal reported.

They first recorded foetal movements and then examined the babies two weeks after birth. Their observation showed that women who reported higher stress levels during pregnancy had babies that moved around more in the womb.

After birth, these babies scored higher on a brain maturation test, although they were more irritable. More active foetuses had better control of body movements after birth.
 

anart

The Living Force
Alana said:
Regarding these last comments, i was just reading this sott article
https://www.sott.net/articles/show/206694-Moderate-stress-good-for-foetus-Study said:
Moderate stress good for foetus: Study
Stress is not always bad as commonly believed. Moderate stress during pregnancy boosts foetal brain development, a new study has claimed.

In a study by researchers at Johns Hopkins University in Maryland showed that stress during pregnancy inhibits neural growth.

For the research, the team led by Janet DiPietro examined 112 healthy pregnant women three times during their third trimester and asked them about their stress levels, Child Development journal reported.

They first recorded foetal movements and then examined the babies two weeks after birth. Their observation showed that women who reported higher stress levels during pregnancy had babies that moved around more in the womb.

After birth, these babies scored higher on a brain maturation test, although they were more irritable. More active foetuses had better control of body movements after birth.
More proof that, in this reality, human beings learn through suffering (not that we needed any more proof...)?

Oh, for the day when we, collectively, learn through joy.
 

Bluebird

The Force is Strong With This One
Q: (L) Well, I think we want to raise children that are capable of soul development. I guess that's what we want to do.

A: Yes? Then you must lay down the foundation and pattern. Let us ask you a question: If you had not had certain traumas, would you have felt so determined to find answers to the suffering of humanity???

Q: (L) No, I guess if I'd had a perfect childhood and if everything had been perfect and nice, I guess I would have been a potato. [laughter] I guess I would have been a monkey!

A: Yes.
I remember learning somewhere recently of a reading by Edgar Cayce for the parents of a young man who had died suddenly in an accident. They were particularly distraught as years earlier they had received another reading which predicted a bright and successful career for their son. The reading explained that as a child the youngster had got into various forms of trouble where the parents had repeatedly stepped in and mitigated the outcomes, they were particularly motivated in doing this believing their son had an important destiny. The reading explained that owing to being wrapped in cotton wool so to speak, the child had been unable to learn important lessons and meet difficult circumstances which were intended to develop character and determination and so had arrived in adulthood without the necessary preparation for the challenges to come. The result was that the soul departed early from this life much to the sadness of his parents.

I guess when parents love their children it is so difficult to step back and let them experience lifes lessons but it seems it is necessary to be able to do so.
 
truth seeker said:
One last thing, diet helps immensely. I'm sure that many foods throw off natural sleeping patterns. Many of these wheat products can knock a child out in the middle of the day when they would normally be awake. Then unfortunately, when it comes time to sleep, they're too wired. Just my take.
Hey Truth Seeker - let me pick your brains about this one. I just did a site search and it will take me a couple days to wade through the insights and experiences. That being said, I'm rather educated as a lay-nutritionist (by the Weston Price & Nourishing Traditions standard, took me YEARS to untangle the marketing version of "nutrition"). And we do have a rather clean diet - free of all packet "foods," pesticides, sugar, soy, colors & additives, and rarely eat g.m.o. or corn or non-sprouted breads. My understanding has been that the allergic reaction to wheat products (evidently the sprouted too, from what I just saw in the search) is primarily a broad inflammation chain-reaction more so than mood and energy (like colors, preservatives & additives do). What is your insight on this please?

On the flip side of the restless falling asleep thing - genetically my son gets that from me. I envy people like my husband and mother who can start snoring within 10 seconds of hitting the pillow! And I'm the one with the cleanest diet of them all! - BUT still am eager and open for further insights, or other peoples experiences.
 

vinny

The Living Force
HifromGrace said:
Hey Truth Seeker - let me pick your brains about this one. I just did a site search and it will take me a couple days to wade through the insights and experiences. That being said, I'm rather educated as a lay-nutritionist (by the Weston Price & Nourishing Traditions standard, took me YEARS to untangle the marketing version of "nutrition"). And we do have a rather clean diet - free of all packet "foods," pesticides, sugar, soy, colors & additives, and rarely eat g.m.o. or corn or non-sprouted breads. My understanding has been that the allergic reaction to wheat products (evidently the sprouted too, from what I just saw in the search) is primarily a broad inflammation chain-reaction more so than mood and energy (like colors, preservatives & additives do). What is your insight on this please?
you might find these articles interesting:

The Dark Side of Wheat - New Perspectives on Celiac Disease and Wheat Intolerance

Opening Pandora's Bread Box: The Critical Role of Wheat Lectin in Human Disease
 

truth seeker

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Thanks Nomad.

HifromGrace said:
What is your insight on this please?
In addition to the information here, I can only give you my own personal experience. I'm one of those people who does not perceive any allergic reaction to any food I eat, but this doesn't mean that nothing isn't going on. I do notice that whenever I eat wheat products (primarily pasta and bread) within a half an hour, I feel like I have to lay down. As if I'm drugged.

This reaction intensified when I was off wheat a few weeks and then ate one meal that included it. Directly after the meal, I was incapacitated. I laid down for what I thought would be an hour and didn't wake up until four hours later!

Writing this post reminded me of how that one reaction is normalized in American society. Many times, people will make jokes about how they ate a meal and now have to have a nap. In my opinion, food shouldn't make you feel that way. It should really be the opposite. Like when I eat organic food, I feel energized. I think this is what the normal reaction should be for what it's worth.

edit: Oh and also, for sleeping, if you haven't tried it yet the EE program works wonders for that! I also used to have trouble sleeping and that really helped.
 
What a great community, thank you for the posts!

Truth Seeker - THANK YOU for the EE reminder, just like everyone else I fall off the wagon when life gets in the way and need a gentle reminder of the OBVIOUS!

Also from Truth Seeker:
In addition to the information here, I can only give you my own personal experience. I'm one of those people who does not perceive any allergic reaction to any food I eat, but this doesn't mean that nothing isn't going on. I do notice that whenever I eat wheat products (primarily pasta and bread) within a half an hour, I feel like I have to lay down. As if I'm drugged.

This reaction intensified when I was off wheat a few weeks and then ate one meal that included it. Directly after the meal, I was incapacitated. I laid down for what I thought would be an hour and didn't wake up until four hours later!

Writing this post reminded me of how that one reaction is normalized in American society. Many times, people will make jokes about how they ate a meal and now have to have a nap. In my opinion, food shouldn't make you feel that way. It should really be the opposite. Like when I eat organic food, I feel energized. I think this is what the normal reaction should be for what it's worth.
I have a something like that with corn tortilla chips, even organic, which I’m assuming is still gmo - within 20 minutes I get very bloated and in a real sour mood. I joke with my husband that now I’m justified in just licking the “cheese” off of the Doritos (I’m trying to make a joke, but I’ll admit that on occasion it’s not beneath me!). My body’s reaction is positive reinforcement to avoid the product if you ask me! People think I'm crazy and hyper sensitive, but I agree with you, you need to pay attention, food is supposed to uplift you, not lull you. I'm looking forward to reading Nomad's links (thank you).

To further this topic and add to dugdeep's conversation:

From dugdeep

Quote from: truth seeker on April 08, 2010, 03:31:13 AM
Absolutely! I would even take it a step further and say that it's probably happening in things that don't seem like movements such as vegetarianism vs the general public, child rearing and smoking. Basically any issue where there are at two major opposing viewpoints, just to add to the confusion. But

Vegetarianism... now that makes a lot of sense. I never thought about this before, but I have often wondered why the vegetarian "movement" seemed to derail from promoting natural healthy foods to taking on processed soy foods, fake meats and sugary processed snacks. Many vegetarians are so strongly identified with soy they honestly believe vegetarianism can't exist without it. I've written pieces detailing the dangers of processed soy foods in the past and got flooded with hundreds of comments from angry vegetarians accusing me of working for the meat industry (as if the meat industry is actually threatened by the soy industry - without soy what would they feed their factory farmed animals?). I had thought it was just extremely effective marketing from the soy board that so thoroughly convinced vegetarians they need soy foods that it has become part of their identity, but the idea that they have actually been infiltrated seems likely. It's sick and twisted, but it makes sense.
I'm with you about the sacred cow within vegetarian circles about soy being the pinnacle of health (including any and all of those “health bars” and “burgers”). I'm at a loss as to how to communicate with them/friends/family (and I've been a vegetarian for 20+ years who's attempting to include meat, but years of indoctrinated ick-factor are a serious challenge to overcome - I am able to sneak my homemade bone broths into everything and eat fish now, but no matter how I understand this intellectually - emotionally, "I just can't go there”… yet!)

Along the lines of Toxic Waste is Good for You (a quick and easy read) regarding the history and evils of Marketing - I'm going to insert an article by Sally Fallon & Mary Enig, “The Great Con-ola,” which I'm sure you're familiar with dugdeep, but it stands repeating, and I didn't see it included in any health/canola topic. But as an introduction, first from a board "Soy is VERY dangerous":

http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=6282.msg43190#msg43190

Within Reply 2 by Ailen


EAT FRANKENFOOD OR GO HUNGRY

Thomas Smith
July 6, 2003
NewsWithViews.com


...The US has regulations in place to conceal the fact of GM contaminated food in the American grocery store. The idea is to prevent Americans from being able to choose whether or not they want to eat it.

A step back to take a harder look at soy products in general

Those of you who have been following my work exposing our criminal epidemic of diabetes already have a built in protection against this wholesale food chain fraud being perpetrated by the American corporate-government complex. Ask any American about the dangers of saturated fat and he will quickly parrot "saturated fat is bad- it causes heart attacks". This widespread and totally false belief is the result of a massive marketing campaign in America to replace good beneficial fats and oils that we once had with these cheap junk oils. The idea was to greatly increase the profit margin of processed food by using worthless oils instead of beneficial healthy oils. Noteworthy among these junk oils that were successfully introduced into our food chain by this deception is soy oil. An immediate consequence of this marketing success has been the explosive increase in degenerative disease including obesity and diabetes.

At one point, a few years ago, soy oil, cottonseed oil and rape seed oil (canola) among others, were considered inedible. They were not fit even to use as animal feed let alone human. A massive marketing campaign was launched against healthy beneficial oils here in America. The result was a huge gain in acceptance for cheap worthless food products that up to then had no market. Another result was the stigmatizing and removal from the marketplace of the more expensive beneficial oils, such as coconut oil, we had always depended upon. The idea was, and is, that soy is easy to grow and, if widespread market acceptance could be manufactured, the use of soy in processed food could be made to produce immense profits.
....
https://wwwdotwestonaprice.org/The-Great-Con-ola.html
The Great Con-ola
Health Topics - Know Your Fats
Written by Sally Fallon and Mary G. Enig, PhD
Sunday, 28 July 2002 16:49

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Canola oil is "widely recognized as the healthiest salad and cooking oil available to consumers." It was developed through hybridization of rape seed. Rape seed oil is toxic because it contains significant amounts of a poisonous substance called erucic acid. Canola oil contains only trace amounts of erucic acid and its unique fatty acid profile, rich in oleic acid and low in saturated fats, makes it particularly beneficial for the prevention of heart disease. It also contains significant amounts of omega-3 fatty acids, also shown to have health benefits. This is what the food industry says about canola oil.

Canola oil is a poisonous substance, an industrial oil that does not belong in the body. It contains "the infamous chemical warfare agent mustard gas," hemagglutinins and toxic cyanide-containing glycocides; it causes mad cow disease, blindness, nervous disorders, clumping of blood cells and depression of the immune system. This is what detractors say about canola oil.

How is the consumer to sort out the conflicting claims about canola oil? Is canola oil a dream come true or a deadly poison? And why has canola captured so large a share of the oils used in processed foods?

HIDDEN HISTORY
Let's start with some history. The time period is the mid-1980s and the food industry has a problem. In collusion with the American Heart Association, numerous government agencies and departments of nutrition at major universities, the industry had been promoting polyunsaturated oils as a heart-healthy alternative to "artery-clogging" saturated fats. Unfortunately, it had become increasingly clear that polyunsaturated oils, particularly corn oil and soybean oil, cause numerous health problems, including and especially cancer.1

The industry was in a bind. It could not continue using large amounts of liquid polyunsaturated oils and make health claims about them in the face of mounting evidence of their dangers. Nor could manufacturers return to using traditional healthy saturates--butter, lard, tallow, palm oil and coconut oil--without causing an uproar. Besides, these fats cost too much for the cut-throat profit margins in the industry.

The solution was to embrace the use of monounsaturated oils, such as olive oil. Studies had shown that olive oil has a "better" effect than polyunsaturated oils on cholesterol levels and other blood parameters. Besides, Ancel Keys and other promoters of the diet-heart idea had popularized the notion that the Mediterranean diet--rich in olive oil and conjuring up images of a carefree existence on sun-drenched islands--protected against heart disease and ensured a long and healthy life.

The National Heart, Lung and Blood Institute (NHLBI) sponsored the First Colloquium on Monounsaturates in Philadelphia. The meeting was chaired by Scott Grundy, a prolific writer and apologist for the notion that cholesterol and animal fats cause heart disease. Representatives from the edible oil industry, including Unilever, were in attendance. The Second Colloquium on Monounsaturates took place in Bethesda, Maryland, early in 1987. Dr. Grundy was joined by Claude Lenfant, head of the NHLBI, and speakers included Fred Mattson, who had spent many years at Proctor and Gamble, and the Dutch scientist Martign Katan, who would later publish research on the problems with trans fatty acids. It was at this time that articles extolling the virtues of olive oil began to appear in the popular press.

Promotion of olive oil, which had a long history of use, seemed more scientifically sound to the health-conscious consumer than the promotion of corn and soy oil, which could only be extracted with modern stainless steel presses. The problem for the industry was that there was not enough olive oil in the world to meet its needs. And, like butter and other traditional fats, olive oil was too expensive to use in most processed foods. The industry needed a less expensive monounsaturated oil.

Rapeseed oil was a monounsaturated oil that had been used extensively in many parts of the world, notably in China, Japan and India. It contains almost 60 percent monounsaturated fatty acids (compared to about 70 percent in olive oil). Unfortunately, about two-thirds of the mono-unsaturated fatty acids in rapeseed oil are erucic acid, a 22-carbon monounsaturated fatty acid that had been associated with Keshan's disease, characterized by fibrotic lesions of the heart. In the late 1970s, using a technique of genetic manipulation involving seed splitting,2 Canadian plant breeders came up with a variety of rapeseed that produced a monounsaturated oil low in 22-carbon erucic acid and high in 18-carbon oleic acid.

The new oil referred to as LEAR oil, for Low Erucic Acid Rapeseed, was slow to catch on in the US. In 1986, Cargill announced the sale of LEAR oil seed to US farmers and provided LEAR oil processing at its Riverside, North Dakota plant but prices dropped and farmers took a hit.3

MARKETING LEAR
Before LEAR oil could be promoted as a healthy alternative to polyunsaturated oils, it needed a new name. Neither "rape" nor "lear" could be expected to invoke a healthy image for the new "Cinderella" crop. In 1978, the industry settled on "canola," for "Canadian oil," since most of the new rapeseed at that time was grown in Canada. "Canola" also sounded like "can do" and "payola," both positive phrases in marketing lingo. However, the new name did not come into widespread use until the early 1990s.

An initial challenge for the Canola Council of Canada was the fact that rapeseed was never given GRAS (Generally Recognized as Safe) status by the US Food and Drug Administration. A change in regulation would be necessary before canola could be marketed in the US.4 Just how this was done has not been revealed, but GRAS status was granted in 1985, for which, it is rumored, the Canadian government spent $50 million to obtain.

Since canola was aimed at the growing numbers of health-conscious consumers, rather than the junk food market, it required more subtle marketing techniques than television advertising. The industry had managed to manipulate the science to make a perfect match with canola oil--very low in saturated fat and rich in monounsaturates. In addition, canola oil contains about 10 percent omega-3 fatty acids, the most recent discovery of establishment nutritionists. Most Americans are deficient in omega-3 fatty acids, which had been shown to be beneficial to the heart and immune system. The challenge was to market this dream-come-true fatty acid profile in a way that would appeal to educated consumers.
Canola oil began to appear in the recipes of cutting edge health books, such as those by Andrew Weil and Barry Sears. The technique was to extol the virtues of the Mediterranean diet and olive oil in the text, and then call for "olive oil or canola oil" in the recipes. One informant in the publishing industry told us that since the mid 1990s, major publishers would not accept cookbooks unless they included canola in the recipes.

In 1997, Harper Collins engaged Dr. Artemis Simopoulos to write a cookbook featuring the health benefits of omega-3 fatty acids.5 Dr. Simopoulos was a pediatrician who had served for nine years as chair of the Nutritional Coordinating Committee of the National Institutes of Health before becoming president of the Center for Genetics, Nutrition and Health. She had published several papers on omega-3 fatty acids, calling attention to their disappearance from the food supply due to the industrialization of agriculture. Her most famous paper, published in 1992 in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, compared omega-3 levels in supermarket eggs from hens raised on corn with eggs from hens allowed to roam and eat a more varied diet.6 The more natural eggs contained twenty times more omega-3 than supermarket eggs.

Simopoulos's The Omega Plan came out in 1998 and was reissued as The Omega Diet in 1999. The book discusses the virtues of monounsaturated and omega-3 fatty acids in the Mediterranean diet.7 Since unprocessed canola oil contains not only lots of monoun-saturated fatty acids, but also a significant amount of omega-3, it shows up in most of the book's recipes. Simopoulos claims that the Mediterranean diet is low in saturated fat and recommends lean meat and lowfat yoghurt and milk as part of her regime.

The canola industry's approach-- scientific conferences, promotion to upscale consumers through books like The Omega Diet and articles in the health section of newspapers and magazines--was successful. By the late 1990s, canola use had soared, and not just in the US. Today China, Japan, Europe, Mexico, Bangladesh and Pakistan all buy significant amounts. Canola does well in arid environments such as Australia and the Canadian plains, where it has become a major cash crop. It is the oil of choice in gourmet and health food markets like Fresh Fields (Whole Foods) markets, and shows up in many supermarket items as well. It is a commonly used oil in sterol-containing margarines and spreads recommended for cholesterol lowering. Use of hydrogenated canola oil for frying is increasing, especially in restaurants.

….

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References

1.MG Enig and SW Fallon. The Oiling of America.
2.RK Downey. Genetic Control of Fatty Acid Biosnythesis in Rapeseed. Journal of the American Oil Chemists Society, 1964;41:475-478.
3.Journal of the American Oil Chemists' Society, December 1986;63(12):1510.
4.Canola - a new oilseed from Canada. Journal of the American Oil Chemists' Society, September 1981:723A-9A.
5.The amount of the advance was $350,000. Personal email communication, Jo Robinson, co-author of The Omega Diet.
6.AP Simopoulos and N Salem, Jr. Egg yolk as a source of long-chain polyunsaturated fatty acids in infant feeding. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 1992;55
7.AP Simopoulos and J Robinson. The Omega Plan. Harper Collins Publishers, New York, NY, 1998.

….


About the Authors

Sally Fallon Morell is the author of Nourishing Traditions: The Cookbook that Challenges Politically Correct Nutrition and the Diet Dictocrats (with Mary G. Enig, PhD), a well-researched, thought-provoking guide to traditional foods with a startling message: Animal fats and cholesterol are not villains but vital factors in the diet, necessary for normal growth, proper function of the brain and nervous system, protection from disease and optimum energy levels. She joined forces with Enig again to write Eat Fat, Lose Fat, and has authored numerous articles on the subject of diet and health. The President of the Weston A. Price Foundation and founder of A Campaign for Real Milk, Sally is also a journalist, chef, nutrition researcher, homemaker, and community activist. Her four healthy children were raised on whole foods including butter, cream, eggs and meat.




Mary G. Enig, PhD is an expert of international renown in the field of lipid biochemistry. She has headed a number of studies on the content and effects of trans fatty acids in America and Israel, and has successfully challenged government assertions that dietary animal fat causes cancer and heart disease. Recent scientific and media attention on the possible adverse health effects of trans fatty acids has brought increased attention to her work. She is a licensed nutritionist, certified by the Certification Board for Nutrition Specialists, a qualified expert witness, nutrition consultant to individuals, industry and state and federal governments, contributing editor to a number of scientific publications, Fellow of the American College of Nutrition and President of the Maryland Nutritionists Association. She is the author of over 60 technical papers and presentations, as well as a popular lecturer. Dr. Enig is currently working on the exploratory development of an adjunct therapy for AIDS using complete medium chain saturated fatty acids from whole foods. She is Vice-President of the Weston A Price Foundation and Scientific Editor of Wise Traditions as well as the author of Know Your Fats: The Complete Primer for Understanding the Nutrition of Fats, Oils, and Cholesterol, Bethesda Press, May 2000. She is the mother of three healthy children brought up on whole foods including butter, cream, eggs and meat.
 
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