Show#82 - Who was Georges Gurdjieff? Interview with William Patrick Patterson

[gdpetti]

Very interesting show! Laura, fwiw, G has come to me when I have had some problems needing to get solved as well, though the problems were different. I got the impression that you were embarrassed when talking about that.
[...]
Kris

Interesting, as i thought the potential 'embarrassment' was when he asked about where she was getting her information from, not the G visitations.... His questioning of this i found interesting because one would think when asked to do an interview, that before acceptance, you would check out the nature of the interviewers, the show, et al.... and that doesn't seem to have occurred with this gentleman, and age should increase that tendency to seek background knowledge on the situation, not less, and book promotions shouldn't be an excuse either, unless you are simply looking for sales of any kind to anyone at anytime... such security considerations might be simply my own gut reactions though... and i actually thought when pushed, that L would use it as a test to check his knowledge on the matter of higher dimensional 'assistance' to the seeker... but that didn't happen, and the guys stepped in to parry the situation back to safer shores of thought. ;)

That said, one point I would have to disagree with that factored into my opinion of this issue is both Ra and the C's have said that the process is naturally built into the system and no one needs 'help' to 'evolve' soul development... what a group or network can do is speed up that journey by a large factor depending upon the group and individual in question. A group or network makes better use of the properties of the 'short wave', whereas the journey without one seems to mirror the 'long wave' pattern of development more closely. I thought maybe this individual simply wasn't aware of any other way... as direct methods are extremely rare and are most likely out of his purview... but never having read any of his stuff, that would be out of mine. ;) Which isn't too surprising.

Otherwise, nice interview.

 

[whitecoast]

Naturally, he wasn't comfortable with speaking about hyperdimensional eaters..

I can't understand why.

I do wonder what his opinion would be on the channeling experiment, and if how it is treated and organized can serve as a substitute for a lack of flesh and blood teacher. Didn't Guedjieff at one point also attempt communication with distant cosmic bodies?

 

[Kaigen]

That was great show, towards the end when Laura asked her questions about the hyper dimensional beings, I had to pull over my car and stop on the side. I could hear Laura got very emotional, that was very touchy. Emidiately Joe was taking over, I was feeling very closed to you all.

Thanks again!

Are you channelling Gurjijew? That was astonishing question, regards what was in the session with ceazar.

 

[Gary]

Thanks for a wonderful show! It was lovely to hear Laura and Harrison, joining our usual hosts Joe and Niall. Prior to joining this forum I had never heard of Gurdjieff or the Fourth Way, and I still have much to read on them. Listening to an enthusiastic, very knowledgable, gentleman like Mr Patterson talk about G was a very uplifting experience.

When asked about G's mission, he said "unless the wisdom of the East, and the energy of the West could be harnessed and used harmoniously, the world would be destroyed."

Well, Laura's recent Sott article 'Global Pathocracy, Authoritarian Followers and the Hope of the World' really shows how rather than seeking harmony, the psychopathic Western leaders are desperate for provocation and war instead. Sure looks like we are at a fundamental 'tipping point' now in the history of our civilization!

Fwiw, regarding other comments made about Laura's "embarrassment" with the elderly (77) guest, my impression was that she was being externally considerate, and hospitable.

Great show, thanks again :)

 

[H-KQGE]

Very interesting show! Laura, fwiw, G has come to me when I have had some problems needing to get solved as well, though the problems were different. I got the impression that you were embarrassed when talking about that.
[...]
Kris

Interesting, as i thought the potential 'embarrassment' was when he asked about where she was getting her information from, not the G visitations.... His questioning of this i found interesting because one would think when asked to do an interview, that before acceptance, you would check out the nature of the interviewers, the show, et al.... and that doesn't seem to have occurred with this gentleman, and age should increase that tendency to seek background knowledge on the situation, not less, and book promotions shouldn't be an excuse either, unless you are simply looking for sales of any kind to anyone at anytime... such security considerations might be simply my own gut reactions though... and i actually thought when pushed, that L would use it as a test to check his knowledge on the matter of higher dimensional 'assistance' to the seeker... but that didn't happen, and the guys stepped in to parry the situation back to safer shores of thought. ;)

I was thinking the same about that. I haven't listened to all the radio shows but it seems that virtually no guest, apart from a handful, has actually looked into Laura's work, the forum networking, research analysis & discussions. Call me naive but I've always had this idea that those who are co-linear or approaching it would find this site & explore the contents, accelerating their own growth of knowledge & team up. I'm sure that one of the older sessions stated that something like this could happen. The C's may have meant the "distant future" though so I'm not sure. I have no idea when that session was either, the idea stuck in my mind nonetheless.

Laura probably WAS being externally considerate, I didn't think she was embarrassed; my initial reaction was that she pondered a suitable explanation then thought better of it. It could've been a "can of worms" situation & was probably better to leave a decent impression on him. But my feeling on his "angels" remark did make me question if he was sort of "stuck" at a particular juncture of The Work, kinda like many writers that almost grok the situation that our species face.... but are lacking the knowledge/awareness of psychopathy. Maybe since Laura didn't reveal the higher help she received he didn't think to, or feel comfortable to explain anything he may have known about the specifics of a higher world that he's aware of. There's a quote (maybe from one of "The Wave" books) about a scientist understanding the mathematics of a possible existence of a realm beyond ours but not able to bridge the gap of beings err.. being "operators of things." Something to do with Kaluza-Klein or Einstein maybe. If it were a different guest I think she might've probed them to see what they knew (of course we're talking about hyperdimensional denizens here, but the same probing could apply on another subject) but with respect to his age, his knowledge of G & Casteneda, I think she was being respectful. I'm not that good reading the nuances within a voice but at that point she sounded somewhat emotional, that's what came through to my limited view.

Also just to say that Patterson thoroughly dissected Castenada in "The Life & Teachings of Carlos Casteneda", exposing a lot of his "spellbinding narcissism" with his "Nagual witches" & Amy Wallace's account along with the aforementioned book above, shows Carlos in a way he would not have been pleased with. There's many accounts of what he was like, interviews & letters (a back & forth with R.Gordon Wasson an ethnobotanist) Richard D. Mille etc, others around him claiming that he attended public Gurdjieff gatherings & he even admitted that he was aware of G's work. Of course the similarities with G's work, Ouspensky's "On the Study of Dreams" & "Experimental Mysticism" the "eight pointed diagram" (will connected to feeling, "dreaming", "seeing", reason & talk) which is basically the enneagram - introduced by G in Russia & first appearing in ISOTM in 1949 - & of course, Mircea Eliade's work indicate that the sorceric twist Carlos used was to obscure the origins of his writings. And the whole witch thing seems to have originated with G's "women of the rope." http://www.gurdjieff.org/rope.htm (see Patterson's book "ladies of the rope")

Thinking more about Patterson's response I'm not sure that he really "gets" the general law acting against his publishing of his book & the "angels" thing, as that would indicate that "angels" at that level (he acknowledged this) would be the hyperdimensional beings "eating" what they can. Wasn't this around the time his health deteriorated further? I hope I'm not coming across as uncaring with these comments (beginning of the post & here) as I've just read them back. (and I absolutely do not grok all of The Work it's literally the hardest thing to do in one's life IMO) I can understand situations & views where some of the things I pondered at the top of this post can & do occur, that part of the show was just the standout part which immediately threw up some questions. I enjoyed the show... and thanks!

 

[Laura]

Just a little note here: I'm quite adept at playing "blonde" when it suits me or the occasion. I have no need to be "right" when it is a waste of energy. Nuff said.

 

[hesperides]

For my part, after listening this show again, I was rather caught in some kind of unease at how William Patrick unexpectedly started to make very personal questions and assumptions based on Laura´s comments near the end of the show. It seems to me like WP made the assumption that Laura was unwittingly more interested in historical data, or even trapped in her research, just because she was extremely cautious, as usually, at selecting her questions and comments without landing with both feet right in the heart of the topic. Which I find quite clever when one doesn´t know the guest, at least personally. Further on, the listeners of the show don´t have to be aware either of all the topics discussed there.

What he seemed to be implying at the end of the show was that Laura´s Gurdjieff channeling in her dreams and study of ancient history is a case of a shy woman who in her humbleness (because WP said Laura sounded very sincere to him) is missled into thinking she still needs to relay on any given Teacher. Or was he just pressing her own buttons, even during a life broadcast? Well, heck, I wouldn´t know how to handle this situation on air without falling in the trap of defending myself in some way, jeeze!

Maybe WP has been focusing on the esoteric teaching solely from the 4th way actual perspective, which from my own experience with esoteric groups means that one is more or wholly absorbed in working on one´s machine, but without gathering knowledge at a general historical, political, psychological level, aside from so many other fields. That´s just an assumption anyway since I only watched his video and will have to read his latest book at least, which imo isn´t very cheap seeing the times we are living through, by the way.

Note: I´ve just read your post above, Laura. Good to know although I figured it!

 

[Approaching Infinity]

For my part, after listening this show again, I was rather caught in some kind of unease at how William Patrick unexpectedly started to make very personal questions and assumptions based on Laura´s comments near the end of the show. It seems to me like WP made the assumption that Laura was unwittingly more interested in historical data, or even trapped in her research, just because she was extremely cautious, as usually, at selecting her questions and comments without landing with both feet right in the heart of the topic. Which I find quite clever when one doesn´t know the guest, at least personally. Further on, the listeners of the show don´t have to be aware either of all the topics discussed there.

What he seemed to be implying at the end of the show was that Laura´s Gurdjieff channeling in her dreams and study of ancient history is a case of a shy woman who in her humbleness (because WP said Laura sounded very sincere to him) is missled into thinking she still needs to relay on any given Teacher. Or was he just pressing her own buttons, even during a life broadcast? Well, heck, I wouldn´t know how to handle this situation on air without falling in the trap of defending myself in some way, jeeze!

Maybe WP has been focusing on the esoteric teaching solely from the 4th way actual perspective, which from my own experience with esoteric groups means that one is more or wholly absorbed in working on one´s machine, but without gathering knowledge at a general historical, political, psychological level, aside from so many other fields. That´s just an assumption anyway since I only watched his video and will have to read his latest book at least, which imo isn´t very cheap seeing the times we are living through, by the way.

Note: I´ve just read your post above, Laura. Good to know although I figured it!

It's pretty common among people in Gurdjieff groups to think that doing the Work is only possible through a teacher (which is what G said, after all), but for them, that means being a member of a Gurdjieff group, i.e., through the 'transmission' of the teaching from Gurdjieff to his students, who became teachers of more students.

 

[ianvr]

Very interesting show! Thank you!

Ended very abruptly which was strange and I could hear even William was surprised about it being ended.

Was hoping to hear more about other Gurdjeff books like Beelzebub's Tales to his grandson. Perhaps William's latest book will allude to this and more about rest of his life.

 

[hlat]

My impression of his quick answer of angels is that he appears to know of hyperdimensional beings and would've spoken more about the topic if asked. I don't think he meant it in the mainstream Christian sense either, since I thought he previously responded that Gurdjieff's source of knowledge was esoteric Christianity. When he suggested channeling Gurdjieff and that Gurdjieff is immortal within the solar system and an interdimensional being, it didn't sound to me like he was joking. Perhaps if he was interviewed again, he could be asked about Gurdjieff viewing distant cosmic centers through a medium, and that may prompt him to talk more on it.

 

[Voyageur]

Thought it was a very respectful interview by all participants. The discourse on "Egypt" different than the one known and the Greek teachers going back beyond the stoic, Diogenes, was interesting in the part that it may have come to play in G's overall teachings.

I hope Patrick comes to feel better heath. Thank you SoTT Talk for the interview.

Very interesting show! Thank you!

Ended very abruptly which was strange and I could hear even William was surprised about it being ended.

Was hoping to hear more about other Gurdjeff books like Beelzebub's Tales to his grandson. Perhaps William's latest book will allude to this and more about rest of his life.

Think it will be good to review his book, too.

As for the show ending, I was not surprised. My impression was that Laura sensed, as said earlier in the thread, that Patrick was tired. You could hear it in his voice and he was asked some good questions from studied people. So in this way, ending the interview as such, perhaps was a generous courtesy, osit.

 

[hesperides]

Quote from: Approaching Infinity

It's pretty common among people in Gurdjieff groups to think that doing the Work is only possible through a teacher (which is what G said, after all), but for them, that means being a member of a Gurdjieff group, i.e., through the 'transmission' of the teaching from Gurdjieff to his students, who became teachers of more students.

Then, I didn´t grab well his intention when questioning Laura about who she was channeling and whether she was teaching herself. After thinking a while on what you are saying, that makes much more sense, because at one point at the beginning he actually said nobody can awaken without a teacher.

I find it curious how esoteric groups omit or at least don´t seem to question the fact there are ongoing subdivisions and divisions occurring in most if not in all of them. Teachers and instructors could be certainly necessary at one point, but from my experience what happens with students in those teachings nowadays is they can´t even know what being sincere with themselves means and instead of leaving the organization and follow their path , they will struggle with self-observation and self-remembering until they get some kind of experience, which will further create some nefarious psychologic dependency. Other students because of abstract or magical ideas about the spiritual world will hang on these studies and still others, maybe the majority, will fall into identifying with their own teacher or the teaching itself. Also add those who feel alone or bored and grasp this opportunity to feel being part of a family.

Creating OPEN discussions, like we all do here, in such a mixed aiming crowd is actually a giant task and that´s precisely why a fluent exchange of energy amongst the group being part of the learning process can´t be applied in "ordinary" teaching classes.

In fact, watching the students in the video who were asking questions (presuming they are WP´ students), I was instantly remembering by their somewhat crippled or extremely correct way in shaping their questions, and frozen gaze (I think because of the effort exerted on self remembering!) of what I´ve been going through myself and others in my own group.

As I said, I want to read WP´s book(s) as he seems to show himself as a well informed person in his field.

 

[luc]

Thank you for the very interesting show. Really enjoyed the insights of Mr. Patterson and also the slightly "controversial" parts of the interview.

One thing I found interesting is that Laura mentioned that the Sott Talk Radio Show is a result of the group's "Work". I thought about this specific example before a couple of times and I wholeheartedly agree: You decided to do this show, make it an AIM, do it right, do it every week... not just when you feel like it or you think you have a good guest - but every damn week, with great guests. It's an enormous task and commitment and to me an expression of an advanced level of being. This is Work and this is Doing, with a specific purpose, osit. Thanks again everyone.

 

[whitecoast]

[quote author=AI]It's pretty common among people in Gurdjieff groups to think that doing the Work is only possible through a teacher (which is what G said, after all), but for them, that means being a member of a Gurdjieff group, i.e., through the 'transmission' of the teaching from Gurdjieff to his students, who became teachers of more students.[/quote]

Gurdjieff also said that a teaching dies with its teacher if someone is not placed on the rung in the ladder behind him (which was certainly the case for G). What does that say about the numerous allegedly fourth way schools around the west?

Gurdjieff spoke of a society of learned beings called the Society of Akhldanns in Beelzebub's Tales. As far as I know there were all just ordinary people who investigated and networked about worldwide phenomena, learned of coming catastrophes, and set to work on emigrating and protecting themselves. Their descendants formed the basis for various lineages of teachings. If you NEED a flesh-and-blood master to teach you things, you get into an infinite regression fallacy, OSIT. In this way I think all these lineages are depending on some independent arising of the scientific-creative spirit ordinary people who network. I think QFG is a modern Akhldann Society, in a sense.

 

[Psalehesost]

[quote author=AI]It's pretty common among people in Gurdjieff groups to think that doing the Work is only possible through a teacher (which is what G said, after all), but for them, that means being a member of a Gurdjieff group, i.e., through the 'transmission' of the teaching from Gurdjieff to his students, who became teachers of more students.

Gurdjieff also said that a teaching dies with its teacher if someone is not placed on the rung in the ladder behind him (which was certainly the case for G). What does that say about the numerous allegedly fourth way schools around the west?
[/quote]

On that note, those who haven't read it may want to check the discussion in the old thread Imitation Fourth Way Groups Started by Gurdjieff Rejects.