STS and STO

I remember that i read somewhere on this forum the following sentences. I don`t remember if they were said by Cs or by some forum member , but from my memory it goes like this:
If you represent STS hierarchy you will represent it with Pyramid. The top of the pyramid takes energy from all bellow it ,but never gives back. Its the same with every layer of pyramid. Upper layer feeds from lower layer, until the top which feeds from all.
The STO hierarchy can be represented with sphere. There is no layer and every possition on that sphere is equal.So you can imagine a points on a sphere where all are interconnected between them. They feed each other with energy so that everybody is giving and receiving.There is a constant flow of energy in both directions.

This analogy for me is the best illustration of STO and STS concepts.
 
But doesn't it then go even further in terms of knowing HOW much to receive/take and knowing HOW to give back?
What does it take to know when to receive, know when to give back, the quality/quantity and how these acts represent themselves?

Are these questions mostly answered through doing the Work and struggling, through trying to be more externally considerate (aligning with STO) , doing things that you don't want to?
 
Lilyalic said:
Are these questions mostly answered through doing the Work and struggling, through trying to be more externally considerate (aligning with STO) , doing things that you don't want to?

Well the struggle is doing what it doesn't want to do - ie the Predators Mind.

I think this comes back to the feeling of internal happiness, and why it can't really be used to differentiate between STO and STS. Because in times of struggle when we make choices based on trying to align with STO, rather than STS, IMO it feels like there is NO internal happiness inside in that moment. It feels uncomfortable and frankly quite unnatural. I have to use my intellect to direct the machine in this instance, rather then going based one which feelings I am experiencing.
 
Lilyalic said:
But doesn't it then go even further in terms of knowing HOW much to receive/take and knowing HOW to give back?
What does it take to know when to receive, know when to give back, the quality/quantity and how these acts represent themselves?

Are these questions mostly answered through doing the Work and struggling, through trying to be more externally considerate (aligning with STO) , doing things that you don't want to?
I`m not so sure what to answer. IMO and as Cs have said we must keep the balance. We must take and give equally in order to keep the energy flow in us and in the group.
For example this forum. If someone just takes , just read materials and all that is posted and give nothing back.That is just taking. The person is not giving nothing back to to the group and individuals in the group.He must participate in the forum, he must try to think and give his own comments and thinking about some theme. Maybe in the moment that answer will look like it doesn't have any value but it may give some idea to other member or even help somebody. To participate as much as he can in group projects that are beneficial for all members, to donate money or anything.

In this way the person and the group will stay balanced. And the flow of the energy will be good. Now imagine that the same principle is used everywhere. So sharing what you have and receiving what other have to offer is way of STO way. Giving something to someone who doesn't want to accept it or one who don't need it or its not prepared to receive it is actually not a giving.

Giving here, on this forum and then other people accept exactly how much they need and for how much they are prepared.

Maybe i`m interpreting/ understanding something wrong , but that is how i understand this.

And then there is the struggle. Like should i do that or not, should i post that or not, then fear of posting and all things that are already discussed here.
 
I think two factors may play a big role here: intention and knowledge. The purer the intention to do something for others rather than for selfish reasons, the more STO-oriented the act, I think. However, intention alone is not enough - we also need knowledge. For example, when I donate something to the Bill Gates Foundation thinking that they will help people with my money, my intention may be pure, but the result bad (those foundations actually cause a lot of harm to the world). Or, I think I'm doing someone something good by buying an expensive present, and I actually believe it - but it is just a narrative so that I can feed my own grandiosity. In both cases, the intention was subjectively "pure", but the lack of knowledge transformed the intention into something negative, causing people harm; in the first case a lack of knowledge about the world we live in, in the second case a lack of knowledge about how our minds work.


Lilyalic said:
But doesn't it then go even further in terms of knowing HOW much to receive/take and knowing HOW to give back?
What does it take to know when to receive, know when to give back, the quality/quantity and how these acts represent themselves?

Are these questions mostly answered through doing the Work and struggling, through trying to be more externally considerate (aligning with STO) , doing things that you don't want to?

Yes, I think it's a matter of Doing/trying hard, while gathering knowledge as you go along. That is, ruthlessly questioning one's intentions and learn/practice to do things for the benefit of others - which doesn't always mean "helping others", it can also mean just helping oneself, realizing that in our current state we can do nothing to help others and would only harm them if we tried. This is I think what Gurdjieff meant with his talk about being egoistical first. Note however that this comes after the extremely painful realization that we are totally helpless, and indeed constantly harm others. We may then decide to be egoistical in the sense that we have to help ourselves in order to help others. But the intention is still to help others, not to "become stronger", "more admirable", "more advanced", achieve a better standing etc., osit.
 
Lilyalic said:
But doesn't it then go even further in terms of knowing HOW much to receive/take and knowing HOW to give back?
What does it take to know when to receive, know when to give back, the quality/quantity and how these acts represent themselves?
In response to this question, I'm not sure I know how to answer it either. There is a difference between receiving and taking... from what I understand now they are not really the same thing, however I may be wrong.

Like Konstantin said about taking, taking would be to make use of all of the material here merely for ones self without giving anything back to the group. The way I used to see this was like "I have very little knowledge and awareness compared to everyone else, therefore how can I be of any use to the network? I cannot - so I will not post". This is pretty much a dead end for that person in terms of learning, because the information they have gathered from the site is only theoretical in nature. To actually apply that knowledge practically however, is to truly make use of it and help others. When we apply this knowledge with the intent of helping another here on the forum, we also gain from the exchange and in this case receive.

Some recent feedback I was given was that a person can only receive by giving back, and that is the difference. One can only receive as much as they give back to this Work, by giving back to the Work (if that makes any sense). Although I don't think this necessarily means that one must have a large quantity/quality of knowledge to receive a large quantity/quality of knowledge in return. I think it means that we all chip in in whichever way we can. It comes back to relativity. It's relative to each individual - we all have our strengths and weaknesses. So if we can utilize those strengths to try and help others on here in whichever way we can, whether the advice someone gives is off the mark or not, it's still a contribution and a means of learning for all.

A good way to look at it is like M/G's staircase. For others who are more advanced to grow, learn, and move up a step, there must be another who is able to take their previous place on the staircase. Therefore, you ask and receive, and another is asked and receives, which subsequently results in both parties learning together :)

I am not sure this answers your question, so I apologise if not.
 
One of the best articles I ever read on this subject was by a guy named Michael Topper, which has been referenced by Laura on the old Cass website.

The Positive & Negative Realms of Higher Densities

In the higher densities, the Name of the Game is Consciousness. This simply means that the higher densities of existence, whether positive or negative in orientation, all recognize that the business of all being and existence everywhere is always that of Consciousness... becoming more and more "Aware." Awareness is related to "density" of consciousness, so to say. The STS (Service To Self) way of achieving "density of consciousness" is to "gain weight" by assimilation of other consciousness units. This is generally promoted as "All is One" and refers to "evil" as a "rebellion" or a fault or something that will ultimately be "done away with."

STO (Service To Others), on the other hand sees "gaining weight" in a different way. It sees that an acknowledgement of the consciousness of "other self" as equal to its own consciousness, in spite of completely different manifestation of that being, is the way to "network" the consciousness so that the Whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

The difference is that the STO guys recognize consciousness as being an "integrative" activity of mutual networking and interdependence because they view all others as self, even if they are different, and therefore seek to help and assist because the other IS self in an absolute internal sense. In this way, Absolute Consciousness, or God is "glorified" by a marvelous diversity of being if you wish to put it in those terms.

The negative guys, on the other hand, play the game in terms of domination, subjugation and absorption of other consciousnesses into "One." . But, they too, understand that the rules of the game posit that in order for them to truly "absorb" into their being these other "consciousnesses," that the "other" must choose to become part of their "self-aggrandizement." An unwilling "food" is, in essence, not "nutritious" so to say. If the consciousness does not choose, it becomes a "poison" to the consciousness that seeks to "eat it." And so they must promote "Oneness" in a very particular way.

Note that both sides acknowledge "Oneness," but in very different ways.

So, we have to understand here that the true Negative Realm agenda is to "eat consciousness." So, this actually prevents an overt "take-over" in literal, physical terms. If an "invasion" was detected, this would mean that the veil would be lifted and all would see the "man behind the curtain" and would be disgusted and turn away. Just as in the "Wizard of Oz," those Ruby Slippers have to be obtained VERY CAREFULLY!

Gathering the essence is an art of great subtlety! The "negative alien plan" is, in its purest sense, STALKING.

The aim of Stalking is to create a completely controlled artificial environment composed of thoroughly predictable human behaviors - made predictable because they have been programmed to respond to cues of conditioning [inculcated through centuries of lies and obfuscations presented in the form of religions] and all of this revolves around a ’story’ that is actually untrue, and wholly misrepresentative of the real negative aim.

For centuries these programming signals have been being set up - either because of time travel capabilities, or because of actual historical presence. Various prophets or religious leaders have been influenced to preach, or teach or prophesy philosophies designed to lay a foundation for later take-over - possibly in our present time. When people begin to get wise, the Negatives simply go back into the past, add something more to the soup to "cover up" the new awareness. This then act as a domino effect and influences our present. Time loops and all that. A lot of people think that the "alien invasion scenario" is a ruse concocted by the government to create the impression that there is a forming "threat," thereby enabling the institution of a New World Order. But, this idea is based on a misrepresentation of the process just described.

The important thing to remember is this: there is NOT a "unified conspiratorial activity" going on here in the hierarchy of government. The "divide and conquer" effect is also manifest at this level and suits the alien purposes to a "T." Such activity at ALL levels is consistent with their program of STALKING, in which confusion and cross-purpose prevents a clear perception on the part of the Stalkees.

Yet, at some deep level there may be a direct conspiratorial interaction between the "secret government" and the negative aliens... but it is unlikely that any name of those involved would be recognized by anyone, no matter how "in the know" regarding the subject. These "secret superiors" are just that: SECRET. Any organization you can name, or about which you are AWARE, are merely "outer circles."

What is the designed objective of this STALKING? It is two-fold.
First, the effect of Stalking is sort of like stampeding a herd of cattle. Bit by bit, they are consolidated into a "negative mode" which consists of the idea of "us vs them." Even though, on the surface, it may seem that this "mode" is positive or STO, (i.e. save the world because it is "wrong" or flawed, or blighted with original sin or whatever) the very fact that it is formed in the "dominator" mode of perceiving salvation "outside," means that it can more easily be "taken over" body, mind and soul at a level that is "unseen and unseeable." In other words: Satan CAN and most often DOES appear as an Angel of Light!

It is only at the lower levels of the power structure that many still believe they are playing out the basic ’antagonism’ and ’self- protection’ roles. They believe that "sending love and light" to those "in need" is appropriate, without realizing that this activity is predicated upon a deep belief that there is something wrong, in error, in rebellion, and thus becomes again, "us vs them."

There is evidence that extensive implant technology may be used to ensure influenced obedience; yet, a degree of freedom must be conserved through the consciousness due to the essential fact that the valued commodity is consciousness. A totally drugged, surgically altered and thoroughly programmed psyche is only good for robotic slave-service (and this may also be going on also, by the way). It is in this understanding that we find our way out of the trap. It isn’t easy, but it is a way.

The primary object of Negative stalking is to persuade through strongly influenced, but not robotic, behavior patterns, the Free Choice of the targeted CONSCIOUSNESS to align with negative higher-density existence. Because, in the Long Run, the object is the "eating" of functioning units of consciousness by the negative hierarchy, with Free Will intact! It is not good food otherwise!!!!

And this is where physics comes in again... because the CONSERVED ELEMENT OF TRUE CONSCIOUSNESS is the irreducible value of Free Will. The mind of the subject must retain Free Will which distinguishes consciousness as such.

The instant the negative polarization is chosen as a result of true prerogative of Free Will, the "subject" immediately becomes functionally a "part" of the higher-dimensional entity responsible for having induced the choice in the first place, regardless of the deceptive means employed, or the persuasive misrepresentations used in conditioning the terms through which the fateful choice is made. In other words, confusion, physical and/or emotional/mental pain, exhaustion, blackmail, and even forms of torture are legitimate modes of "persuasion." Of course, the more subtle the means used, the more value is retained. A "tortured" consciousness is the equivalent to being "overcooked." Many higher level Beings of Darkness are veritable connoisseurs! They particularly relish the subversion of those who are truly pure and strong willed!

There’s an immediate PSYCHIC BOND in this relationship to the higher density negative being who is the "handler" of the human "agent" who is now a functional part of his "eater/master," and, the negative hierarchy is proportionately enhanced with every "induction/absorption" of additional members.

In other words: the negative hierarchy is a pyramidal food chain... the apex of the pyramid is comprised of the most persistent of the negative graduates, the one who has stuck it out against every evidence of diminishment, and is the ultimate example of "wishful thinking."

This "Ultimate Wishful Thinking" means that they/it cannot SEE that they do not become God by assimilation and control of other selves... but that the real result is a gradual compaction and implosion and dissolution into primal matter and NON-being.


And here is where physics comes in again to help us get a handle on this conflict: Without duality, there would be no existence to discuss. From the One there is bilateral emergence. Exactly one half joyfully seeks life and creation and play and exploration... a sort of "love of adventure."

The other half expresses a fundamental fear of "losing self" in this play and exploration. This causes it to recoil upon itself and this establishes the "tension" of polarization which is the stuff of which the cosmos is constructed..

This can be more easily understood as "Love of God through others," i.e. by loving others unconditionally, as God, since all are one, even though differentiated; as opposed to "Love of God through self" i.e. believing that love of himself IS love of God, therefore others must love him too!

The one view sees all others AS SELF, and loves All and seeks to serve others.

The other sees only SELF and seeks to appropriate all others to Self to restore equilibrium... to "go back to the Cosmic Sleep of Oneness," so to speak.

One analogy would be the difference between a free and adventurous child that is full of the sense of adventure as opposed to a child that wishes to "own the mother" and cling to her and incorporate her to himself; i.e. Jealousy.

The "Darkness" is, in fact, a State of Consciousness that has existed from the very beginning of individuation and which COVETS ATTENTION FOR ITSELF ALONE.

This consciousness hates, fears and deeply distrusts Creation, and just wants to effectively "roll over and go back to sleep" in eternal union with the "mother/father."

An important point here is: this Negative consciousness arises from the "self viewing self" at the instant of creation and is, therefore, an integral part of creation. It cannot be separated from it because it exists only because of Positive creative inception. Neither can exist without the other. It’s that simple.

Negative consciousness is the SELFness of creation - the gravity that draws all that exists back to itself. It is the aspect of the ONE involved in contemplation and rejection of creativity in its own heart, frozen in that moment of "vertigo" experienced at the outrush of creative energy.

And, because this "state of consciousness" occurs in conjunction with, and precisely because of, Creative potential, or OTHERness, and is, in fact, identified through that factor, it cannot be "done away with" without ALL returning to The ONE and just "going back to sleep." Thus we see that the efforts to "save the world" via "punishment of the wicked," or "conversion to the light" or "spiritualizing matter with love," are all expressions of the fundamental desire to UNDO CREATION; to KILL GOD! Through the idea that "evil/darkness" is a rebellion, a fault, a thing to be done away with, the "twist" is introduced that lays the groundwork for domination and absorption. This is why, even though promulgated "Christian principles" seem to be good and uplifting, and, in fact, CAN be, the fundamental raison is flawed and also expresses itself in Christian history in such ways as the many slaughters that have been instituted in the name of Christianity.

So, the bottom line is: this other "half" of the All, born along with the Creative upsurge, becomes focused on actualizing its own impulse - to undo creation - for it realizes that only then can it be at "peace."

The only way it can achieve that ideal narcissistic withdrawal into itself in infinite Self-contemplation is through reclaiming all Attention and consciousness that is, in effect, "borrowed against" the inconceivable magnitude of Consciousness in Cosmic Sleep.

Darkness becomes, in effect, an incurable insomniac!!!

The consciousness of STS/Darkness feels that it must tear apart the creative fabric of existence thereby liberating those units of energy involved in the creative functions, and "swallow" them back into itself, erasing their differential properties and powers so as to restore the One AS ONE.

Itself.

However, this is not clearly seen at the lower densities until the masks are stripped away. The deepest implications of this are hidden by many veils... And even the 4th and 5th density participants do not necessarily comprehend this ultimate dissolution.

Sort of the "Ultimate Light Eater" preaching the gospel of Devolution as "Salvation."


Laura’s note:

What may or may not have happened to remove the Topper’s from the scene is subject to much debate and many rumors have been passed around regarding this. One rumor was that they attained their insights by "questionable means," to put it delicately. However, I do not necessarily subscribe to this opinion because the quality of the work is self-evident.

I do, however, speculate that they most likely came under serious attack from hyperdimensional spheres for their revelations. And it was the lack of a "network" that made them vulnerable. But that is just speculation.

Another possible factor, based on what can be inferred from their descriptions of the "state" in which the insights were achieved, suggests that there was, perhaps, not sufficient preparation in terms of establishing a network of support, as well as the "capacity" to receive without consequences.

Ibn al-’Arabi addressed this problem in detail. He tells us that,
"the unveiling that the traveler experiences, (i.e. the results of meditation) "adds nothing to the principles and corollaries of faith. At most, it fills in some of the details. [...] Given that we enter the path and follow the guidance of God, and given that we experience an "unveiling" that makes all sorts of things clear to us that we never understood before, can we be sure that the unveiling is from God? Is there no possibility of satanic intervention and our going astray? Is not a person who claims that he is following his own "tasting" in effect claiming independence and setting up his own religion, at least for himself?"
And the answer he gives is that:
"Any knowledge, any "tasting," any "unveiling," witnessing or self-disclosure must submit itself to the Scale of the Law. (i.e. networking.)

"The traveler who wants to reach the goal safely must avoid the deceptions that lie in wait for him on the path. Once he has reached the stages of unveiling and witnessing, he will be tempted by Satan and his own caprice to depend upon himself rather than follow the "scale of the law."

"He must move forward according to the scale of knowledge derived from [networking].

"If a "divine command" should come to him in that which is made manifest to him, that contradicts the scale, then he has been duped.

"Many of those who wish for God have been duped in their states without being aware. This is a hidden deception, a strong divine guile, and a being led on step by step without their being aware.

"Beware lest you throw the Scale from your hand... If you understand from it something different from what the people (meaning those of the path) understand such that your understanding comes between you and them, then do not rely upon your understanding! For it is a deception of the ego in a divine form without your being aware.

"We have come across sincere people among the Folk of Allah who have been duped by this station. They prefer their own unveiling and that which becomes manifest to them in their understanding. They depend upon this in their own case. Anyone who relies upon it is totally confused and has left his affiliation with the Folk, thereby joining the "greatest losers." Their striving goes astray in the present life, while they think they are working good deeds."

"When the friends of God climb in the ascents of their aspirations, the goal of their arrival is the Divine Names, since the Divine Names seek them."

"They receive only in the measure of their own preparedness.

"We do not ask those who have opinions of their own. We say to them, "Has it been revealed [among the Folk, Friends of God?]
If he says yes, then you must weigh it against what you have come to know and what has been said to you. You should also weigh it against what is known to others. This is the scale.
"The spiritual traveller who is not sufficiently rooted in the Scale of the Law may think he no longer has need for it.

"The friends of God witness the angels, but they do not witness the casting itself; or they witness the casting and they know that it was done by an angel, but they do not witness the angel. No one can combine the vision of the angel and the casting except a messenger. This is how the friend is differentiated from the messenger.

"As for how the casting takes place, I can tell you that it occurs through affinity. The heart of him who receives the casting must have the preparedness for what is cast into it. Without it, there is no reception. But preparedness is not identical with reception, since preparedness depends upon divine designation. Indeed, certain souls may walk upon the path which takes them to the door from behind which, when opened, there takes place this specific casting. Then, when they reach the door, they stop until they see that through which it will be opened for them.

"When it is opened, the command emerges one in entity, and they receive it from outside the door to the measure of their preparedness. They perform NO WORKS in achieving this. On the contrary, God specifies each of them with a preparedness.

"It is here that distinctions are drawn among the various groups, between followers, or friends, and those who are messengers.

"He who has no knowledge imagines that traveling to this door is the cause by which was earned that which was gained when opening took place. Were this the case, those who experience the opening would all be equal.

"The states present dangers to the person who experiences them. Though they are divine bestowals, there is always the risk of taking them too seriously, thinking that one has deserved the states, becoming proud, losing one’s mental equilibrium. States are trials that the traveler has to undergo. The sooner they are done with, the better.

"Though "divine inrushes" may come without self-exertion, the traveler who is not prepared for them [is in grave danger.]

"There are three levels of this:
1) When the inrush is greater than the strength of the soul, so it rules over the soul. Such a person has no ability to govern himself.
2) The inrush takes away the person’s rational faculties and nothing is left but animal faculties.
3) The inrush does not last, the state disappears, and the individual is able to return to his fellows with his reason intact. He governs his own affairs, and he understands and acts based on deliberation. Such is a messenger and the friends of God.
"When the inrush is balanced with the individual’s own capacity, no one will even be able to detect that the inrush has occurred. In such a case, even if you do not see anything with your eyes, you notice that something has distracted him from you, as if someone were speaking to him. Or he has suddenly begun to think about something, so his senses turn toward it and his eyes become veiled.

"Sometimes the individual’s capacity is greater than the inrush so that when it comes to him while he is conversing with you, you are aware of nothing. He is able to receive the casting, and to continue to attend to what you are saying.

"The traveler seeks to increase their capacity to receive inrushes so that they will NOT be affected by them.

"They also avoid those states which become manifest as "extraordinary."

According to the Koran, God is the "Best of Deceivers."
These deceptions are the many tests to determine if the traveler can "see through" and navigate the path.
"So, preserve yourselves, my brothers, from the calamities of this place, for distinguishing it is extremely difficult! Souls find it sweet, and then within it they are duped, since they become completely enamoured of it."
[Excerpts from William Chittick’s translation and exegesis: The Sufi Path of Knowledge, State University of New York, 1989]
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/topper/topper11.htm
 
From our Esoteric Glossary:

Service to Others and Service to Self

The concepts of service to others (STO) and service to self (STS) are the central cornerstone of the teaching of first Ra and then Cassiopaea. We find these same fundamentals expressed in different terms throughout esoteric culture. The fundamental nature and extreme breadth of these concepts makes them difficult to define since these are in one way or another reflected in all things.

Ra said that for the human level, speaking of STO vs. STS was the most appropriate terminology because humans tend to think in terms of action and its ethical basis. The concepts of absorption for STS and radiance for STO could also be used as a metaphor. At any rate, the principles are beyond words.

Cosmologically, the Cassiopaeans speak of 'dual emergence' from the One. This is the source of all which is and this is where the first duality comes into being. The principle of free will, at its various levels of manifestation, mediates between these. This can be compared to Gurdjieff's first triad, the Sun Absolute dividing in three at the start of the ray of creation. In the most abstract sense, the existence of two dissimilar forces or tendencies plus free will is the simplest basis for an open universe. All the forms of creation follow from these, through a series of increasingly restricted or mechanical levels of being. These levels correspond to the densities of Ra and Cassiopaea or the cosmoses of the 4th Way.

Depending on the context, the STO/STS duality manifests differently. Specific aspects of this duality are described in many other articles of the present work. We will here list different dualities and how they can be seen in relation to STO and STS. A comprehensive description is impossible at our level and we will need to have recourse to allegory.

Spirit / matter - STS beings worship the physical universe [C's]. We could say that all is consciousness but a full half of the consciousness is asleep, in the form of matter. The second half then uses this as a canvas or material for creation. Pure STS cannot exist without some form of materiality, hence does not occur past 4th density.[C's] See '6th Density,' '4th Density.'

Creation / entropy - Creation is multiplicity of forms, entropy is sameness or homogeneity. STS preoccupation with control is in the end entropic. See Entropy, Chaos, Creation and Order.

Being / non-being - See 'Being vs. Non-Being.'

Dispersion / collection of gravity - According to the Cassiopaeans, gravity is the fabric that ties all existence together, across all densities. Dispersing gravity corresponds to STO, collecting gravity to STS. This leads to a black hole being the physical representation of the idea of STS, as the C's put it. Light is the energy expression of gravity, in this sense radiance and the trapping of light inside the black hole allegorically correspond to STO/STS. See transcripts for much more.

Balance / imbalance - C's: :STO is balance because you serve self through others. […] STO is balance. STS is imbalance. […] STO flows outward and touches all including point of origin, STS flows inward and touches only origin point.'

This is why the terms are sometimes defined as service to self through serving others (STO) or serving others through serving the self (STS). Or as Ra puts it, worshiping God in self or worshiping God in creation, all service is thus of the One in the end. See Cassiopaea transcripts for much more.

Light / darkness - The darkness is the backdrop into which the light shines. Both are necessary for defining each other. See Gravity.

Radiance / absorption - STS corresponds to absorbing or concentrating energy. STO corresponds to radiating outward.

Freedom / control - STS is concerned with control over all aspects of self and others. STS also believes that by imposing its laws it is helping the universe to return to the One, thus it thinks its action is a service to others. STO sees creation as inherently limitless and is not concerned with determining what is 'good' for another.

Expansion / contraction - Exploring possibilities corresponds to STO, imposing limits on others to STS.

Network / hierarchy - In terms of social organization, STS naturally tends towards the hierarchy with internal competition for resources and power. STO tends towards sharing and passing around that which is received. See 'Networking', 'STS Hierarchy.'

Giving vs. Taking - C's: STS does not eat according to protocol. It takes if it is capable. STO gives all to those who ask. See All to those who Ask.

Objectivity / subjectivity - Wishful thinking is the hallmark of STS. They only see what they want to see. [C's] See 'Objectivity' and 'Subjectivity.'

Good / evil - In human ethical terms, what is generally considered evil most often corresponds to STS. The terms are however laden with a baggage of subjectivity and what is good for one can be bad for another, thus these are easily misleading. The polarization to either STO/STS cannot be reduced to an external code of ethics only.

From a cosmic standpoint, both polarities are necessary. This does not however mean that these can be effectively reconciled at the human level. Thus the cosmic call on the human is to choose one or the other.

Gurdjieff discusses STO and STS in Beelzebub's Tales as follows:

'. "If the notions recorded on this Boolmarshano were put into ordinary language, they could be stated in the following words: "'Evidently we men, also like all the existing units of the World, are formed and always consist of the same three independent forces, by means of which the process of reciprocal maintenance of everything existing proceeds; namely, of the following three independent World forces: "'The first of these forces constantly arises from the causes which proceed in the Prime Source itself and from the pressure of the newly arisen, and issuing from it by momentum flows out of that Prime Source. "'The second World force is what this first force be- comes, when, after having spent the momentum which it has received, it strives to reblend with the source of its arising, according to the fundamental World law called "The effects of a cause must always re-enter the cause." "'Both of these forces in the general process of reciprocally maintaining forces are entirely independent, and in their manifestations have always and in everything their own properties and particularities. "'The first of these two fundamental forces, namely, that one which for compelling reasons always manifests outside the source of its arising, must constantly involve; and the second one, on the contrary, striving to blend with the cause of its arising, must always and in everything evolve. "'Owing to the fact that the first of the mentioned three independent forces arises from vivifying actions proceeding in the very foundation of the cause of everything existing and thus receives in its presence the germ of the possibility of manifesting vivifyingness, it may be considered as "Good," that is, as a factor for the actualizing of the backward-flowing effects which in relation to this first force can and must be considered as "Evil." "I Moreover, the first of these forces, which is manifested from inevitable and compelling causes arising in the Prime Source itself, can from this point of view be considered as passive. And the second backward-flowing force, because it must constantly resist in order to have the possibility of penetrating backward or at least the possibility of withstanding the opposite-flowing first passive force which has received its momentum from the Prime Source causes, must be regarded as active. "And as for the third independent World force, this force is nothing else but only the result of the clash everywhere and in everything of these two fundamental descending and ascending independent forces. "'Although this third independent force is only the result of both first fundamental forces, it is nevertheless the spiritualizing and reconciling source of every World formation. "'And it is the spiritualizing source of every World formation because it arises and must exist in them as a presence all the time while the given results exist which arise from various unusual mutual resistances occurring between the said two fundamental forces flowing in entirely opposite directions.' "And so, my boy, it was in this sense and in this meaning that the words 'Good' and 'Evil' were first used by this unfortunate Makary Kronbernkzion.'
 
I'm sure this article called Précis on Good and Evil (by Michael Topper) was also paraphrased in The Wave. Here is the link for it and some of Topper's other article - well worth a read regarding this subject. OSIT

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/topper/topper12.htm
 
Thanks for those Arwenn.

The points about negative stalking and free will seem quite poignant. I am led to think of certain ongoing situations in ones own life, where you are placed under intense pressure, to act in certain ways, to make certain decisions, but where necessarily enough room is given to you, as if to watch what choices and decisions you make out of your own volition given the pressure and influences you are placed under.

The not even being able to tell clearly what the correct STO alligned choices are, as opposed to the STS ones, makes this that much harder. But if we are being stalked, and pursued by things hidden from sight, then it makes sense the approach they take.

Anyone know what happened to Michael Topper?
 
alkhemst said:
I guess most of the time we are STS as most of the time we run off programs that seek to feed on something and generally someone at any one point in time.

So those brief moments of self reflection of just how that is playing out specifically in us as individuals is when STS is put on hold and becomes STO. I'm thinking that as that's the time when its actually serving to all.

It feels bad as no emotional addiction, no feeding is being met and we get a glimpse of ourselves more clearly than ever, the reflection looks ugly, feels wrong in us, but its real and that serves others because for a moment we stop trying to take or steal from others to get our needy emotions met like approval or validation etc etc.

That's the moment we aren't reaching outwards to get something or aren't closing in on ourselves frustrated with not getting it but just seeing, and cracking the shell open for the possibility to sincerely give. That state, has to be where the cracks start appearing and real STO can shine through.

As Mr Cohen says more eloquently:

Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in.

Or equally that's how the light gets out!

Just my two cents as we say :)

I like that quote Alkemst.

If we can give something without expecting or anticipating any type of reward, because that person is truly asking, then perhaps we come close, (anyway), to STO in an STS realm. That's hard to do as we live in an STS realm, (and those who learn must suffer). As previous posters have stated, we ARE STS. I think about how I get hungry and have to eat, heck, we have to absorb the bodies of other living beings to nourish ourselves. We have the Predator's Mind.

We have chosen this lesson and as the Cs have said, those who have done so must learn the hard way. Desiring, or choosing to strive toward STO in a 3D STS realm is perhaps the first step, it seems the choice to transform to STO, in our current circumstances, is linked to the coming change from 3D to 4D, along with gaining knowledge. Some of our attempts at STO are failures because of lack of understanding. Lack of understanding about STO/STS energy dynamics. It seems the C's have placed emphasis on emotion, tempered by understanding and knowledge, fwiw.

session 950902 said:
Q: (L) Is it also correct that emotion can be used to mislead,
that is emotions that are twisted and generated strictly from
the flesh or false programming?
A: Emotion that limits is an impediment to progress. Emotion
is also necessary to make progress in 3rd density. It is natural.
When you begin to separate limiting emotions based on
assumptions from emotions that open one to unlimited
possibilities, that means you are preparing for the next density.
Q: (L) What about Love?
A: What about it?
Q: (L) There are many teachings that are promulgated that
Love is the key, the answer. They say that illumination and
knowledge and what-not can all be achieved through love.
A: The problem is not the term "love," the problem is the
interpretation of the term. Those on third density have a
tendency to confuse the issue horribly. After all, they confuse
many things as love. When the actual definition of love as you
know it is not correct either. It is not necessarily a feeling that
one has that can also be interpreted as an emotion, but rather,
as we have told you before, the essence of light which is
knowledge is love, and this has been corrupted when it is said
that love leads to illumination. Love is Light is Knowledge.
Love makes no sense when common definitions are used as
they are in your environment. To love you must know. And to
know is to have light. And to have light is to love. And to have
knowledge is to love.

[edit: typo]
 
Mark said:
alkhemst said:
I guess most of the time we are STS as most of the time we run off programs that seek to feed on something and generally someone at any one point in time.

So those brief moments of self reflection of just how that is playing out specifically in us as individuals is when STS is put on hold and becomes STO. I'm thinking that as that's the time when its actually serving to all.

It feels bad as no emotional addiction, no feeding is being met and we get a glimpse of ourselves more clearly than ever, the reflection looks ugly, feels wrong in us, but its real and that serves others because for a moment we stop trying to take or steal from others to get our needy emotions met like approval or validation etc etc.

That's the moment we aren't reaching outwards to get something or aren't closing in on ourselves frustrated with not getting it but just seeing, and cracking the shell open for the possibility to sincerely give. That state, has to be where the cracks start appearing and real STO can shine through.

As Mr Cohen says more eloquently:

Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in.

Or equally that's how the light gets out!

Just my two cents as we say :)

I like that quote Alkemst.

If we can give something without expecting or anticipating any type of reward, because that person is truly asking, then perhaps we come close, (anyway), to STO in an STS realm. That's hard to do as we live in an STS realm, (and those who learn must suffer). As previous posters have stated, we ARE STS. I think about how I get hungry and have to eat, heck, we have to absorb the bodies of other living beings to nourish ourselves. We have the Predator's Mind.

We have chosen this lesson and as the Cs have said, those who have done so must learn the hard way. Desiring, or choosing to strive toward STO in a 3D STS realm is perhaps the first step, it seems the choice to transform to STO, in our current circumstances, is linked to the coming change from 3D to 4D, along with gaining knowledge. Some of our attempts at STO are failures because of lack of understanding. Lack of understanding about STO/STS energy dynamics. It seems the C's have placed emphasis on emotion, tempered by understanding and knowledge, fwiw.

session 950902 said:
Q: (L) Is it also correct that emotion can be used to mislead,
that is emotions that are twisted and generated strictly from
the flesh or false programming?
A: Emotion that limits is an impediment to progress. Emotion
is also necessary to make progress in 3rd density. It is natural.
When you begin to separate limiting emotions based on
assumptions from emotions that open one to unlimited
possibilities, that means you are preparing for the next density.
Q: (L) What about Love?
A: What about it?
Q: (L) There are many teachings that are promulgated that
Love is the key, the answer. They say that illumination and
knowledge and what-not can all be achieved through love.
A: The problem is not the term "love," the problem is the
interpretation of the term. Those on third density have a
tendency to confuse the issue horribly. After all, they confuse
many things as love. When the actual definition of love as you
know it is not correct either. It is not necessarily a feeling that
one has that can also be interpreted as an emotion, but rather,
as we have told you before, the essence of light which is
knowledge is love, and this has been corrupted when it is said
that love leads to illumination. Love is Light is Knowledge.
Love makes no sense when common definitions are used as
they are in your environment. To love you must know. And to
know is to have light. And to have light is to love. And to have
knowledge is to love.

[edit: typo]

Had a bit of a light bulb moment for myself around this a couple of weeks back. What I noted in myself is that there's a "need" to get something from others, not material things from others or even other's attention but a feeling from them. A feeling of acceptance, approval, admiration, care, desire, of being needed etc. Basically a feeling of "love" from others. But like the C's say, we don't know what that is, so what I'm seeking is a distorted view of what love really is, and if I somehow get it from others, it's probably a distorted feeling of "love" that I get back too.

It's not different from being an alcoholic wanting to drink, the sugar addict wanting sugar. The substance isn't alcohol or sugar but it is a sort of substance, a feeling - or in other words someone's energy, we also call emotion. Isn't that energy feeding? It's certainly STS. I can see too how when I'm not able to feed, which is actually a lot of the time, I'll either go in on myself, feel frustrated, seek ways to escape or I'll find other ways to meet it - like get on Facebook or coming here. As I said it's not a reflection that feels good.

It's hard to see myself in those terms, I tend to want to minimise it with comforting self talk: "It's not so bad", "I was doing that for good reasons". Or the opposite "I'm awful", "I'm really messed up" etc. One is trying to soothe myself back into my programs, the other is just another program - I'll attack myself and get sympathy or I'll attack myself to reduce the likelihood of anyone else potentially attacking me while I'm feeling down.

Anyway that's the background behind what I was saying above.

Mark said:
I think about how I get hungry and have to eat, heck, we have to absorb the bodies of other living beings to nourish ourselves. We have the Predator's Mind.

On that analogy there's probably two distinct things I reckon that separates STO from STS. There's eating for optimal health, which is putting energy in the optimal format into our machine for the best functional state. Then there's eating that compromises optimal health, it's no longer about the bodies' best functional state, its about something else - a craving for more sugar to get a sugar high, or a drink to drown sorrows and cover those moments when feeling bad.

One nourishes, the other doesn't but temporally covers deeper pain (and extends it out for longer). I reckon people who become addicted to physical things, use these as a secondary coping, because if they got the "good" feelings met from others all the time - the primary coping, they wouldn't need the secondary coping. Probably most of the "happy" people going about their daily activities, happy with not knowing what's really going on in themselves and in the world, but apparently socially highly functional, are just good at the primary coping.

Maybe it's not that they are necessarily good, it's just that they are mutually getting their feeding needs met with others. Similar to the guy in the Matrix movie that didn't like being out of the Matrix, it was hard, it was an ugly reality - he wanted back in the illusion - he wanted to be in it wealthy and admired, so he'd never need to question whether his reality was real. Even though he knew that going back in was just going to be slowly be sucking the life force out of him, he preferred that over the real reality that was just too ugly or too hard or too much work. He wanted to be in the place where he could be getting feed all the "good" feelings all the time and as much as possible. He didn't want real nourishment.

So what I guess I'm getting at, is the really nourishing food are those true reflections we get back from people that actually want to give something of nourishment but seek nothing in return. When someone states the truth, sees something that we miss or deny in ourselves, and gives it to us - even if it makes us feel bad, we might want to argue, defend ourselves, attack them (I've done that) but say we don't. Instead for a moment we might just stop, take it in with a sense of curiosity, wondering if it is true for us and just reflecting on it - that's real soul nourishment I'd say. Wanting that nourishment that allows ourselves to learn even despite the pain that ensures, is STO. Because we can really grow from that nourishment and then we become more capable to give a little back from the knowledge that came with that experience. Giving back with no need for anyone even to accept it, just giving because we know it helped us along our way and we figure it could help others too. That's probably when STO finds its way out in us.
 
I wanted to be in the place where he could be getting feed all the "good" feelings all the time and as much as possible. He didn't want real nourishment.

I noticed an interesting typo, but fixed it above - shit, I'm really trying to tell myself something here. I guess it's true though, I did want that for a long time, and a part of me still does, but bit by bit I'm feeling that I'm starting to really want that real nourishment - no more empty spiritual carbs...
 
alkhemst, I just wanted to say that I found your post very insightful.

alkhemst said:
On that analogy there's probably two distinct things I reckon that separates STO from STS. There's eating for optimal health, which is putting energy in the optimal format into our machine for the best functional state. Then there's eating that compromises optimal health, it's no longer about the bodies' best functional state, its about something else - a craving for more sugar to get a sugar high, or a drink to drown sorrows and cover those moments when feeling bad.

One nourishes, the other doesn't but temporally covers deeper pain (and extends it out for longer). I reckon people who become addicted to physical things, use these as a secondary coping, because if they got the "good" feelings met from others all the time - the primary coping, they wouldn't need the secondary coping. Probably most of the "happy" people going about their daily activities, happy with not knowing what's really going on in themselves and in the world, but apparently socially highly functional, are just good at the primary coping.

I think it's a great analogy. And I often wondered about those people that seem to go through life so easy-going, totally adapted to this mad reality. And I don't mean the "good obyvatel" types, many of whom are quite critical and feel the wrongness of our society, but those who seem to have a blast living in the matrix. And maybe you're right and these are the people that are "great" at feeding from others, and that's where they get their energy from. And because this feeding-frenzy is their "primary coping", they don't need to be addicted to food or other drugs that much and so they don't seem miserable at all. Anyway, thanks for these interesting thoughts.
 
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