STS and STO

[SeekinTruth]

Yeah, interesting post, alkhemst. It reminds me of the three types of food/nourishment of Gurdjieff: physical food, air, and impressions. One thing seems really important that STO gives all to those who ask. Our problem seems to be knowing what true asking is consistently in all situations.

Don't have much to add, as the subject has been covered quite well. Just wanted to mention, as I've seen it in other threads too, that it was Ra that said we need to be more than 50% STO or more than 95% STS to "graduate" to 4th Density, not the C's. As far as I know, the C's haven't given any percentages like that.

 

[lilyalic]

Yes, I think it's a matter of Doing/trying hard, while gathering knowledge as you go along. That is, ruthlessly questioning one's intentions and learn/practice to do things for the benefit of others - which doesn't always mean "helping others", it can also mean just helping oneself, realizing that in our current state we can do nothing to help others and would only harm them if we tried. This is I think what Gurdjieff meant with his talk about being egoistical first. Note however that this comes after the extremely painful realization that we are totally helpless, and indeed constantly harm others. We may then decide to be egoistical in the sense that we have to help ourselves in order to help others. But the intention is still to help others, not to "become stronger", "more admirable", "more advanced", achieve a better standing etc., osit.

Yeah I understand, like trying to constantly remember the knowledge you have, and remember your AIM - which is to be more align with STO or ultimately clean the machine bit by bit with smaller aims. The intention is still to help others, which means working on oneself foremost, so that you're not harming others by trying to help. As that article that Arwenn posted stated to be truly STO then it would mean treating all others/ seeing all others as the same as you, although other beings are manifested in totally different ways.

It reminded me of when Laura said in a thread about "remembering that each one of us has past wounds and fears, and being careful not to press on them" - so, seeing all others as the same, by realizing they're the same in terms of we all have our fears and wounds - not just focusing all on your own fears and wounds and believing they're more important that others.. or not exploiting others' fears and wounds to mask your own.

Like Konstantin said about taking, taking would be to make use of all of the material here merely for ones self without giving anything back to the group. The way I used to see this was like "I have very little knowledge and awareness compared to everyone else, therefore how can I be of any use to the network? I cannot - so I will not post". This is pretty much a dead end for that person in terms of learning, because the information they have gathered from the site is only theoretical in nature. To actually apply that knowledge practically however, is to truly make use of it and help others. When we apply this knowledge with the intent of helping another here on the forum, we also gain from the exchange and in this case receive.

Some recent feedback I was given was that a person can only receive by giving back, and that is the difference. One can only receive as much as they give back to this Work, by giving back to the Work (if that makes any sense). Although I don't think this necessarily means that one must have a large quantity/quality of knowledge to receive a large quantity/quality of knowledge in return. I think it means that we all chip in in whichever way we can. It comes back to relativity. It's relative to each individual - we all have our strengths and weaknesses. So if we can utilize those strengths to try and help others on here in whichever way we can, whether the advice someone gives is off the mark or not, it's still a contribution and a means of learning for all.

I don't think there's a "one answer" for this question anyway, I suppose it all depends on actions and what you actually do. Like many have said, questioning the actions of yourself, and giving back to the forum rather than sitting on the sidelines. It makes total sense when you say about only being able to receive as much as they give back to the Work - I remember a session with the C's when they said, people give back as much as they can, and they still will receive - so it's completely individualistic. Like you said, giving back what they can dependent on their strengths - which would mean, the strength came from the Work the individual had done on their selves - the balance of their knowledge and being. At the same time, realizing that everyone is the same but their strengths, what they can give back, the way they do etc is manifested in different ways. OSIT

 

[Mark7]

Yeah, interesting post, alkhemst. It reminds me of the three types of food/nourishment of Gurdjieff: physical food, air, and impressions. One thing seems really important that STO gives all to those who ask. Our problem seems to be knowing what true asking is consistently in all situations.

Don't have much to add, as the subject has been covered quite well. Just wanted to mention, as I've seen it in other threads too, that it was Ra that said we need to be more than 50% STO or more than 95% STS to "graduate" to 4th Density, not the C's. As far as I know, the C's haven't given any percentages like that.

Impressions and emotions are thought to be mental concepts, so it is hard (for me) to imagine how they could be nutritious. Yet many neuronal transmitters are located in the gut and stomach, not the brain, and based on much session material, negative emotions can be food for 4th density STS... So what is food for 4th density STO? Can information/light/knowledge be directly absorbed from Cosmic Mind like the proverbial "Lilies of the field"? I'm guessing there's some networking involved, and evidently, some 'cooking' as well...

Discussion of New Mexico going into 4th density:

A: New Mexico will still be there, but suggest review driving skills, for but one example!

[Jan's note: New Mexico's vehicle license plate does say "Land of Enchantment."]

Q: (T) New Mexico will still exist, but the perception, when you drive into it, is going to change completely, because you've moved into a different density?

A: Cooking will be fun too!

Q: (T) Because it's fourth density. (L) Wait, now, stop a minute here... (T) This is not something that can be covered up very easily...

(L) Now, hold on, back up. What will we perceive... I mean, what is it going to say on the news? Everybody in New Mexico disappeared? (J) Or they all go nuts... (T) I would hazard to guess...

A: News blackout.

"Cooking will be fun too!" That's one of those interesting and cryptic phrases from the Cs, that I seem to store away somewhere to 'chew on' at later dates. :)

 

[Sol Logos]

Impressions and emotions are thought to be mental concepts, so it is hard (for me) to imagine how they could be nutritious. Yet many neuronal transmitters are located in the gut and stomach, not the brain, and based on much session material, negative emotions can be food for 4th density STS... So what is food for 4th density STO? Can information/light/knowledge be directly absorbed from Cosmic Mind like the proverbial "Lilies of the field"? I'm guessing there's some networking involved, and evidently, some 'cooking' as well...

The analogy about physical food being nourishing, like consuming good fats as opposed to refined sugar fits well for other forms of nourishment from an energetic stand point I feel. The distinction between receiving energy from an STO and an STS perceptive is that STO is nourishing to all involved the other (STS) has the illusion of nourishment, but just like if you ate a loaf of white bread, its actually damaging.

An example is truth given to others, when say the person that gives is motivated just to assist others without any other ulterior motive (not running STS programs) - then it's a gift. But that's also a form of energy, as information is energy, and this bit of energy is extended outwards. When it comes from that angle, it's not about sacrificing energy either, that's just another program, it's more like an expression of one's energy, and doing that from a position of being in one's flow, giving and receiving at the same moment - which is an STO state of being.

So a piece of truth, as energy, if we are open to receiving it (if we take that free will choice to), like good fats for your body is a form of energy which is nourishing for your soul, at least that make sense to me so far. On the other hand, when we're hungry for getting something from others (energy), without any regard for whether or not our feeding is damaging others, it's a predatory STS thing - it's about hunting to feed, it's all about I want, I need and I'm going to get it at any cost etc etc.

 

[Sol Logos]

Can information/light/knowledge be directly absorbed from Cosmic Mind like the proverbial "Lilies of the field"? I'm guessing there's some networking involved, and evidently, some 'cooking' as well...

We'll I suppose it must do, if we're in an STO state of being, that flow when giving and receiving is simultaneous - then that receiving is coming from somewhere - DCM perhaps? It seems to fit.

 

[Mark7]

Impressions and emotions are thought to be mental concepts, so it is hard (for me) to imagine how they could be nutritious. Yet many neuronal transmitters are located in the gut and stomach, not the brain, and based on much session material, negative emotions can be food for 4th density STS... So what is food for 4th density STO? Can information/light/knowledge be directly absorbed from Cosmic Mind like the proverbial "Lilies of the field"? I'm guessing there's some networking involved, and evidently, some 'cooking' as well...

The analogy about physical food being nourishing, like consuming good fats as opposed to refined sugar fits well for other forms of nourishment from an energetic stand point I feel. The distinction between receiving energy from an STO and an STS perceptive is that STO is nourishing to all involved the other (STS) has the illusion of nourishment, but just like if you ate a loaf of white bread, its actually damaging.

An example is truth given to others, when say the person that gives is motivated just to assist others without any other ulterior motive (not running STS programs) - then it's a gift. But that's also a form of energy, as information is energy, and this bit of energy is extended outwards. When it comes from that angle, it's not about sacrificing energy either, that's just another program, it's more like an expression of one's energy, and doing that from a position of being in one's flow, giving and receiving at the same moment - which is an STO state of being.

So a piece of truth, as energy, if we are open to receiving it (if we take that free will choice to), like good fats for your body is a form of energy which is nourishing for your soul, at least that make sense to me so far. On the other hand, when we're hungry for getting something from others (energy), without any regard for whether or not our feeding is damaging others, it's a predatory STS thing - it's about hunting to feed, it's all about I want, I need and I'm going to get it at any cost etc etc.

The concept of an outward flow makes sense, one's STO intent to serve others 'primes the pump' and increases knowledge and light in one's own being, nourishing one's soul as being part of the tribe or group - The Law of One.

By analogy, the concept of money, if it exists at all would be very different in an STO environment. Accumulation of vast personal wealth that sits stagnant and entropic in a personal bank account would not be part of such a dynamic it seems. Rather, money would be invested in strengthening and supporting all of society, (not just a 1%).

 

[kalibex]

This consciousness [STS*] hates, fears and deeply distrusts Creation, and just wants to effectively "roll over and go back to sleep" in eternal union with the "mother/father."

Thanks for that; good review - and a reminder that to flat-out reject that side of Creation (for example, to demand that reality be only STO) is itself born out of STS-ish Fear! (Oh the Irony)

Seems to me it's the consciousness that wibbles: "I-I-I'mm not so sure this [existence] was such a good idea!" (In my late-twenties, I think it was, I specifically remember snarling mentally into the aether (to whomever might be listening) that "Consciousness is a Sick Joke of the Universe!!")

And it subsequently is the consciousness that says: "I DEMAND that Reality shape itself to MY will!!!"

And now, it's been implied to us that, like the antagonists from Highlander, it's the consciousness that eventually tells itself, "There can be only One, baby, and it's gonna be ME!!"

* My addition

 

[SeekinTruth]

I'm not sure if we can FULLY comprehend STO at this stage, being STS and striving to be STO candidates, but I think that STO just gives all to those who ask. So, yeah as you guys mentioned, the giving and receiving is simultaneous (also if linear time is an illusion), but the key might just be that STO just gives - all STO beings give without thinking about what they'll receive in return. And this way they all also receive because they're all giving, the energy is constantly circulating and everyone gets what they need. It's almost as if it's a byproduct of the STO way of being, even if they do understand that what goes around comes around, they're not really concentrating on the getting part, just concentrating on giving all to those who ask / maintaining the STO polarity....

 

[Mark7]

I'm not sure if we can FULLY comprehend STO at this stage, being STS and striving to be STO candidates, but I think that STO just gives all to those who ask.

Agreed, and it's not only about comprehending, it's about BEing and DOing. We are not in that realm, have mismatching genetics and epigenetic factors, and our instinctual substrate would not work for STO, just to name a few problems, OSIT.

 

[Keyhole]

I'm not sure if we can FULLY comprehend STO at this stage, being STS and striving to be STO candidates, but I think that STO just gives all to those who ask. So, yeah as you guys mentioned, the giving and receiving is simultaneous (also if linear time is an illusion), but the key might just be that STO just gives - all STO beings give without thinking about what they'll receive in return. And this way they all also receive because they're all giving, the energy is constantly circulating and everyone gets what they need. It's almost as if it's a byproduct of the STO way of being, even if they do understand that what goes around comes around, they're not really concentrating on the getting part, just concentrating on giving all to those who ask / maintaining the STO polarity....

Yeah I guess STO would mean to give without expectation of what one might receive in return. Which comes back to non-anticipation - which the C's have said is an STO concept. As you said, receiving is the byproduct of giving rather than the original intention. If one merely gives in hopes of receiving, they are falling into the trap of STS in the guise of STO.

 

[Miss.K]

I'm not sure if we can FULLY comprehend STO at this stage, being STS and striving to be STO candidates, but I think that STO just gives all to those who ask. So, yeah as you guys mentioned, the giving and receiving is simultaneous (also if linear time is an illusion), but the key might just be that STO just gives - all STO beings give without thinking about what they'll receive in return. And this way they all also receive because they're all giving, the energy is constantly circulating and everyone gets what they need. It's almost as if it's a byproduct of the STO way of being, even if they do understand that what goes around comes around, they're not really concentrating on the getting part, just concentrating on giving all to those who ask / maintaining the STO polarity....

Though I do agree we often have hidden motives of getting something in return for what we give, I think that apart from that, what we don't fully understand is how to give the right way.
Even the Cs said no to Lizzies request of power over all, and that is not giving all to those who ask.
I think that if one knows the outcome of giving what someone asks, one can refuse to give what is asked, without that being thinking of what one gets in return, but more as a logical conclusion based on knowledge of the situation and the probable outcome (like making the whole universe STS would ultimately mean death of the universe including Lizzies).

And the outcome of each situation is what we are not yet able to determine. (apart from when we lie to ourselves about our motives)

Does that make sense?

 

[Sol Logos]

By analogy, the concept of money, if it exists at all would be very different in an STO environment. Accumulation of vast personal wealth that sits stagnant and entropic in a personal bank account would not be part of such a dynamic it seems. Rather, money would be invested in strengthening and supporting all of society, (not just a 1%).

As a model we'd probably see it as a gift economy, there's some more or less successful versions of gift based economies. I reckon though its less about the model and more about the participants that determines how successful gift economies are. If we say for example that information is energy and an economy in simple terms is about flows of energy (like the money based economy is), then this forum is actually a good example of a successful gift economy. What I mean is that here valuable information (energy) flows freely without a high level of expectation (or anticipation) of return. Yet there is an implicit return that is nourishing to many. Obviously there's degrees of anticipation but there's also a structure in place to call that out and minimise its negative impact.

 

[s-kur]

Very good thread, guys, a lot to ponder about.

I would like to add a bit of my perception here. It based on my program that was managed and reversed a bit. During all my life I felt ove for every thing I received which was followed with shame and desire to reject further gifts to avoid this feelings and pain. Reading and considering all the material and applying the knowledge I suddenly have seen the glimpse. As far as I know the most of people who don't commit the Work want to recieve, all that New Age agenda consisting of YCYOR.

My program have been converted as I realized these things which origins is manipulative and deteriorative what caused that shame and owe feelings...To make it more comprehensive I would describe it like receiving without any asking. "Love & light artillery".

The converting means reversing "to give in order to get" to "to give for that you already have". Every time and every moment we recieve something from Universe whether it goods or lessons, what we need to do is convert and express it, give it back to the environment that will provide the flow(applying all the things we know about the Work and STO principles).

I think at the moment we are proveded such an environment where we can provide the energy for paying all our being that creates the flow(feedback). At the same time giving to inconsistent source (even giving back to manipulative, love-bomb-delivery source, or in terms of frequency)) it's just interrupts the flow(swallowing and abscence of the feebacka). Regarding asking, I think, it supposes expanding. Not striving to expand but expanding per se. I.e. response to the request suppose the possibility of expanding the spiral, so to speak.

my 2 cents

 

[SeekinTruth]

@Miss.K

Yup, that's also one of our problems. We have to know what real asking is, and not confuse it with manipulations. So, again, knowledge is necessary. But, like anything else, we improve with consistent practice, striving for STO.

 

[Miss.K]

@Miss.K

Yup, that's also one of our problems. We have to know what real asking is, and not confuse it with manipulations. So, again, knowledge is necessary. But, like anything else, we improve with consistent practice, striving for STO.

Thanks Seeking Truth :)