Study and Discussion of the Moving Center

[Ðekel]

Prometeo,

Thank you, I think that was pretty obvious. Maybe I didn't write it well, so the question it is, does everyone produces the same amount of sexual energy?

well.. i'd have to say no.
there are REAL asexuals out there.
i've known at least two people who simply are not interested in sex.
there is a lack of public awareness about asexuals, in that they are thought by a lot of people to be sexually inhibited or else abstinent for religious reasons, and while this is in fact the case for many people who practice celibacy, it is definitely not the case for true asexuals.

i realize your question is in regards to the actual energy / substance itself, but then, if it does not express itself solely in sexual vectors, maybe it should not be labelled a 'sexual' energy / substance in the first place.
what do you think ?

 

[cubbex]

:) I think it should be labeled sexual energy because it has to be with creativity, as I've read on other threads referring to this energy as sexual energy. If not, well I'm just confusing myself with the concepts.

Where did you find that quote on imagination, Prometeo? It would be interesting to learn more about the moving center and its role in hijacking proper intellectual function via somatic imagination.... ;D

Hey thanks for your help.

Which quote? the one I gave to orange? it's on this thread, in Laura's compilation.

 

[OrangeScorpion]

Moving center oriented daydreams may include a more sensation oriented motif. Dreaming of great exploits in sporting activities could be an example. Physical confrontations with "bad guys" where one emerges victorious through physical skills would be another.

I think those kind of dreams can be emotional oriented as well. For example when one feels jealous/happy/depressed, the person might fantasize about being the great hero who beats all the bad guys and gets a lot of praise etc. So I think it's a bit literal to think that moving center oriented daydreams refer primarily to fantasies in which the body is the main focus, though I could be totally wrong. I was thinking more in these lines:

For example, let's say that for the first time you have to figure out how to walk to the busstation from your house. The first day you will pay attention to where you're walking, you will look at the signs to see where you have to go, you will watch your step occasionally etc. The second day, same thing. But after some days, you kinda know where the busstation is and how to get there, so the movement towards the busstation becomes somewhat mechanical. And when it does, the focus is not anymore on the roads and on one's movement, but can fly away in fantasyland, and you can start fantasizing about all kinds of things.

So this could be an example of a ''motive for daydreaming that lies in the moving center'': as the movement becomes a habit, one becomes inclined to daydream and as G. puts it, ''is due partly to the laziness of the thinking center.''

Hi Oxajil!

I think you're talking about something different from what Obyvatel says. Your example is also valid to a fantasy that stems from the emotional center. This example would also be true for a fantasy that originates from the thinking center.

You say the moving center “carries on life” while the thinking center works the fantasy, but we still don't know what center has initiated this fantasy, or so I think.

Make a daily habit facilitates daydreaming, but it does not imply that this daydreaming be initiated in the motor center, could be initiated in the emotional or thinking center.

I do not know if I'm explaining correctly, there is a need to fantasize, and this need can come from any of the centers regardless of what this fantasy "runs" as you said....

Or perhaps I'm not understanding anything about anything. ;)

 

[obyvatel]

[quote author=ISOTM]
"Moving center working for thinking center produces, for example, mechanical reading or mechanical listening, as when a man reads or listens to nothing but words and is utterly unconscious of what he is reading or hearing. This generally happens when attention, that is, the direction of the thinking center's activity, is occupied with something else and when the moving center is trying to replace the absent thinking center; but this very easily becomes a habit, because the thinking center is generally distracted not by useful work, by thought, or by contemplation, but simply by daydreaming or by imagination.

"'Imagination' is one of the principal sources of the wrong work of centers. Each center has its own form of imagination and daydreaming, but as a rule both the moving and the emotional centers make use of the thinking center which very readily places itself at their disposal for this purpose, because daydreaming corresponds to its own inclinations. Daydreaming is absolutely the opposite of 'useful' mental activity. 'Useful' in this case means activity directed towards a definite aim and undertaken for the sake of obtaining a definite result. Daydreaming does not pursue any aim, does not strive after any result. The motive for daydreaming always lies in the emotional or in the moving center. The actual process is carried on by the thinking center. The inclination to daydream is due partly to the laziness of the thinking center, that is, its attempts to avoid the efforts connected with work directed towards a definite aim and going in a definite direction, and partly to the tendency of the emotional and the moving centers to repeat to themselves, to keep alive or to recreate experiences, both pleasant and unpleasant, that have been previously lived through or 'imagined.' Daydreaming of disagreeable, morbid things is very characteristic of the unbalanced state of the human machine, After all, one can understand daydreaming of a pleasant kind and find logical justification for it. Daydreaming of an unpleasant character is an utter absurdity. And yet many people spend nine tenths of their lives in just such painful daydreams about misfortunes which may overtake them or their family, about illnesses they may contract or sufferings they will have to endure. Imagination and daydreaming are instances of the wrong work of the thinking center.
[/quote]

In Oxajil's example of walking to the bus-stop, if one lets the moving center to do its job of taking the person to the destination while engaging the intellectual center in contemplation or in directed "useful" thought, it would be an example of a right work of the centers - osit.

The tendency of the emotional and moving centers of recreating pleasant or unpleasant experiences - actual or imagined - causes daydreams if the intellectual center cannot stand apart and help analyze and observe the phenomenon. If the intellectual center goes with the flow and immerses in the images that are arising, it is daydreaming and useless. If the intellectual center can stand apart and observe the phenomenon and even participate in it without being identified with the drama, then it becomes a technique of "active imagination" described in Jungian psychology. In a different way, the exercise of journaling described in the Redirect thread is also an example of intellectual center standing apart from the drama and recording it as an observer.

Coming back to OrangeScorpion's question about distinguishing between daydreams caused by emotional and moving centers, I would think that the type of experience being recreated could give a clue. The daydream could be a mixture of both moving and emotional center activities. Take for example a pleasant experience of recreating a feat in sports say basketball. A fantasy of hitting the winning basket at the buzzer through a jump-shot could invoke a rush of adrenaline and the euphoric sensation. (This type of imagery is powerful and professional athletes are said to actively use such techniques to improve performance). The same fantasy could also be focused on the feeling of pride and basking in the adulation of screaming fans. If the thrill of a perfectly executed technique is the centerpiece of the fantasy in this example, I would consider it to be more moving-center initiated. If the pride and glory being imagined is more important, then I would consider it to be more emotional center oriented. However, the fantasy could be a mixture of both as well.

Don't know if this clarifies the question or not - so take fwiw

 

[OrangeScorpion]

Thanks for your answers, Obyvatel... Yes, clarifies the question for me.

 

[3DStudent]

Great thread, thanks for all of the replies. This has made me wonder what type I am. I've thought that I am a thinking Man 3. I go into things through a lot of mental consideration. And I have OCD so am pretty obsessive in the thought department.

But after reading, I wonder if I am a lazy #1. Because I am pretty lazy. I used to do a lot more activity playing outside as a kid, but I guess that's so for everyone. I really don't consider myself smart or an intellectual, I just got thrown into that group when schooling started to become a major part of life.

And as a young kid, I was also very emotional. Very timid and fearful. I did not like scary movies or being around a lot of people. Nor being separated from my mother. So I wonder also if I'm like a stunted #2.

It's interesting to know things about yourself. But maybe knowing your type isn't that important.

 

[Ðekel]

3D Student,

It's interesting to know things about yourself. But maybe knowing your type isn't that important.

i agree.

placing yourself within one label sort of limits your options in that you start to view yourself as only being able to learn in one way.

one moment you might be having a "problem" that is best solved utilizing a technique designed for Man3, the next you might be facing an issue which is best solved via a technique for Man1, etc'
i think this is exactly what differentiates Ways 1,2 & 3 from the Fourth.. being aware of all the paths, and utilizing the right technique for the right hurdle. i.e. not limiting yourself to only one path.

my two cents on it.

 

[beetlemaniac]

Great thread, thanks for all of the replies. This has made me wonder what type I am. I've thought that I am a thinking Man 3. I go into things through a lot of mental consideration. And I have OCD so am pretty obsessive in the thought department.

But after reading, I wonder if I am a lazy #1. Because I am pretty lazy. I used to do a lot more activity playing outside as a kid, but I guess that's so for everyone. I really don't consider myself smart or an intellectual, I just got thrown into that group when schooling started to become a major part of life.

And as a young kid, I was also very emotional. Very timid and fearful. I did not like scary movies or being around a lot of people. Nor being separated from my mother. So I wonder also if I'm like a stunted #2.

It's interesting to know things about yourself. But maybe knowing your type isn't that important.

I thought of my own type very much in the same way you have written. Now it seems to me that what we are seeing is just a progressive "deterioration" of the functioning of all the centers as we are exposed to all the repressing influences while growing up. Believing in lies, losing our power to externals. It could be that our true beings are so badly obscured that knowing our type would be almost impossible.

3D Student,

It's interesting to know things about yourself. But maybe knowing your type isn't that important.

i agree.

placing yourself within one label sort of limits your options in that you start to view yourself as only being able to learn in one way.

one moment you might be having a "problem" that is best solved utilizing a technique designed for Man3, the next you might be facing an issue which is best solved via a technique for Man1, etc'
i think this is exactly what differentiates Ways 1,2 & 3 from the Fourth.. being aware of all the paths, and utilizing the right technique for the right hurdle. i.e. not limiting yourself to only one path.

my two cents on it.

I agree as well. But I am seeing that having a center of gravity in the intellectual center is important. Although just saying that is easier than doing it since emotional and moving center thinking can seem like good thinking. So it seems always important to ask oneself, "Why am I thinking about this?" to reveal any hidden motives of the emotional and moving centers. Thinking further about it, maybe what is being achieved is the thinking center helping to bring all the other lower centers into alignment to function harmoniously. As obyvatel says, journaling helps tremendously with this. Also does the prayer before going to bed.

 

[Ðekel]

I agree as well. But I am seeing that having a center of gravity in the intellectual center is important. Although just saying that is easier than doing it since emotional and moving center thinking can seem like good thinking. So it seems always important to ask oneself, "Why am I thinking about this?" to reveal any hidden motives of the emotional and moving centers. Thinking further about it, maybe what is being achieved is the thinking center helping to bring all the other lower centers into alignment to function harmoniously. As obyvatel says, journaling helps tremendously with this. Also does the prayer before going to bed.

yeah, Bettlemaniac

this has sorta become second nature to me over time. as well as, "Why am i thinking THIS about this"m in other words "Why am i thinking about this in this way"..

i feel this practice makes us more and more aware of the "Conductor" in us. The "I" that leads.

 

[beetlemaniac]

Recently went for a hiking trip with my parents. It was quite strenuous as I have not been exercising regularly but it was satisfying. I also tried to see what I could do with my Moving center, to open up new possibilities. While hiking I noticed very much excess thinking activity, so I practiced to tune my attention away from that to my body and the external environment. The hiking activity became more interesting, real, I was more engaged.

Later, I started getting a fatigued feeling due to tiredness and negative thoughts of tiredness came up. I decided to change tack by unfocusing from the moving center which almost seemed like it was complaining to me. I focused on positive emotion to push further, with good results. I basically gave myself encouragement with each step I made and ignored moving center protestations.

But soon the fatigue was getting unbearable, so I started taking breaks. Then I thought of moving slowly instead of my usual fast pace. It felt odd to move slowly, I am so used to the fast motions. I remember a feeling of impatience arising as I tried to make myself move much slower than I normally would. The feeling of impatience never went away, really. The moving center is an interesting thing.

 

[obyvatel]

Then I thought of moving slowly instead of my usual fast pace. It felt odd to move slowly, I am so used to the fast motions. I remember a feeling of impatience arising as I tried to make myself move much slower than I normally would. The feeling of impatience never went away, really. The moving center is an interesting thing.

It is an interesting observation, beetlemaniac. If you are used to fast motions, you would need deliberate effort and attention to slow down. This break in the habit (of moving fast) would mean that you can no longer operate on autopilot - so usual mental chatter which could be a form of daydreaming where the emotional or moving center is recreating old experiences using the intellectual center - can no longer continue undisturbed. Gurdjieff stated that to self-observe, one must break the patterns of habitual behavior. So maybe setting aside some time for deliberate slow movements may be useful? But be careful not to attract too much public attention though. I try this sometimes when walking my dog at night and even the dog gives me suspicious looks :) It could also be interesting for you to see whether you have the tendency to rush through in other areas of life as well.

 

[beetlemaniac]

It is an interesting observation, beetlemaniac. If you are used to fast motions, you would need deliberate effort and attention to slow down. This break in the habit (of moving fast) would mean that you can no longer operate on autopilot - so usual mental chatter which could be a form of daydreaming where the emotional or moving center is recreating old experiences using the intellectual center - can no longer continue undisturbed.

Thank you for the explanation, obyvatel, it really does resonate with my experience. Going with that feeling of impatience and not trying to avoid it, seems like intentional suffering to me.

Gurdjieff stated that to self-observe, one must break the patterns of habitual behavior. So maybe setting aside some time for deliberate slow movements may be useful?

Yeah that's a great idea that also crossed my mind. I find taking the time to do things with deliberation is almost therapeutic in itself, be it washing the dishes or having a shower. On the other hand, one thing I'd like to do faster is reading. I'm trying out speed reading, concentrating on the visual, symbolic (taking in phrases and words visually as symbols, bypassing the vocalisation) & emotional aspects of it that seem to be neglected. What is really strong in my old way of reading is the auditory part (vocalisation/voice in the head), which often descends into mechanical reading.

But be careful not to attract too much public attention though. I try this sometimes when walking my dog at night and even the dog gives me suspicious looks :)

I find it interesting that you mention that as I have been contemplating a little about the way others see me. I always have this predator making me think that I look foolish and things like that, so nowadays I tend to do things that *may* attract attention, as a way to go against the predator. But I have never really thought about how it would really affect others.

It could also be interesting for you to see whether you have the tendency to rush through in other areas of life as well.

I definitely do, it's as Gurdjieff says, a wasting of unnecessary energy on haste. Sounds like the activity of a troubled emotional center? Moving center taking the energy of the negative emotions? Need more observation, thank you for this.

 

[Turgon]

A few observation's made in regards to the work and usurption of energy of my centres.

You have a weakness, a sickness; you must not think with your feeling; you must think with your head. To think with your feeling is a weakness, a sickness.

Last week, I was in a very emotional state, as I had met a girl who I later became involved with in a relationship. It was an unusual situation because her work visa was expiring so she was preparing to leave to go back to her home country. I had found this to be very difficult to deal with, as much as I was trying to stay 'strong' or manly, I still felt emotional and wanting to cry at times, but for some reason, always trying to prevent it from going on too long.

While at work, which I find myself drifting into imagination at quite often - most likely due to the excess repetitiveness of the work, causing my moving centre to go fully into auto-pilot - I started to delve into daydreaming about networking about the relationship. My mind would be racing during these times quite fast, attempting to anticipate what the feedback might be, etc. After a while, I noticed that there was an emotional flavour to these thoughts, that of sadness, mixed with bitterness and at times anger when my mind would give the impression of networking about this as being that of a child being forced to tell a judgemental parent something. Which is of course not the case.

I had initially thought this was the case:

The emotional center working for the thinking center brings unnecessary nervousness, feverishness, and hurry into situations where, on the contrary, calm judgment and deliberation are essential.

Because of the somewhat frenetic pace my mind was working at. Although I think now I was lying to myself and not actually thinking with the wrong centre but instead caught in daydreams and re-living emotional experiences.

The inclination to daydream is due partly to the laziness of the thinking center, that is, its attempts to avoid the efforts connected with work directed towards a definite aim and going in a definite direction, and partly to the tendency of the emotional and the moving centers to repeat to themselves, to keep alive or to recreate experiences, both pleasant and unpleasant, that have been previously lived through or 'imagined.'

And having my Moving Centre moving mechanically may have been the trigger point to this because I wasn't engaged in any body awareness. As time went by, I stopped to ask my intellect where all these thoughts were coming from and where am I going with this. My body, moving at a fast pace, also stopped with the asking of this question, and I realized that my emotional centre had been usurping my intellect for daydreaming.

'Imagination' is one of the principal sources of the wrong work of centers. Each center has its own form of imagination and daydreaming, but as a rule both the moving and the emotional centers make use of the thinking center which very readily places itself at their disposal for this purpose, because daydreaming corresponds to its own inclinations. The motive for daydreaming always lies in the emotional or in the moving center.

This was a really important realization at that point, because my mind started to slow down, and I may be wrong in this, but I think because of the strong emotions I was feeling and denying, all that energy went to my intellect, which added a 'negative' feel to them as the energy was not being used from the right centre. Once I stopped to acknowledge these strong emotions, I went for a break and actually cried over her leaving. I didn't realize how much longing and sadness I felt and thought I had processed all of this already.

 

[Ollie]

...
Hi OrangeScorpion,
From my personal experiences, the difference between daydreams initiated by the moving center or the emotional center lies in the underlying flavor of the activity which is carried out by the intellectual center.

In case of emotional daydreaming, the activity would have some emotion as the underlying motif.

For me, the underlying emotional motif is fear, fear of loss in particular.

... This break in the habit (of moving fast) would mean that you can no longer operate on autopilot - so usual mental chatter which could be a form of daydreaming where the emotional ... is recreating old experiences using the intellectual center - can no longer continue undisturbed.

Thank you for the explanation, obyvatel, it really does resonate with my experience. Going with that feeling of impatience and not trying to avoid it, seems like intentional suffering to me.

This works fro me too! :) Noted, too, what to do with impatience - which is another form of fear of loss for me.

Gurdjieff stated that to self-observe, one must break the patterns of habitual behavior. So maybe setting aside some time for deliberate slow movements may be useful?

... taking the time to do things with deliberation ...

This is something that I've started working on today. :) Thanks.

It could also be interesting for you to see whether you have the tendency to rush through in other areas of life as well.

I definitely do, it's as Gurdjieff says, a wasting of unnecessary energy on haste. Sounds like the activity of a troubled emotional center? ...

This builds on where I think my impatience lies :), and is definitely a case of a troubled emotional centre.

The emotional center working for the thinking center brings unnecessary nervousness, feverishness, and hurry into situations where, on the contrary, calm judgment and deliberation are essential.

I can empathise with that from personal experience - for me, it's for life in in general. :)

Because of the somewhat frenetic pace my mind was working at. Although I think now I was lying to myself and not actually thinking with the wrong centre but instead caught in daydreams and re-living emotional experiences.

The inclination to daydream is due partly to the laziness of the thinking center, that is, its attempts to avoid the efforts connected with work directed towards a definite aim and going in a definite direction, and partly to the tendency of the emotional ... centers to repeat to themselves, to keep alive or to recreate experiences, both pleasant and unpleasant, that have been previously lived through or 'imagined.'

This is an important point. Yes, this is how I tend to self-sabotage. It seems to be a case of revisiting 'transient' effects, rather than something that is lasting. So, in order to 'try' to make it lasting (alive), it is revisited many times - or so it seems.

'Imagination' is one of the principal sources of the wrong work of centers. Each center has its own form of imagination and daydreaming, but as a rule both the moving and the emotional centers make use of the thinking center which very readily places itself at their disposal for this purpose, because daydreaming corresponds to its own inclinations. The motive for daydreaming always lies in the emotional or in the moving center.

I agree, this is motivated at a deep level in me.

This was a really important realization at that point, because my mind started to slow down, and I may be wrong in this, but I think because of the strong emotions I was feeling and denying, all that energy went to my intellect, which added a 'negative' feel to them as the energy was not being used from the right centre. Once I stopped to acknowledge these strong emotions, I went for a break and actually cried over her leaving. I didn't realize how much longing and sadness I felt and thought I had processed all of this already.

Thank you for that Turgon, I'll have a go at putting this into practice.

Edit: added sentences about revisiting 'experiences'.

 

[whitecoast]

This is an important point. Yes, this is how I
tend to self-sabotage . It seems to be a case of
revisiting 'transient' effects, rather than
something that is lasting. So, in order to 'try' to
make it lasting (alive) , it is revisited many times
- or so it seems.

I have almost exactly the same problem. Maybe it means neurologically that there are some triggers that bring up dissociative effects that aren't integrated properly into our waking consciousness, so our mind replays a certain primal scene and "freeze" effect because you used it in the past and never let it go? I read about that in The Myth of Sanity, and it could refer to that type of experience, even just if on the daydreaming level...

The discussion about the lazy thinking center taking its cue from the moving center really fascinates me, because I've made a recent realization: the extent to which I fantasize is pervasive, especially while I'm on kinesthetic autopilot, to the point that it interferes with my own ability to work toward aims. Preliminary experiments in deliberate slowing have an interesting effect: my movements are more jerky under lower periods of focus, like the moving center is trying to regain its own accustomed function. During this time my thoughts are predictably more focused on the present as well.

Another interesting effect (sorry if this is more thinking center focused) I found is that once my mind accomplishes a specific creative task, it immediately autopilots back into imagination again :unless I consciously switch my mind off. Otherwise my moving or emotional center immediately regains control. Does that mean my moving center is using the energy of my thinking center? I have sex abuse in the thinking center, so could it be possible that that comes from my thinking center trying to recover some of the energy my moving center usurps? Is there a way to tell?