Study and Discussion of the Moving Center

[Turgon]

The discussion about the lazy thinking center taking its cue from the living center really fascinates me

I don't remember reading anything about this. Are you mistaking living centre for another centre?

the extent to which I fantasize is pervasive, especially while I'm on kinesthetic autopilot, to the point that it interferes with my own ability to work toward aims. Preliminary experiments in deliberate slowing have an interesting effect: my movements are more jerky under lower periods of focus, like the moving center is trying to regain its own accustomed function. During this time my thoughts are predictably more focused on the present as well.

A loss of connection or 'feel' of the body allows the mind to delve completely into fantasy. Maybe moving into auto-pilot in one centre causes a reaction in another centre to go into automatic pilot, which leads to excess fantasies and daydreaming. In An Unspoken Voice, Levine talks about this extensively. How traumatized people are always going through habitual thought patterns but are completely unaware of the bodies happenings and sensations, because they are afraid of them.

I notice this too. When I get lost in my thoughts, or ramble on mechanically, I realize partly through I've lost awareness of what's happening in my body and have to come back to that. Usually there's a pause in my thoughts at this point, which can be a bit uncomfortable when in a conversation with someone. The uncomfortability can cause my bodily sensations to become tense and flat, lacking in depth.

Slow, deliberate movements seems to put me into a calm state, able to process what I'm thinking and saying much better, but it's damn near impossible to maintain! And when I try to forcefully do it, my slow movements seem very contrived and jerky, causing sometimes unbearable internal sensations. But, learning to stay present to them and not try to avoid it has been helping to gain better containment of the sensations and transmute them a bit at a time. Slowly but surely, though.

 

[cubbex]

To me Turgon, it looks that your centers are working wrongly. There have to be some automatic movements on the body, par of the moving center, isn't there that trying to control those automatic movements with the intellectual center makes them slow and hard to control, and also I think very difficult to maintain. If I misunderstood your situation please tell me.

Also why is so important to sense your sensations (lol), I mean I can't grasp the meaning of it, transmute them to what? I know we need to have control of our moving center is important, but why we need to focus on the sensations?

It is an interesting observation, beetlemaniac. If you are used to fast motions, you would need deliberate effort and attention to slow down. This break in the habit (of moving fast) would mean that you can no longer operate on autopilot - so usual mental chatter which could be a form of daydreaming where the emotional or moving center is recreating old experiences using the intellectual center - can no longer continue undisturbed. Gurdjieff stated that to self-observe, one must break the patterns of habitual behavior. So maybe setting aside some time for deliberate slow movements may be useful? But be careful not to attract too much public attention though. I try this sometimes when walking my dog at night and even the dog gives me suspicious looks :) It could also be interesting for you to see whether you have the tendency to rush through in other areas of life as well.

O well, this change everything. I'm confused now.

 

[Turgon]

To me Turgon, it looks that your centers are working wrongly.

Understatement of the year! :P

There have to be some automatic movements on the body, par of the moving center, isn't there that trying to control those automatic movements with the intellectual center makes them slow and hard to control, and also I think very difficult to maintain. If I misunderstood your situation please tell me.

I don't want to control each, individual movement that happens in my body, but not lose touch with awareness of my body overall. Meaning, if I get lost in thoughts, I become complelely unaware of what is happening in my body, and get stuck in my head. There's a disconnect.

Also why is so important to sense your sensations (lol), I mean I can't grasp the meaning of it, transmute them to what? I know we need to have control of our moving center is important, but why we need to focus on the sensations?

I think reading In An Unspoken Voice - Peter Levine will explain that more fully than I can. But sensate, for me is not the end goal, but a way to transform how I feel in my body, which I notice affects how I think and interact with the world at large. Deep, warm sensations, or sensate that causes me to feel 'safe' also cause my thinking to change and become more aware and present which changes my overall disposition and the way I engage in life. Constrictive, tense sensations cause me to retract and shell up. I'm learning to cope with the uncomfortable sensations, not let it control me as much and fall into patterns, and find a way through them quicker, easier, and with practice. Sometimes when doing this, or working through them without identifying so much, the actual sensations change to more 'positive oriented sensate. When this happens, from where I stand at that point, my foundations feel like they are built on something real and solid and I can Be more than a mish-mash of paranoia and fear in that situation, if that makes sense.

A work in progress, though.

 

[cubbex]

Ok now I understand what you meant by that, or hope so, that our body sensations determine our feelings and thinking. O observed this long ago, and so tried to control myself anytime I observed it.

I want to mention that I had a similar event like you about a relationship a year ago, now I understand the purpose of it on my life, you know, sometimes I think that there's no sense to live those dramas, but after reading others I see that those events are opportunities to work on ourselves. Thank you turgon.

 

[obyvatel]

To me Turgon, it looks that your centers are working wrongly. There have to be some automatic movements on the body, par of the moving center, isn't there that trying to control those automatic movements with the intellectual center makes them slow and hard to control, and also I think very difficult to maintain.

Almost everybody's centers work wrongly in the sense that one center hijacks the other - like in the context of daydreams, the moving and emotional centers hijack the intellectual center to relive old patterns. Gurdjieff suggested breaking up one's habitual postures and patterns to facilitate awareness and self-observation. Suppose I am daydreaming while walking at a pace that is natural and comfortable for me. If I suddenly change my pace, making it fast or slow, it will temporarily break the hold of daydreaming and I would have to focus consciously in order to maintain that new pace. In that moment I may become aware of the fact that I was daydreaming.

Moving slowly is difficult at first. However it has some additional benefits if done the right way. Just because we move fast does not mean that we do it right in the sense of proper balance, alignment and weight distributions. For example, some martial arts like aikido and taichi emphasize slow and graceful movements. If one relearns to perform basic movements with the correct postural alignments - which is difficult and awckward at first - then one learns to save energy. Lot of energy is wasted in unnecessary muscular tensions and postural misalignments which when saved can be used for other more useful purposes.

 

[Ollie]

This is an important point. Yes, this is how I
tend to self-sabotage . It seems to be a case of
revisiting 'transient' effects, rather than
something that is lasting. So, in order to 'try' to
make it lasting (alive) , it is revisited many times
- or so it seems.

I have almost exactly the same problem. Maybe it means neurologically that there are some triggers that bring up dissociative effects that aren't integrated properly into our waking consciousness, so our mind replays a certain primal scene and "freeze" effect because you used it in the past and never let it go? I read about that in The Myth of Sanity, and it could refer to that type of experience, even just if on the daydreaming level...

Yes, that's how I see it, in my case, from neo-natal trauma.

Moving slowly is difficult at first. However it has some additional benefits if done the right way. Just because we move fast does not mean that we do it right in the sense of proper balance, alignment and weight distributions. For example, some martial arts like aikido and taichi emphasize slow and graceful movements. If one relearns to perform basic movements with the correct postural alignments - which is difficult and awckward at first - then one learns to save energy. Lot of energy is wasted in unnecessary muscular tensions and postural misalignments which when saved can be used for other more useful purposes.

A tense body is another effect of neo-natal trauma. Thank you for reminding me about Tai Chi (and the Alexander Technique by association for me) which I have yet to get round to exploring, as I believe the effects may lead beneficially to reduced muscular tension for the very reason - relearning body movements with the correct postural alignments.

 

[cubbex]

It could be that, that's the reason of some therapies that recommend to work on something to distract us from negative thoughts, or daydreaming produced by negative feelings? like the positive dissociation, so you break the circuit?

 

[Ollie]

It could be that, that's the reason of some therapies that recommend to work on something to distract us from negative thoughts, or daydreaming produced by negative feelings? like the positive dissociation, so you break the circuit?

If you read Levine's work, then what is important for 'breaking the circuit' is to work somatically - with the body - for any form of lasting effect. A problem with working on distracting us from negative thoughts is the risk of identification with the task, thus blocking out - temporarily - those negative thoughts and daydreams, which return on completing the task. The Predator's Mind is very resourceful and persistent in its feeding habits.

 

[Oxajil]

Almost everybody's centers work wrongly in the sense that one center hijacks the other - like in the context of daydreams, the moving and emotional centers hijack the intellectual center to relive old patterns. Gurdjieff suggested breaking up one's habitual postures and patterns to facilitate awareness and self-observation.

If I remember correctly G. also mentioned that habits may be replaced by other habits, and that they can be totally unrelated. For example, if you fight the habit of daydreaming, and you succeed to some extent, you might start to bite your nails a lot (a new habit), without even noticing. So keeping an eye out on new negative habits developing could be helpful.

 

[Color]

If I remember correctly G. also mentioned that habits may be replaced by other habits, and that they can be totally unrelated. For example, if you fight the habit of daydreaming, and you succeed to some extent, you might start to bite your nails a lot (a new habit), without even noticing. So keeping an eye out on new negative habits developing could be helpful.

My therapist told me something along those lines. He said that when the programming or trauma is experienced and isn't resolved, it finds a path of manifesting itself through some habit, an addiction, etc. When people deal with the outcome only, fighting only the habit for example, the trauma only finds a new path, way to express itself. He always emphasized how it's important to find the physical manifestation, the emotional background and the inner reasoning, thinking patterns connected with it. Only when the trauma is dealt with on all those levels, one can say it's healed. Imho, it's very close to the Work.

 

[beetlemaniac]

If I remember correctly G. also mentioned that habits may be replaced by other habits, and that they can be totally unrelated. For example, if you fight the habit of daydreaming, and you succeed to some extent, you might start to bite your nails a lot (a new habit), without even noticing. So keeping an eye out on new negative habits developing could be helpful.

My therapist told me something along those lines. He said that when the programming or trauma is experienced and isn't resolved, it finds a path of manifesting itself through some habit, an addiction, etc. When people deal with the outcome only, fighting only the habit for example, the trauma only finds a new path, way to express itself. He always emphasized how it's important to find the physical manifestation, the emotional background and the inner reasoning, thinking patterns connected with it. Only when the trauma is dealt with on all those levels, one can say it's healed. Imho, it's very close to the Work.

Something like pulling the weed out at it's root? Gurdjieff also said that at certain points we will be able to initiate self-change:

"So that if one is working on oneself properly, one must consider the possible supplementary changes (like a new habit or addiction), and take them into account beforehand. Only in this way is it possible to avoid undesirable changes, or the appearance of qualities which are utterly opposed to the aim and the direction of the work.
"But in the general plan of the work and the functions of the human machine there are certain points in which a change may be brought about without giving rise to any supplementary results.
"It is necessary to know what these points are and it is necessary to know how to approach them, for if one does not begin with them one will either get no result at all or wrong and undesirable results.

In the preceding paragraphs he also emphasizes on the fact that in changing one thing we disrupt the balance in the system, so the change provokes another unintended or supplementary change. I'm wondering about what he really meant by "points of change." Could it mean a certain point in time, where one has collected sufficient data to see the real cause of the behaviour? Like digging down into the earth until we find the ends of the root so as to pull the weed out cleanly.

 

[obyvatel]

In the preceding paragraphs he also emphasizes on the fact that in changing one thing we disrupt the balance in the system, so the change provokes another unintended or supplementary change.

That could be the case when the will power is enough to completely remove a habit by itself. It is theoretically possible but usually not probable. The point in asking to "move slow deliberately" in this specific context was to temporarily disrupt a habitual pattern so that self-observation can take place. If you have a deep ingrained habit of doing things in a particular way, then just reading and trying to practice doing something different is not likely to be successful all the time. If someone struggles with oneself in this way, the point may become clear. Here is a relevant ISOTM quote that deals with this topic.

[quote author=ISOTM]
"Observation of the activity of imagination and daydreaming forms a very important part of self-study.

"The next object of self-observation must be habits in general. Every grown-up man consists wholly of habits, although he is often unaware of it and even denies having any habits at all. This can never be the case. All three centers are filled with habits and a man can never know himself until he has studied all his habits. The observation and the study of habits is particularly difficult because, in order to see and 'record' them, one must escape from them, free oneself from them, if only for a moment. So long as a man is governed by a particular habit, he does not observe it, but at the very first attempt, however feeble, to struggle against it, he feels it and notices it. Therefore in order to observe and study habits one must try to struggle against them. This opens up a practical method of self-observation. It has been said before that a man cannot change anything in himself, that he can only observe and 'record.' This is true. But it is also true that a man cannot observe and 'record' anything if he does not try to struggle with himself, that is, with his habits. This struggle cannot yield direct results, that is to say, it cannot lead to any change, especially to any permanent and lasting change. But it shows what is there. Without a struggle a man cannot see what he consists of. The struggle with small habits is very difficult and boring, but without it self-observation is impossible.

"Even at the first attempt to study the elementary activity of the moving center a man comes up against habits. For instance, a man may want to study his movements, may want to observe how he walks. But he will never succeed in doing so for more than a moment if he continues to walk in the usual way. But if he understands that his usual way of walking consists of a number of habits, for instance, of taking steps of a certain length, walking at a certain speed, and so on, and lie tries to alter them, that is, to walk faster or slower, to take bigger or smaller steps, he will be able to observe himself and to study his movements as he walks. If a man wants to observe himself when he is writing, he must take note of how he holds his pen and try to hold it in a different way from usual; observation will then become possible. In order to observe himself a man must try to walk not in his habitual way, he must sit in unaccustomed attitudes, he must stand when he is accustomed to sit, he must sit when he is accustomed to stand, and he must make with his left hand the movements he is accustomed to make with his right hand and vice versa. All this will enable him to observe himself and study the habits and associations of the moving center.
[/quote]


[quote author=beetlemaniac]
I'm wondering about what he really meant by "points of change." Could it mean a certain point in time, where one has collected sufficient data to see the real cause of the behaviour? Like digging down into the earth until we find the ends of the root so as to pull the weed out cleanly.
[/quote]

Perhaps. But how much is "sufficient data"? I do not think these questions render themselves for easy practical answers. And sometimes the lazy mind latches on to the vagueness aspect of this point and goes into the realm of imagination. IMO the more practical approach is that of a natural scientist studying behavior of a species with wonder and curiosity and trying to observe, record and understand what he sees in small incremental steps. Points of change may then be arrived at naturally in this experiential approach. Deeper changes in the psyche perhaps follow this type of process - at least that is my current understanding.

fwiw

 

[Color]

That could be the case when the will power is enough to completely remove a habit by itself. It is theoretically possible but usually not probable. The point in asking to "move slow deliberately" in this specific context was to temporarily disrupt a habitual pattern so that self-observation can take place. If you have a deep ingrained habit of doing things in a particular way, then just reading and trying to practice doing something different is not likely to be successful all the time. If someone struggles with oneself in this way, the point may become clear. Here is a relevant ISOTM quote that deals with this topic.

That particular part of ISOTM is going through my mind a lot lately. I'm not sure if what I'm wondering about is connected to the moving center or just to the body itself.

When I started to see the chiropractic doctor, first he was just doing minor work on my spine, cause of the severe pain I had, mostly on my lower back and lots of finger-pressing on certain points of my body. But when the I started to feel better, at my fourth visit, he did some work on my upper back and the neck. When I got back home, I took my dogs for a walk and noticed my mind is becoming more and more clear as I walked. At some point I realized how most of the heavy, depressed, dark thoughts which accompanied and tortured me for almost a year (to the point of paranoia,) were losing it's strength, one by one. As if you would look at the clouds in the sky disappearing from the warmth of the sun.

As I observed it happening, I felt such a tremendous relief, as if someone took off 100 tones of weight from my shoulders. I was able to breathe with ease, after a long, long time. It was a strong feeling of separating myself from all that darkness. I could still 'see' all the dark thoughts and heavy feelings, but it was not me feeling and thinking them anymore. At that point I looked up to the sky and I said to the Divine Cosmic Mind and to the Light "I don't want to be that anymore! I can't live like that anymore, I will die for sure... I promise I'll do everything I can, but please, please help me not to carry those with me anymore. Help me to let it go..." And as I continued to walk, I was breathing deeply and one after another deep sighs were coming out from me.

After that I didn't suffer the 'attacks' anymore. It's not gone completely, but the second my mind starts to fall into a loop of dark thoughts or when I start to feel sad or irritated for no apparent reason - I can catch it happening and work through it. I take some sort of a role of a scientist observing it's experiment and constantly ask 'WHY?' It seems to work!

But my question is... Is it possible that... if a certain trauma is stored within our body and has some sort of a physical manifestation in it, that instead of dealing with the trauma through working on the emotional and thinking patterns (resolving the programing) in order to heal the body as the result, can the-other-way-around process occur? Is that what Gurdjieff was, among others, pointing out when talking about the moving center and paying attentions to the body movements? As physical body AND it's movements being a doorway to access the emotional and intellectual problems in order to work on them? Is what happened to me - a physical change (through the work of a chiropractic doctor) around the heart area of the spine and on my neck, which seemed to release some old emotional and thinking blockages, patterns - connected to that?

In other words, is changing the physical body, just another level of what Gurdjieff is describing as a work on the moving center?

Also,

[quote author=ISOTM]
"Observation of the activity of imagination and daydreaming forms a very important part of self-study.
....

"Even at the first attempt to study the elementary activity of the moving center a man comes up against habits. For instance, a man may want to study his movements, may want to observe how he walks. But he will never succeed in doing so for more than a moment if he continues to walk in the usual way. But if he understands that his usual way of walking consists of a number of habits, for instance, of taking steps of a certain length, walking at a certain speed, and so on, and lie tries to alter them, that is, to walk faster or slower, to take bigger or smaller steps, he will be able to observe himself and to study his movements as he walks. If a man wants to observe himself when he is writing, he must take note of how he holds his pen and try to hold it in a different way from usual; observation will then become possible. In order to observe himself a man must try to walk not in his habitual way, he must sit in unaccustomed attitudes, he must stand when he is accustomed to sit, he must sit when he is accustomed to stand, and he must make with his left hand the movements he is accustomed to make with his right hand and vice versa. All this will enable him to observe himself and study the habits and associations of the moving center.
[/quote]

This is something related to my recent Tai Chi trainings. Like standing in an 'open posture' for as long as you can, observing your body and toughs & feelings and physical pain which arises and letting it all go and focusing on relaxing the whole body in the pose/form which seems impossible to do so! I could be mistaken, but I think it's closely connected to my recent experience I wrote about in another thread, as another example how to access the blockages through the physical body.

Am I mixing apples with oranges here or just stating what's obvious to others?

Thank you for helping me out in 'connecting the dots' :)

 

[obyvatel]

Hi Alice,
You may want to look at Peter Levine's book "In An Unspoken Voice". There is a forum thread here .

But my question is... Is it possible that... if a certain trauma is stored within our body and has some sort of a physical manifestation in it, that instead of dealing with the trauma through working on the emotional and thinking patterns (resolving the programing) in order to heal the body as the result, can the-other-way-around process occur?

One can access trauma through the body. Getting body-work done can bring up old buried memories and effect healing. Reading Levine's book will give you more information.

On the biological level, some neuroscientists like Candace Pert state that memory is stored at the level of cellular receptors. Following this line of thought, trauma is stored in the cells of the body and can thus be accessed through bodywork. Here are two more threads which you may want to look at
Polyvagal Theory by Stephen Porges
Body is the Subconscious Mind by Candace Pert

 

[Color]

Hi Alice,
You may want to look at Peter Levine's book "In An Unspoken Voice". There is a forum thread here .

One can access trauma through the body. Getting body-work done can bring up old buried memories and effect healing. Reading Levine's book will give you more information.

On the biological level, some neuroscientists like Candace Pert state that memory is stored at the level of cellular receptors. Following this line of thought, trauma is stored in the cells of the body and can thus be accessed through bodywork. Here are two more threads which you may want to look at
Polyvagal Theory by Stephen Porges
Body is the Subconscious Mind by Candace Pert

Thank you so much Obyvatel! Back to reading! ;)