Study and Discussion of the Moving Center

[anart]

I don't have a definitive answer, but it seems to me that the goal is to make the person less motor-center dominate, if possible. This would seem to mean that both the intellectual and the emotional centers need kick-starting (assuming those centers are accessible) - not that the person needs activities that make them more focused on the motor center. If we're dealing with someone who is overly intellectually centered, we work to get them out of their head a bit - so why would the same not apply to the motor centered? That is assuming the person has something to work with in the emotional and intellectual centers. Ideally (or so it seems to me) this intellectual and emotional work could be initially accessed through the motor center - since that's the center running the ship at the moment, but I don't have the 'how' of that. The motor center is the doorway, but the point is to wake up the two atrophied centers, which means engaging them in some way - perhaps first one then the other (the emotional center being key to any real progress). Perhaps physical exhaustion might be helpful to unseat the motor center 'king', if even temporarily - at which point (perhaps) emotional shocks would be more effective.

I think Gurdjieff's exercises are very helpful for people divorced from their motor center because it forces a focus on the physical - but for someone who exists in the motor center, I'm not so sure. It would likely prompt observation of posture and attitude, and that alone is important, but I'm not sure it's going to help them bring to life the emotional center. It's a very interesting question...

 

[webglider]

Quotes from ISOTM:

You must understand that the three principal centers, the thinking, the emotional, and the moving, are connected together and, In a normal man, they are always working in unison. This unison is what presents the chief difficulty in work on oneself. What is meant by this unison? It means that a definite work of the thinking center is connected with a definite work of the emotional and moving centers—that is to say, that a certain kind of thought is inevitably connected with a certain kind of emotion (or mental state) and with a certain kind of movement (or posture); and one evokes the other, that is, a certain kind of emotion (or mental state) evokes certain movements or postures and certain thoughts, and a certain kind of movement or posture evokes certain emotions or mental states, and so forth. Everything is connected and one thing cannot exist without another thing."And it must be further understood that we are not speaking of exceptions or accidents which may or may not occur, but of general principles, of what happens every day to everyone. Ordinary man, even if he comes to the conclusion that work on himself is indispensable—is the slave of his body. He is not only the slave of the recognized and visible activity of the body but the slave of the unrecognized and the invisible activities of the body, and it is precisely these which hold him in their power. Therefore when a man decides to struggle for freedom he has first of all to struggle with his own body.
"You will remember that when we spoke of the work of the 'three-story factory,' I pointed out to you that most of the energy produced by the factory is wasted uselessly, among other things energy is wasted on unnecessary muscular tension. This unnecessary muscular tension eats up an enormous amount of energy. And with work on oneself attention must first be turned to this.

I started doing work on myself in this way several weeks ago. This compilation of all the quotes in ISOTM is really helpful. I've had a number of insights since I began.

1. I can regulate my emotions to a certain extent by changing the way I walk! Every morning I take my dog for a long, long walk in the park. While there, I experiment with different styles of walking. I found that when I take long strides and add a little bounce to my walk, I almost immediately feel happy. One day after walking in the park, I was coming home and repeated the same stride and felt so incrediby joyful that I decided that I wanted to skip! I had my dog's leash in one hand, and my red umbrella in the other, and my mind said that I was too old to skip. Immediately I felt such a great conflict. What will people think! And yet my body really wanted to skip so I did!

I felt silly, but very very happy. I still remember how the trees looked, and the mist on my face. and the vibrancy of the colors of the leaves: the reds, yellows and oranges. I even twirled my umbrella! Everyday that I walk, I try something new, and each time I feel something different.

2. I notice how much like a machine I am. I am beginning to notice how I begin to get angry - the sensations that precede the outburst.
What I've begun to do is separate myself from the anger and observe my body. Then I tell myself "NO" and then I observe the struggle between the body wanted to release tension in the old way, and my aim to find a new way. Today, I won. I didn't let the feeling take me.
It's small but very big for me.

3. In observing myself I notice a lot of tension. It's all over especially in my shoulders and neck. The breathing exercises are beginning to help. I feel myself present in my own body when I do them.

This is just a beginning but I feel very hopeful. I really want to wake up, not be a machine anymore, and do some good in the world and really enjoy being alive.

 

[Alana]

So, any suggestions about how to work with moving center focused people?

A pilgrimage is a traditional way to engage the moving center in sustained effort. The Camino de Santiago is an ancient pilgrimage route in your neighborhood. I walked this way in 2008, from Porta St. Jacques in the Pyrenees to Santiago de Compostela in 32 days. The Camino de Santiago has a developed infrastructure of dormitories which are inexpensive. I spent about 20Euros a day for a room and board. New people, new places, a new experience of time, etc. requires attention and effort as inertia and habit of everyday life are left behind.

:D I walked the Camino in the fall of 2003, from Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port to Finistere.

<snip>

I don’t know if this “wild” thought is useful, but I have wanted to suggest its possibility for some time. It was a moving center experiment which began the effort to strengthen will, for me. :)

And so it was for me. I agree with all you describe in fact. But from the perspective of helping a moving-center-dominant person develop their other centers, I don't know if it is a solution. My thinking right now is close to what anart writes:

I think Gurdjieff's exercises [or the camino in this instance]are very helpful for people divorced from their motor center because it forces a focus on the physical - but for someone who exists in the motor center, I'm not so sure. It would likely prompt observation of posture and attitude, and that alone is important, but I'm not sure it's going to help them bring to life the emotional center.

Of what I understand so far, for the emotional center to awaken needs to be allowed to use it's own energy for itself. The kind of process that is described in the Depression as a stepping stone thread, in this instance not only with negative emotions, but also positive ones as well, like the excitement about doing something we like to do. In other words, to try to stay with the emotion (positive or negative), focusing on the sensations that it produces in the chest area, conserving any movements/actions/speech that we might feel propelled to engage in while we do it. And try it again and again and again.

Since I was reminded of the camino, I wonder if awe producing experiences can have an effect on awakening the emotional center, like watching a sunrise from a mountain-peak, singing along with peers songs that have meaning to us and touch us deeply, etc. I am really not sure, just some thoughts.

 

[webglider]

Quote from anart:

The motor center is the doorway, but the point is to wake up the two atrophied centers, which means engaging them in some way - perhaps first one then the other (the emotional center being key to any real progress).

It seems to me from the following quote from ISOTM that even someone who is leading with the moving center can wake up the two atrophied centers by adopting different postures and identifying the emotions that correspond to each particular posture. I suspect that Gurdjieff already had a sense of which postures would open the emotional center.

that is, a certain kind of emotion (or mental state) evokes certain movements or postures and certain thoughts, and a certain kind of movement or posture evokes certain emotions or mental states, and so forth.

In relation to the above quote, I'm thinking that perhaps Gurdjieff's dances - the postures and movements that he choreographed the dancers to take had the aim of opening up channels to the other centers.

The music in this clip from Meetings With Remarkable Men may be the gateway to the emotions, as are the postures:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23HFQcEFYO8

I remember reading that when Gurdjieff visited the temple in which his friend the prince was staying, he learned that students of dance in that tradition were trained very early how to create certain postures with their bodies. It was like an alphabet of postures that took years to learn and was part of a sacred tradition.

I could be wrong, but my impression is that the moving center IS the key that will open up the other centers.

 

[thevenusian]

I've also been thinking dance. It is physical exertion requiring focus and balance, the intellect is engaged directing movement & posture and keeping track of count and patterns, and the music involved engages with emotion, both evoking and inviting expression.

I have no idea what specific details in all the above would be most effective or desirable, and I imagine the details are very important. Gurdjieff may have left us some hints.

Another possibility might be drumming and singing, if it involved learning a specific pattern (all the above to a lesser extent). Maybe singing and movement combined.

It is interesting to investigate this.

 

[obyvatel]

For thinking types, we say that one needs to question their very way of thinking. For physical types or Man 1, deeper contemplation of words may not be natural and so words could just bounce off the surface without penetrating inside. So for physical types, "thinking" can be replaced by "moving" or "posing" and Gurdjieff's method of changing habitual physical postures, learning to move differently etc can be employed.

The habitual hold of the moving center (Gurdjieff does describe the connection of the moving center to the formatory apparatus to be the speediest and the best in "Views From The Real World ") can be weakened by tiring it out (through specialized repeated activity) or making it do unfamiliar things - like holding uncomfortable postures. If the habitual hold is weakened, then there is a chance of other centers being exercised.

Traditional religious practices/rituals/ceremonies involving holding the posture of prayer, doing prostrations, sacred dances etc may have some relevance in this context. Needleman talks about prayer as a state of being "open" in Lost Christianity. In his conversation with Metropolitan Anthony where Needleman was asking the latter about work with the body in Christian traditions, Anthony says
[quote author=Lost Christianity]
"You have been to our service. If you stand in the service with your hands down to the side, with your head slightly down - not too much - your wight evenly balanced .... if one does this, one begins to see changes taking place in the body. The breathing changes, certain muscles relax, others become firm - not tense. All this comes from the religious impulse ..."
"The exercises you ask about originated in this way, from the Fathers observing what happened to them when they were in a state of prayer".
[/quote]

Needleman also relates an experience where he was doing repeated prostrations repeating "Lord have mercy" in a monastery. He relates being sore and irritated at the process. Then he tried to compel himself into a "mystical experience" just to make sense of what appeared as a senseless practice - but "each time, the sharp pain of my knees and back takes me away". After continuing in this way for some time he mentions a new sort of awareness that came over him and as his eyes fell on an icon of the Virgin, he could look at it completely without associations. In Zen tradition, it would perhaps be called a "satori" or sudden flash of understanding.

Now it could be said that Needleman is most likely a Man 3 or Man 2 - so for him physical focus gave some results. I could be wrong, but I think that such a method would work for Man 1,2,3 only in slightly different way. For Man3 as an example, automatic thoughts would crowd the mind as the moving center is doing some repetitive activity. The energy of the small accumulators is burned up under the combined action of the thoughts and movement and when man 3 can no longer have enough energy to think, irritation and tiredness would set in. If he still continues and does not give up, then gradually he focuses more on the physical task but even this fades away after some time. Then, it could be possible that a connection with the large accumulator (which G says is accessed through the emotional center) be made leading to some new quality of awareness or insight. For Man 1, it may take a longer time and more persistence to empty the small accumulator if he does not unnecessarily waste energy in thinking but if he pushes himself on, he could achieve the same result of eventually tying in to the big accumulator via the emotional center.

Moving center work is traditionally practiced in groups in the physical proximity of the teacher. To reach the state where one could tap into the large accumulator, one does need to push beyond normal endurance (super effort) and this cannot usually be done alone and perhaps should not be attempted as well for safety reasons.

 

[StrangeCaptain]

I guess I will share something tentatively since the discusson of this thread is serendipitous with something I have been experimenting with. A lot of these descriptions of moving center dominated people describe me very well, but in general, I am mainly occupied with "good householder" lessons right now. I don't think abotu these esoteric aspects of The Work very often. However, The Work and its interpretation here obviously can become involved in the journey to become a good householder. As this thread started, I have already been involved in an "activity" for interrupting these sort of moving center automated periods of time. It certainly works, but I am early in the experiment. It is unclear still that these interruptions have a lasting effect or that I have chosen the correct activity. Because of this, I don't care to share my activity yet or the details of the experiment. However, since we are sort of brainstorming here I thought I would add the general parameters of the activity.

This activity satisfies the following:
(1) I can not do it successfully when in automatic mode
(2) It is something I want to do

My idea is that if there is something that I like to do, and I repeatedly fail at it due to being in automatic mode, then I have motivation to see that I am in automatic mode and interrupt that mode however temporary that interruption is.

I think this type of activity is a different type of interruption than that described above where we do something that exhausts the energy of the moving center. If I have clearly successful or abysmal results over the coming months, I will certainly report them here.

I will say what inspired my choice of activities. I found out from my mother that there was something that I used to love doing when I was a very young child, and I don't remember this at all. It was odd to me that I could like something so much as a child and not remember anything about it. So... I have taken this activity back up. I noticed immediately that in automatic mode I can not do it well. I can't learn about it in automatic mode. Essentially, it is a dead end, frustrating and impenetrable, when I am in automatic mode, and yet it is sublimely enjoyable when I am not in automatic mode. It is the damndest thing.

Sorry for the mystery... I just am not willing to share the specific activity until I have a few more weeks/months with it, but as this thread has popped up, I thought it might be useful to share some possible parameters for an interrupting activity.

 

[Thomas Alan]

Thanks, Laura, for this thread.

I, definitely, have a strong moving center orientation. Even a child I loved to walk. I hiked many miles as a kid, in the process discovering many wilderness areas in the area. If I went to a movie I would walk downtown and back.

As an adult I ran for exercise for nearly 20 years in all kinds of weather. I climbed mountains each summer. I loved the physical effort of mountain climbing, though it drained my energy. Super efforts indeed. When I lay in bed after a day on the mountain it's like my spirit is released. Visual images of the climb flow with deep feeling of wellness and contentment.

My intellectual center is also very active. Reading, studying, learning new ideas points of view.

The emotional center mostly seems to be left out. Somehow I came to seem emotions as a weakness, a vulnerability. Ba-ha breathing has helped release emotions, although usually not during the session itself. The emotions can overwhelm me the day after a ba-ha session, I sit quietly and break into sobs.

No doubt my centers steal functions from each other. Thinking with emotions and body, trying to feel with my mind.

Mac

 

[Jefferson]

This is very timely Laura, thank you for posting. I will read these excerpts with care, trying to apply it to myself.

I find the text and the techniques mentioned are sometimes difficult to understand in practice, but it is a good start to read them. Some of us moving-center dominated individuals need practical techniques in addition to EE.

Practical techniques are needed to categorize my behaviours/thoughts/emotions into:
1) moving center
2) emotional center
3) intellectual center
--> maybe setting specific times of the day to sit down and recapitulate for even 10 minutes the past 3 hours, and do that every x hours per day, to practice at least trying to distinguish between these 3 centers. Maybe have a table on my notebook computer and/or mobile device with 3 columns, the time and date, and itemize them. Then at the same time I could look back and see whether I have even understood the 3 centers well enough. I find sometimes in the evenings I look back at the day and see a hodge podge of activity and it is hard to distinguish much, and just don't know where to start with the diary: therefore, quite often I will just do EE and go to sleep early.

 

[Laura]

This is very timely Laura, thank you for posting. I will read these excerpts with care, trying to apply it to myself.

I find the text and the techniques mentioned are sometimes difficult to understand in practice, but it is a good start to read them. Some of us moving-center dominated individuals need practical techniques in addition to EE.

Practical techniques are needed to categorize my behaviours/thoughts/emotions into:
1) moving center
2) emotional center
3) intellectual center
--> maybe setting specific times of the day to sit down and recapitulate for even 10 minutes the past 3 hours, and do that every x hours per day, to practice at least trying to distinguish between these 3 centers. Maybe have a table on my notebook computer and/or mobile device with 3 columns, the time and date, and itemize them. Then at the same time I could look back and see whether I have even understood the 3 centers well enough. I find sometimes in the evenings I look back at the day and see a hodge podge of activity and it is hard to distinguish much, and just don't know where to start with the diary: therefore, quite often I will just do EE and go to sleep early.

At this point, Jefferson, you CAN'T apply any of it to yourself because everything you do is moving center driven.

 

[ana]

After thinking about it, and reviewing the data, I would say that the most distinctive trait of man number one (though there may be several levels here, depending on the individual) is the lack of autonomous developmental dynamisms. In not having enough contact and practice with their emotional and intellectual centers, He/She becomes the clear example of a parrot. Survival through imitation, repetition and lower instinct functions are the norm, they can follow the "rules" and that helps them fit the standarts and survive in the environment but there are not enough autonomous processes.

I'm more inclined to think that man number one is less willing to start any kind of real work on himself since there isn't enough work of the emotional and intellectual centers to bring the necessary conflict and awareness to make the autonomous factors emerge, and so maybe the development potencial of man number one is mainly limited to life lessons which helps them grow their emotions and intellect step by step.

Dabrowski explain that even when sensual and psychomotor OEs are present (they can be highly active and enthusiastic, and may be impulsive and competitive) development with them alone is somewhat limited...

Emotional, intellectual and imaginational OEs are associated with accelerated and universal development, that is development in which autonomous factors (3rd factor of DP) are particularly strong. The highest level of development is possible if the Emotional OE is the strongest or at least as strong as the other OEs.
The psychomotor and sensual forms of OE may enhance such development by giving it more energy and more numerous areas of conflict but by themselves do not contribute to the autonomous factor. In cases where the emotional, intellectual and imaginational OEs are weak or absent, development remains under strong if not total external control. Great strength of psychomotor and sensual forms at the cost of others limits development to the lowest levels. When enhanced psychomotor and sensual OEs is combined with strong ambition, tendencies towards showing off, lying and cheating , then it constitutes a nucleus of psychopathy and characteropathy.

Edit: Grammar

 

[Approaching Infinity]

After thinking about it, and reviewing the data, I would say that the most distinctive trait of man number one (though there may be several levels here, depending on the individual) is the lack of autonomous developmental dynamisms. In not having enough contact and practice with their emotional and intellectual centers, He/She becomes the clear example of a parrot. Survival through imitation, repetition and lower instinct functions are the norm, they can follow the "rules" and that helps them fit the standarts and survive in the environment but there are not enough autonomous processes.

I'm more inclined to think that man number one is less willing to start any kind of real work on himself since there isn't enough work of the emotional and intellectual centers to bring the necessary conflict and awareness to make the autonomous factors emerge, and so maybe the development potencial of man number one is mainly limited to life lessons which helps them grow their emotions and intellect step by step.

Dabrowski explain that even when sensual and psychomotor OEs are present (they can be highly active and enthusiastic, and may be impulsive and competitive) development with them alone is somewhat limited...

I've been thinking in similar terms. In "Transcripts of Gurdjieff's Meetings 1941-1946", he says the following, for example:

There are three aspects that you are able to see in different friends of yours - where is to be found their centre of gravity, their individuality. Of your three friends, one has his centre of gravity in his mind; another is like a cow with centre of gravity in his body; the third is like an hysterical woman, he manipulates for everything. ... There isn't a better illustration for the emotional centre than the hysterical woman. She feels everything, even what doesn't exist. (p. 61)

You have a weakness, a sickness; you must not think with your feeling; you must think with your head. To think with your feeling is a weakness, a sickness. The beginning comes from feeling and the centre of thought is only a function. But the centre of gravity must be the thought. And now you can know what is individuality. It is when your centre of gravity is in your thought. So, if your centre of gravity is not in your thought, you are not an individual, you are an automaton. It's a simple explanation. Every man should try to accustom himself to being an individual, an independent person, something, not merde (excuse the word), not an animal, dog, cat. It is a very simple symptom. If you concentrate your being in your thought, you are an individual; there are many degrees among individuals, but that isn't important for the moment. You are an individual when you have your centre of gravity in the thinking centre. And if it is in another centre, you are only an automaton. It can be in your body and in your feeling, but when you work you should always have for aim to be in your thought. And this do consciously. If you do not, everything does itself unconsciously in you. Your work should be exclusively to concentrate yourself in your thought. It's a simple explanation. (p. 75-76)

I think an example of this is super-efforts and the stop exercise. If your centre of gravity is moving centre, the idea is to move it to your head (will?), to force the body to do what YOU tell it to, not what it wants. It also meshes well with the triune brain theory, having the centre of gravity in the highest brain regions (neocortex).

 

[Z...]

Indeed, thank you for starting this thread and everyone who contributed with interesting ideas.

Am I right in understanding that this is the individual make up which can still change as you work on yourself or you remain predominantly driven by one of the centers until you die, i.e you can only learn how to refine the expression ?

Also, I do have a hard time classifying myself.
I am inclined to think I belong to emotional center driven type but I may be too subjective in this assessment. In any case I think I do need objective mirror with regards to this, so if its OK to hijack this thread for few posts I would really value your assessment... (I suppose you can judge this based on interactions with me on the forum and real life, those of you I met)...thank you.

 

[Laura]

Also, I do have a hard time classifying myself.
I am inclined to think I belong to emotional center driven type but I may be too subjective in this assessment. In any case I think I do need objective mirror with regards to this, so if its OK to hijack this thread for few posts I would really value your assessment... (I suppose you can judge this based on interactions with me on the forum and real life, those of you I met)...thank you.

You shouldn't have much difficulty. Indeed, in Gurdjieff's words, you are often like an "hysterical woman".

 

[Paragon]

I am either man 2 or man 3 as I spend endless hours over analysing everything, imagining the worst case scenario and feeling all the emotions as if it were real! I'm also very sensitive to peoples energy, so if someone came up to the till in my work in a bad mood, i pick up on their energy and feel the same as them, with great anxiety and I get panic attacks if I don't self remember.

Recently however I have been able to move my consciousness or my centre of gravity from my head/intellectual centre and emotional/feeling centre, to a place outside all 3. I'm observing how I'm feeling emotionally, and how my posture is, if there is any tension, and what automatic negative thought loops are present which the other centres could be reinforcing etc.

So today in work I was able to keep calm in very intense situations, that I usually would be struggling to breathe in! Others noticed my calmness and commented on it, other colleuges projected their anger and irritation at customers rudeness at me, which upsets me usually and I even felt the same 'rush' of sickening energy but I did not identify with it and observed from a 'different' place. The emotion was there, burning away inside of me, but it was not Me. It was the most euphoric thing I have ever felt! It was as if I had stepped outside myself and was watching from a more objective viewpoint. All of my anxiety was gone, I felt very happy/content, i was able to perform my job much much better and best of all, I felt like I had a certain kind of Freedom, to choose how to act in any situation!!

This state of being can be so easily lost as personally, it's quite an abstract thing for me, the idea of 'being' in a certain centre. So to be aware of my moving centre, the emotional centre, and also the intellectual centre, to be aware of all this and experience all of this at the Same time, is truly breathtaking. To be in another Higher place observing myself and utilising all 3 centres for what they are designed to do, makes me feel like I can do Anything. I feel like life is fun. Nothing is an unpleasant effort, it just Is what it is. Such things as Cleaning the house, talking to people becomes simple and no social anxiety gets in the way (it may be felt, but one does not identify with it). It feels like my essence shines through on everything that I do.

So I'm not sure what is going on and in recent posts of mine I have also described this state of being, but today is when it really worked practically and was beneficial to all. I'm not saying I have became man 4 or that I have fused all my little I's into one or anything silly like that ;D. And perhaps what I'm experiencing Is just a totally subjective mess that has no bearing in reality. But I know that under very stressful conditions I was calm and I didn't react emotionally to others when most definitely I would have, and I was able to do my job so much better.

I think I may be detracting from the topic at hand a bit with my ramble on here, so mods feel free to suggest I open my own thread and discuss my experiences there. Hopefully someone may benefit from this though :)