Study and Discussion of the Moving Center

herondancer said:
This is good description of something I experience. The loop is so quick to get going, it's kind of breath-taking. I haven't developed the ability yet to step out into "another place" yet, but that image is very helpful.

It's very quick to get going. And something ive been thinking about is that man and woman have absolutely no concept of even the existence of such centres. They believe that they Are these centres. They don't know that they can step outside theirselves and view themselves the way reality does. That the human mind as we know it, Is a 'prison', as don juan says. A control system that Is a microcosmic reflection of the world today, via STS influences. We are so subject to the whims and desires of our normal bodily experiences that, we really do not control ourselves. And the greatest problem Is that we think we do. We don't realise that our consciousness can 'inhabit' a place in ourselves, outside what we call 'normal waking consciousness', to a place that transcends our normal sense of experience, so that we may freely choose to act in any situation. We can see ourselves the way the universe does. We essentially, 'identify' with the DCM.

In respect to the speed of the emotional/intellectual feedback loop, what I've found to help Is that by noticing the Speed of it, Is to become aware of that precise moment in which you identify with it, thereby Becoming that loop. Thus in this way, you don't let the control system control you I.e the predators mind - you are in effect, free from STS influences. You become more conscious of yourself - which is really the raising of consciousness perhaps? Pure speculation on my part there.



Herr Eisenheim said:
Same here. More over I noticed the tendency to "invent" the emotional shocks if they are non existent in external environment and then go through the same motion over and over again.

I have this tendency also. I think becoming aware of that, and then comparing how your feeling to what Is actually happening in reality, Is a good way to calm down these loops too. If one puts faith in the objective universe and probably most importantly, to Tune their reading instrument accurately to reflect this, then one can transcend above the control system, as it is based on lies/half truths.

I hope I am making sense here since I dont want to be adding noise, and confuzzling y'all! ;D
 
ISOTM said:
Can the instinctive and the moving functions be controlled by two distinct centers?" I asked G. once.

'They can," said G., "and to them must be added the sex center. These are the three centers of the lower story. The sex center is the neutralizing center in relation to the instinctive and the moving centers. The lower story can exist by itself, because the three centers in it are the conductors of the three forces. The thinking and the emotional centers are not indispensable for life."

Laura said:
{This last is a totally fascinating remark.}

The instinctive-moving center is focused on the external world of food, mates, and predators. It is the center of physical survival. The intellectual part of the moving center would be focused on technology and invention to better secure the physical factors. How do you turn moving centered people's attention to the interface between the exterior and interior world?

Trick them into thinking the Work will better prepare them for success with the opposite sex, attract lots of money, and avoid detection by real predators. Later for them to know Life does not need this Work. The Work uses Life as a means to enter a new world, harmonized with teachings from another realm. These moving centered types see Life as an end, not a means, so the Work leads them to the shock of failure.

Could moving center people be the literal minded or the organic portals? ;)
 
Laura said:
Just because you like physical activity doesn't mean you are weighted in the moving center. Ark walks a lot too, but he does it because it helps him to think. The main thing that is going on is intellectual.

I think a person could be man #1 and be totally lazy.

Apologies, Laura and Obyvatel. I didn't mean to imply I may be weighted in the moving center simply by enjoying exercise. I was moreso identifying with what Mac said about enjoying that sort of thing and it made me wonder.

In truth there were other life incidents that made me consider it as well. I was diagnosed with aspberger's syndrome in my early teens, when my social learning visibly lagged behind my peers. I've ended up having to rely more consciously on imitation in personality masks than before. We all have personality, but for me it felt viscerally more contrived than when I was younger and personality was less nuanced and refined in that age category. This led me to wonder if epigenetic factors in my instinctive substratum were forcing my moving center to take over some of the work of the emotional center. I doubt this is unique to people with social learning disabilities, mind you.

Another incident that made me wonder was, when I was in high school I would often use words I didn't formally know the definitions for, and just kind of inferred it from the context. Fortunately a teacher eventually called my bluff, and flat out said, paraphrasing, "by what right do you use words you don't understand in a conversion? That's not even real communication!" This probably isn't unique to being purely moving center oriented though. Maybe I'm just conflating movement center orientation with substituting imitation a for proper emotional or mental thought.

I have this tendency also. I think becoming aware of that, and then comparing how your feeling to what Is actually happening in reality, Is a good way to calm down these loops too. If one puts faith in the objective universe and probably most importantly, to Tune their reading instrument accurately to reflect this, then one can transcend above the control system, as it is based on lies/half truths.

I think this is an excellent point Paragon. Peter Levine said that as children we are taught by our parents and society how to interpret certain physiological, instinctive, and emotional signals. If, due to trauma or generally pathological socialization, our instincts and emotions can become deregulated and maladaptive, causing us to interpret inner psychological dis-ease as being external to us, distorting our perceptions of reality and ability to be externally considerate of that reality. It never ceases to amaze me how much our instincts can inform or twist our higher faculties.
 
go2 said:
The instinctive-moving center is focused on the external world of food, mates, and predators. It is the center of physical survival. The intellectual part of the moving center would be focused on technology and invention to better secure the physical factors. How do you turn moving centered people's attention to the interface between the exterior and interior world?

Trick them into thinking the Work will better prepare them for success with the opposite sex, attract lots of money, and avoid detection by real predators. Later for them to know Life does not need this Work. The Work uses Life as a means to enter a new world, harmonized with teachings from another realm. These moving centered types see Life as an end, not a means, so the Work leads them to the shock of failure.

Could moving center people be the literal minded or the organic portals? ;)

I'm a little cautious about "tricking" people into the work, because (for me, at least) it seems like it could easily descend into manipulation and the wishful thinking that eventually they will come around and try to become dead to themselves. G said that if there's any uncertainty about the individual's prospects, it's better off not to start, so I think being forthright from the outset saves time for everyone. FWIW.

Something about "tricking" reminds me of Carlos Castaneda's talks on the teaching method of stalking, which was how Don Juan's teacher, Julian, taught. Nothing was ever explained in his methods; people were thrown into chaotic and desperate situations in order for them to more or less spontaneously access abilities and (I'm guessing) higher faculties to overcome these life-threatening situations that the stalking teacher helps to orchestrate and control. I speculate that these situations tax the instinctive center to the point of exhaustion, spontaneously activating the other centers to resolve conflicts the moving center can't deal with on its own.

Edit: fixed spelling and changed "higher centers" to "other centers".
 
Laura said:
Can anybody think of others that might force the intellect to come into play to observe the action and/or the emotion related to it?

Maybe to look back in our life trying to address life situations in which we screwed up and it had unpleasant consequences for us and/or for others, thinking about our state in that moment and what we lacked regarding the knowledge of the situation, motivation and awareness, and how would we confront that situation now. This requires us to approach introspection through the thinking center and also the emotional center.

Making a list of feelings and emotions we have experienced in the past and the situations in which we met them and compare them with the recent ones. Then pick up an official list which psychologist use (it can be found online)and read each one of them trying to connect with them internally marking only those we are able to experience or had experienced in the past. This requires us to approach introspection through the emotional center.

Making a list of how do we see us, elaborating on what makes us think so. To force deeper introspection.

Stop doing something if you are not willing to put a fairly amount of attention and consideration unless you're sleeping :P
 
whitecoast said:
. I speculate that these situations tax the instinctive center to the point of exhaustion, spontaneously activating higher centers to resolve conflicts the moving center can't deal with on its own.

To my understanding, it would not work that way. Higher centers aren't 'activated spontaneously' - they are always active, in those who have them. The issue is that the lower centers are so confused, drained and ill-ordered that they cannot make a connection with the existent higher centers, thus the higher centers go 'unheard', as it were.
 
Herr Eisenheim said:
While both moving center man and emotional man react quickly without thinking - how would you characterize the main difference between these two types?

In the case of emotional man, the tendency may be to empathize or project his own emotions into a situation and respond accordingly. Watching his body or reading his words may give out an indication of the emotion he is feeling.

For a moving center dominated man, the response though quick is less likely to have much of an emotional flavor. It is more likely to be a response which is sort of dry and may seem to be superficially intellectual. He is more likely to search his memory banks to pick out what he thinks is an appropriate response, working chiefly through his formatory apparatus. In many cases the lack of depth would become discernible as compared to a more studied and deliberate response of Man 3. An intellectual man may wait longer to process the information and may even ask more questions to gather more data before giving a response.

Given the mixing of different centers, it may not be easy to make generalizations that would hold true across the board and apply to all cases. However, the above is what I have been able to observe in myself and other people as general tendencies. So fwiw.
 
anart said:
whitecoast said:
. I speculate that these situations tax the instinctive center to the point of exhaustion, spontaneously activating higher centers to resolve conflicts the moving center can't deal with on its own.

To my understanding, it would not work that way. Higher centers aren't 'activated spontaneously' - they are always active, in those who have them. The issue is that the lower centers are so confused, drained and ill-ordered that they cannot make a connection with the existent higher centers, thus the higher centers go 'unheard', as it were.

Yeah sorry, I meant the regular emotional and mental centers, which otherwise would be controlled and subordinated to the moving center in level 1 people. Sloppy terminology on my part. Corrections made.
 
I have an idea for an exercise for man#1 to get involved their's emotional and intellectual center. I inspired by one mention which Gurdjieff concluded in Balzebub's Tales... about acting and about it like people playing some roles crystallizing different internal states. It is true that G. indicates that the characters that people generaly played are negative. But for development of student, selected characters which will played would be positive.

Man weighted in the moving center should have no difficulty aping any character. They won't have any problems with copy body move, voice, physically resemble. Student entering into the role would have to understand self into emotions and thinking of character. He would observe its inner state and analyze whether that state is handy or restrictive to play a role. Farther on student would have to write the script, which would include, what he should think and feel to be effective in the best submit a role, and then realize this scenario, and recording whether created emotions and thoughts are integrate with this character.

Meybe this is quite correct idea.
 
I have a suggestion for a practical exercise. I first tried it as an experiment in (so-called) "balancing" and have since made it a recurring part of my life. It's a bit easier to write it in second person, so here it goes:

Start by forming an overall purpose of eventually making a thorough mental map of your entire physical neighborhood, though you're going to actually start this exercise on a smaller scale. Begin with the room you're in and include the whole house, apartment or whatever, room by room (another possible use of this structure would be for pegging items you need to temporarily rote-memorize). You will probably quickly notice that this activity expands the working memory by loading it up with as much detail of your surroundings as you can hold in mind at one time.

If you begin to feel fidgety or nervous and you are spending more than typical amounts of time in the mind mentally mapping your surroundings, complement the activity by physically interacting with something around you to allow the body a feel for how relatively solid everything is. Touch stuff, dust off a picture or something. When feeling settled a bit, go back to observing stuff and placing mental representations of everything you sense (see, feel, hear, etc) on your map. Don't add anything to your map that's not actually there. Examples would be: random thoughts about what you're doing, how you feel about that dang sofa, how hard this is to do, etc., etc.

Stop any random thought or other imaginary element by simply trying to look directly at the thought as if to see it as clearly as you do the floor. You'll notice that an intent to actually look directly at random thought will cause it to disappear because it's only as real as vapor to begin with. Since any thought or thought loop with any basis in imagination will dissipate under force of direct observation, and since the activity here is all about disciplined, focused observation, this shouldn't be too hard to do. If it is hard to do then notice your aversion to looking directly at the 'offender'.

Keep your attention moving, observing stuff, noticing angles of view and comparing the relationships of one thing to another in your mind with the way they actually exist in the physical world to keep it all together in one picture or mental structure. This reinforcement is like a constant error checking that keeps the working memory stretching.

If you're doing this right, you are controlling your attention to make it mobile and to move, not only back and forth across the boundary of the physical world and the inner mental world, but you're also moving the attention around the domains of each world ("outer" and "inner"). At this point, it's probably obvious that the mental and physical are working together to accomplish an aim, so how is "feeling" involved?

First, I should mention that after the immediate environment has been mapped with one-to-one relationships to what is actually perceivable, the work naturally extends to the yard, or area surrounding the home and eventually the whole neighborhood since that is the originally formed purpose. Also, other than what has already been described, an additional benefit of expanding this mental map in the working memory is the experience of keeping the aim linked to a wider purpose - the eventual goal - and all this takes a controlled expenditure of energy.

After a certain time, as you go along continuing to build your map (and it doesn't have to be done all in one day or even worked on all day long - the keys seem to be actually doing it, accuracy and thoroughness), you will start to notice a 'feeling' building. My take on this is that the sense and feeling of something building comes from the aggregate qualia of individual sensate joining together in a medium (the working memory or the material of the mind), just like what would be happening on the substrate used by organisms forming interconnections in the physical world that we also experience on our particular substrate of reality. At some point, this widening/deepening mental map then begins to feel just as real as the physical environment itself and to have an emotional aspect to it.

If, while the picture expands, the relationships between things that are noticed in reality are deliberately re-created in the mind and allowed to stay intact there will be a noticeable increase of feeling you might think of as 'realness of being' and this may stimulate even deeper emotions.

How I explain this is that by having exercised the juxtapositional faculty thus, the natural inclination will be to automatically compare one's previous condition and abilities with what one is accomplishing now, see that one has actually increased his "ableness" and then move if only temporarily or slightly on the emotional spectrum in the direction of newer emotions - maybe even excitement, enthusiasm, exhilaration or something. All this - the activity involved in making a mental map that is isomorphic to the physical environment and the increasing sense of realness or realness of being - happens simultaneously as a growth of self-reinforcing feed-backs, OSIT. Results of these feed-backs may stimulate, not only a deeper understanding or sense of the reality surrounding us, but, by association, maybe real emotional cognition.

At any rate, I would say that as long as whatever you do is not the habitual or the stereotypical, (G says there is no self-observation without going against habit) this exercise at least should be good for something! :)
 
Hello,

I could suggest a book "Zen Body-Being" by Peter Ralston. This book allowed me to perceive my body in a new way and to see how it aligns itself with the gravity. Whenever I experience false emotions or thoughts I also feel my body getting out of sorts. I think I'm way too early to assess the efficacity of the techniques explained in the book, but it attracted me because of his other book which also deals with false thoughts/emotions ("The Book of Not Knowing"). I'm still reading the "The Fourth Way" and I find it similar to his other book.

Ytain
 
obyvatel said:
For a moving center dominated man, the response though quick is less likely to have much of an emotional flavor. It is more likely to be a response which is sort of dry and may seem to be superficially intellectual. He is more likely to search his memory banks to pick out what he thinks is an appropriate response, working chiefly through his formatory apparatus. In many cases the lack of depth would become discernible as compared to a more studied and deliberate response of Man 3. An intellectual man may wait longer to process the information and may even ask more questions to gather more data before giving a response.

Interesting! Today, I decided to switch things up, switching which arms I would normally use to cook and eat breakfast, and the first thing I did afterwards, was the last thing I wanted to do before going to work, which was take a walk. I sped up, and deliberately slowed down, noticing moreso the clumsiness of my body when slowed down and the anxiety increase when walking faster or at my normal pace. Intellectually, my mind would start racing in accordance with my body, and emotionally I would get flustered.

However, throughout the day, I was able to sort of have a dual consciousness, though rarely, when I was observing my thinking mind. Watching as thoughts and the emotions connected would come in and questioning their validity as a means to not identify. What I noticed was later on in the day, although going through my 'normal' period of anxiety, I actually became more social, but then settled into something similar to what you described, more or less. Emotionally and intellectually a bit neutral, but without excess thought loops. Things seemed to slow down a bit and I was calmer than usual. Really taking in what was happening around me and how I was interacting with my environment.
 
I have a question, maybe is on the thread but how could I know to which center I'm oriented?

Or could someone give me an insight about me, I mean, in my writings which center I look to be oriented?

Some have told me that I use the head on heart topics when I should use my heart on those cases.
 
lux said:
I have an idea for an exercise for man#1 to get involved their's emotional and intellectual center. I inspired by one mention which Gurdjieff concluded in Balzebub's Tales... about acting and about it like people playing some roles crystallizing different internal states. It is true that G. indicates that the characters that people generaly played are negative. But for development of student, selected characters which will played would be positive.

Man weighted in the moving center should have no difficulty aping any character. They won't have any problems with copy body move, voice, physically resemble. Student entering into the role would have to understand self into emotions and thinking of character. He would observe its inner state and analyze whether that state is handy or restrictive to play a role. Farther on student would have to write the script, which would include, what he should think and feel to be effective in the best submit a role, and then realize this scenario, and recording whether created emotions and thoughts are integrate with this character.

Meybe this is quite correct idea.

This sounds very useful, sort of "fake it 'til you make it". You could even think of it as "rewriting your own life-script."
 

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