The astral plane vs 5D

[David Topi]

Hi Laura, et al

Since I read the C's transcripts there has been a question on my notes with a big "pending" to be resolved. It is about the mention that when we die, we move to 5D for recycling or whatever before coming back to 3D. Leaving apart that we may have all our incarnations at once simultaneously or that we use reincarnation as a method for learning and evolution, the question is more about the 5D itself vs the astral plane.
Please let me share my understanding in order to ask for your point of view.

My father died few years ago, and since then, we have been able to "communicate" with him. Me, my sister and my mother, have had "conversations" and have perceive him. There is plenty of people who communicate with their dead relatives so it is not anything extremely extraordinaire. We do not see dead people around, it is just our father. So, I asked plenty of questions, how is your life and environment there? how do you get your "energy"? how do you perceive "time"? etc. The answer were a pretty much description of what here we believe 4D is going to be: instant location, feeding on energy, no time but perception of events in sequential order, etc. So for a long time, for me, the astral plane has been equivalent to 4D.

Then you have all the out of body experiences from tons of people in the planet. They all recount them and the different levels they meet, from Robert Monroe to anyone you can name on the field. So you project in the astral plane and the first thing you see is the astral counterpart of the physical plane we exist. Then you move higher and you find other levels of vibration with all kind of entities there, and of course, the "dead" people who are still learning, resting or waiting for the next "move".

So, that again gave me the impression that indeed, right after 3D, vibrationally speaking you have the astral plane which seems to be the same or almost the same as 4D.

Then I started getting info from the "negative" entities I was dealing with on the healing sessions I do. I tried to understand their vibrational level so I can match them to a plane or density. So I was asking the "higherself" of the person and sometimes if the entity "answered" by itself their "density" or frecuency level. So, many of them were just low astral entities, plenty of them were Dracos (4D STS), and a few (the most difficult ones) were 5D negative (STS).

All that gave me the following structure about the higher planes:

3D --> Astral plane (souls after physical death) --> 4D ---> 5D

For me, the recycling zone has been always something between 3D and 4D, so it blow my mind to see 5D explained as such. And to this day this remains a strong question to be solved.

So, what is your opinion and what is your understanding behind 5D being that reciclying zone?
Thanks!

 

[shijing]

All that gave me the following structure about the higher planes:

3D --> Astral plane (souls after physical death) --> 4D ---> 5D

For me, the recycling zone has been always something between 3D and 4D, so it blow my mind to see 5D explained as such. And to this day this remains a strong question to be solved.

So, what is your opinion and what is your understanding behind 5D being that reciclying zone?

I think that part of your confusion comes from conflating two different concepts. My present understanding (and I'm open to correction on this since I am still refining it) is that densities are defined primarily by level of awareness, and secondarily by physical properties. The first four densities require the combination of a soul (energetic consciousness) and material body, although the material body of the fourth density is more fluid (less 'dense') than that of the first three. Fifth density, by comparison, is the first density that does not require a material body. When a body (in whatever form it takes) in the first four densities expires, the soul separates from that body to return temporarily to fifth density, where decisions are made about the next physical incarnation (unless that soul is ready to graduate to fifth density, in which case it would remain there permanently). It then returns (or recycles) to the appropriate lower density for reincarnation into a new material body and further learning. You might use the analogy of a school, where first through fourth densities are the classrooms, fifth density is the administrative office, and sixth density is the board of directors -- material bodies are required in the classrooms in order to participate in the class activities, but they are not necessary outside of class when it's time to visit the office to plan your curriculum with the school counselor for the next year.

The astral planes, on the other hand, seem to be a general realm where beings of various levels of awareness are able to exist without material bodies, either temporarily or permanently. Some of them might be discarnate beings 'playing hooky' from school, others may be entities that aren't directly involved in the school system at all, still others may be the equivalent of 'wildlife'. The thing that ties them together is that none of them are incarnated physically, even if they may be at different levels of awareness.

 

[David Topi]

The astral planes, on the other hand, seem to be a general realm where beings of various levels of awareness are able to exist without material bodies, either temporarily or permanently. Some of them might be discarnate beings 'playing hooky' from school, others may be entities that aren't directly involved in the school system at all, still others may be the equivalent of 'wildlife'. The thing that ties them together is that none of them are incarnated physically, even if they may be at different levels of awareness.

ok, so your perception would be that the astral plane is not a "density level" as such, would that be correct? mmmmm......
That can indeed explain a bit why, for instance, none of the "dead people" wandering in the astral seem to have seen at all any 4D STS entities, if they are supposed to have a similar level of vibration or awareness, or share a common vibrational level, there should be interaction among them.

I am an engineer, so my mind is pretty much schematic, and if it does not fit in an visual schema is it hard for me to grasp it. Then the model would be something like:

3D --> 4D --> 5D --> etc

------> Astral planes ------->

both things above being parallel?

That indeed reminds me of something more, the "walls" and "membranes" that you encounter when astral projecting that do not allow you to "go" beyond some points, that could be well the energy walls separating both awareness or vibrational levels. Not sure still at this point about this...

 

[Mountain Crown]

Hi David,

It's my understanding that the term "astral plane" originated from a model which didn't include the concept of "densities;" there can be a little difficulty in tying the two models together.

It has been proposed that the astral plane is the level of existence immediately beyond the physical realm where the emotional and the mental "bodies" begin to separate. It has been divided into the upper and lower levels where mental purity and desire gravitate respectively.

It is also held that energetically the emotional body can have an existence of its own as a sort of shell once separated from the mental body. Since desire is so closely associated with material things this shell supposedly can be responsible for various kinds of mischief and communications with the physical realm for those who are sensitive.

Certainly others here may have a better take on this.

 

[David Topi]

Hi David,

It's my understanding that the term "astral plane" originated from a model which didn't include the concept of "densities;" there can be a little difficulty in tying the two models together.

It has been proposed that the astral plane is the level of existence immediately beyond the physical realm where the emotional and the mental "bodies" begin to separate. It has been divided into the upper and lower levels where mental purity and desire gravitate respectively.

It is also held that energetically the emotional body can have an existence of its own as a sort of shell once separated from the mental body. Since desire is so closely associated with material things this shell supposedly can be responsible for various kinds of mischief and communications with the physical realm for those who are sensitive.

Certainly others here may have a better take on this.

Hi Jerry,
indeed, this has been my understanding for quite a long time. But there has to be a connection somewhere, after all, it is all pure energy just pulsating at different speed rates (higher or lower frequencies).

When we are a pure soul (plus our emotional, mental ,etc bodies) we have a "measurable" frequency or vibratory level, meaning, the awareness or the being we are, if we could measure it in terms of vibration, would give us a "number", maybe in Hz. But then the beings in 4D or 5D do also have a vibratory level, that I am sure if measurable, would give us another number. Those two frequencies would be then comparable somehow and we could say, it is my understanding, that the level of a 5D is higher than the level of a 4D which is higher than the level of a dead person.

I think they have to fit in a model somehow

It could be indeed that they are parallel levels of awareness and vibration, that would explain a bit why the lower astral plane is almost identical to the earth 3d plane, and why some people can see dead people with the naked eye (just need to be a bit clairvoyant), but nobody can see a 4D entity (not even the good ones that may not try to hide ).

Not sure, this is a big question mark still that I do not understand.

 

[StrangeCaptain]

indeed, this has been my understanding for quite a long time. But there has to be a connection somewhere, after all, it is all pure energy just pulsating at different speed rates (higher or lower frequencies).

When we are a pure soul (plus our emotional, mental ,etc bodies) we have a "measurable" frequency or vibratory level, meaning, the awareness or the being we are, if we could measure it in terms of vibration, would give us a "number", maybe in Hz. But then the beings in 4D or 5D do also have a vibratory level, that I am sure if measurable, would give us another number. Those two frequencies would be then comparable somehow and we could say, it is my understanding, that the level of a 5D is higher than the level of a 4D which is higher than the level of a dead person.

I am not good with this esoteric stuff, but if I could choose one concept that illustrates to me something of what is meant when members here discuss densities, it would not be frequency. It would be "quality of consciousness." The different densities describe qualities of consciousness, for example, the difference between a human's consciousness and its range of potentials based on various factors (genetics, environment, etc) and a mouse's consciousness and its range of potentials. I am not sure it is helpful to consider one higher than another though they are certainly different. Sometimes we speculate about these qualities of consciousness as one being embedded in another so that we might think of 3rd density consciousness as being embedded in 4th density. In this sense, it would be like a subset of 4th density, sharing its properties, but also having properties of its own that arise from having boundaries; properties that cease to be important when those boundaries are taken away.

During the very little thought I have given these ideas, 5th density was always the one that stuck out like a sore thumb to me. From our discussions of it, I do not see it being "embedded" in 4th (or vice versa) as we could think of 3rd being in 4th. The concept is different somehow. Quite naively, I think of it as the quality of consciousness of souls that are coming to and from the physical existence in the 3rd density, but I have not even the slightest speculation where that exists with respect to the other densities.

 

[Sirius]

Hi,

Astral means ‘non-physical’ which is to my understanding rather a state than a plane of existence.
So-called earth-bound spirits are still in the 3D realm. It is possible to exist in 3D without any physical body, and also to incarnate. That's the modus after the body's expiration, too. This is not 5D. To be without a physical body does not imply to automatically be in 5D (neither in 4D).

ok, so your perception would be that the astral plane is not a "density level" as such, would that be correct? mmmmm......

Yes, that's how I understand it. Density refers to awareness level and determines how consciousness can manifest itself, which bodys are involved, the matter-to-consciousness ratio so to speak.

That can indeed explain a bit why, for instance, none of the "dead people" wandering in the astral seem to have seen at all any 4D STS entities

Yes, that could very well be. They are still in 3D. They could perceive the effects or influence of higher realms in terms of energy and manipulation (like shadows on the wall) like human beings can do under certain circumstances – but much better. The astral body has probably much fewer limitations in terms of perception (better senses, mind, etc.), but is still 3D. The conclusion is, of course, that they still aren't able to perceive 4D because the 3D astral body is a level below.

 

[David Topi]

Yes, that could very well be. They are still in 3D. They could perceive the effects or influence of higher realms in terms of energy and manipulation (like shadows on the wall) like human beings can do under certain circumstances – but much better. The astral body has probably much fewer limitations in terms of perception (better senses, mind, etc.), but is still 3D. The conclusion is, of course, that they still aren't able to perceive 4D because the 3D astral body is a level below.

ok, then that fits with my initial "model", of the astral plane being a kind of inner plane between 3D and 4D in terms of awareness or vibrational level, but I am back then to square one , why the C's do mention 5D as the place souls go after death? All the souls seem to hang out on the different astral planes before incarnating again, unless we then talk indeed as Patience said that the astral plane is not a density or sub-density level, but just a mere term for a non-incarnated soul who has just left the physical plane.

Not sure if I am going in circles here!

 

[Sirius]

All the souls seem to hang out on the different astral planes before incarnating again

I even think that a soul has to go to 5D in order to reincarnate (but this is only an idea). 5D is what comes after passing the tunnel and is described as contemplation zone.

 

[SeekinTruth]

The C's have explained that there are two basic forms of existence and experiencing. They call them the Long Wave Cycle and the Short Wave Cycle. The Long Wave Cycle is a purely "ethereal" existence. And they say the Short Wave Cycle involves a duality and requires incarnating into bodies and includes densities 1 through 4. When any being in these four densities dies, they go to 5th density and contemplate their next incarnation i.e. what they need to learn to advance and grow as souls.

The duality mentioned, they say, is that they experience their existence/being at the particular level of density as half in the body and half completely ethereal and timeless. When a soul has advanced to the point where they no longer need to incarnate into a physical body for experiences for further learning, they will advance to perhaps first to 5th density and then to 6th density. Also they say that if a being does not choose to become STO by the end of their experiences in 4th density, they cannot progress further as individual entities and will basically implode and be recycled in the next cycle at 1st density as primal matter.

So, the C's take on all this is pretty unique. I hope what I wrote clarified some things.

 

[anart]

Hi David, have you had a chance to read the Wave Series yet, or did you just read the transcripts? The Wave Series is infinitely more instructive than the transcripts alone, so it is recommended and should clear up these questions.

 

[David Topi]

Hi David, have you had a chance to read the Wave Series yet, or did you just read the transcripts? The Wave Series is infinitely more instructive than the transcripts alone, so it is recommended and should clear up these questions.

no, I read everything, but still can't manage to get a clear picture . I am getting more convinced that the astral plane may be a parallel level to the densities, let's see where this line of investigation takes me. I am trying to improve my out of body technique (can't do them now), so I can explore by myself and see if the stuff out there in the astral is the 5D or is something else. Not sure I will even find an answer though till I really go the "other side"

 

[StrangeCaptain]

Hi David, have you had a chance to read the Wave Series yet, or did you just read the transcripts? The Wave Series is infinitely more instructive than the transcripts alone, so it is recommended and should clear up these questions.

no, I read everything, but still can't manage to get a clear picture . I am getting more convinced that the astral plane may be a parallel level to the densities, let's see where this line of investigation takes me. I am trying to improve my out of body technique (can't do them now), so I can explore by myself and see if the stuff out there in the astral is the 5D or is something else. Not sure I will even find an answer though till I really go the "other side"

How is your life doing on planet earth? Have you mastered it sufficiently so that trying to explore other planes of existence, planes that if they exist would almost certainly not be very well interpretable by the way we as physical beings process information, would be anything other than a flight of fancy that distracts you from real personal growth? Would you be doing these explorations to seek out objective truth or to reinforce something you think you already know? These are all questions you may want to ask before using a lot of time and energy on out-of-body experiences. Have you considered the possibility that anything that lives in those planes could trick you into observing any number of things according to their purposes?

Since it has been recently posted in its entirety, you might want to read "Amazing Grace" especially noting the parts about what it is like to be gazed at by an otherworldly, cold, and malicious being out of the eyes of a possessed child. Then rethink your experiments. Of my few experiences with high strangeness, this is one I have had as well. I was at a religious ceremony thinking that something felt odd. I looked to my left and a mother with her baby was standing there. I swear that the baby was looking at me with the same malevolent glare Laura described witnessing from the possessed child in "Amazing Grace." Of course, I can prove nothing, but it was absolutely crazy. I know one thing. I certainly would not want to be on that thing's home turf, which is where you could be putting yourself with such experiments.

 

[Graalsword]

I think that the problem with it is that some esoterical traditions talked about "astral plane" to define more or less the ethereal realms in general, without being density-specific. It seems that it may refer to energy or all 'ethereal or spiritual substance' that surrounds physical realms regardless of level of consciousness of its inhabitants. I think that both things come from different nomenclature.

I am trying to improve my out of body technique (can't do them now), so I can explore by myself and see if the stuff out there in the astral is the 5D or is something else. Not sure I will even find an answer though till I really go the "other side"

I agree with Patience here. Before causing harm to yourself with an activity which you cannot really understand fully and control, it is better to acquire enough knowledge, what you wish to do it is not recommended at all for those who doesn't have really a lot of knowledge about non-physical realms, and probably those who have that knowledge are no longer interested in going out of their bodies, because they know that they should master 3D life before they can visit other realms harmlessly, FWIW.

There are a lot of articles where Laura wrote about this subjects, read or reread them if necessary, take care.

 

[Laura]

You might just want to read "Amazing Grace" where I talk a bit about years of conversations with dead dudes and attached entities, etc.