The astral plane vs 5D

[Eongar]

no, I read everything, but still can't manage to get a clear picture . I am getting more convinced that the astral plane may be a parallel level to the densities, let's see where this line of investigation takes me. I am trying to improve my out of body technique (can't do them now), so I can explore by myself and see if the stuff out there in the astral is the 5D or is something else. Not sure I will even find an answer though till I really go the "other side"

If you get into affairs of dragons, you will be lunch. I think as I mentioned, first learn the lessons of life. Have you read the material Gurdjieff, Ouspensky, Mouravieff or five major in psychology? if not, can be a good framework to begin to question you many many things to think about yourself and life was an illusion. What I mean by this is that if you put in doubt and you approach the reality of your experience and reliability of your sacred cows can stop drawing things on paper. It is necessary to empty the cup before making a move.

Practices Eolas Éiriú ?

 

[Cosmos]

You might just want to read "Amazing Grace" where I talk a bit about years of conversations with dead dudes and attached entities, etc.

you can find it here: http://cassiopaea.org/category/volumes/amazing-grace/

 

[Laura]

The most important thing I learned in years doing hypnotherapy, past-life therapy, spirit release, exorcism, etc, was: NEVER take the alleged discarnate at their word - and I have extended that dictum to the Cs Experiment.

Second most important: ALWAYS do a differential diagnosis.

 

[RedFox]

I am trying to improve my out of body technique (can't do them now), so I can explore by myself and see if the stuff out there in the astral is the 5D or is something else. Not sure I will even find an answer though till I really go the "other side"

I've mentioned this before to others (see here), but have you considered there may be a serious/healthy reason why you can't astral project? Just like there may be a serious/healthy reason why computers should have firewalls/virus killers?

A few things put an end to trying to persue such things. Firstly it is experience chasing, which is at best a distraction...Secondly it could well be doing damage/leaving the door open for 'others' to get in.

http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,5372.0.html

All right, MM took a
particular type of Reiki inititation or attumement today, and
I’d like to know, what was the... she had an event occur
during the attunements. I would like to know what this event
was. What this condition was that she experienced.
A: She should be careful not to “spread her self too thin.�
Q: (L) And what does that mean?
A: One does not need to cram learning, “steady as she goes.�
Q: (V) They’re punctually correct, aren’t they? (L) Yes, they
are! So, is that in a sense a caution?
A: Yes.
Q: (L) Can you describe what it was that was taking place
with her? Or define it?
A: Soul bilocation.
Q: (L) So, it was not exactly a state, as the Sufis describe?
A: No.
Q: (L) And where did she bilocate to?
A: Not easily explainable.
Q: (L) Was it to another density or dimension? Or parallel
univers or spiritual domain? (T) Norfolk Naval Station?
[Laughter] Destination of bilocation! (L) Was this a beneficial
event for her?
A: No. She has been ripping open the fabric too much.
Q: (V) Do you know what that means? (TM) The fabric of
this dimension? (L) Is T correct? The fabric of this dimension?
A: Close. Each soul has its own patterning, which is held in
place by the three bodies of existence [planchette swirls a few
times] ... “thought center, spirit center and physical center,�
there are specific methodologies for adjusting these, and
travelling into or out of other planes of existence. When one
does not properly utilize these, one tears the fabric of their
trilateral continuum when they seek to travel. This can be very
problematic, and may lead to the soul being unable to
reconnect with the body, thus causing the physical center to
perish!!!

 

[obyvatel]

I am getting more convinced that the astral plane may be a parallel level to the densities, let's see where this line of investigation takes me. I am trying to improve my out of body technique (can't do them now), so I can explore by myself and see if the stuff out there in the astral is the 5D or is something else. Not sure I will even find an answer though till I really go the "other side"

The astral body (which was a term coined by theosophists) has been known to exist in different traditions under different names. Gurdjieff had many interesting things to say about the astral body. His point of view was that not everyone has an astral body by default and such a body is grown by Work on the self.

[quote author=ISOTM]
"According to an ancient teaching, traces of which may be found in many systems, old and new, a man who has attained the full development possible for man, a man in the full sense of the word, consists of four bodies. These four bodies are composed of substances which gradually become finer and finer, mutually interpenetrate one another, and form four independent organisms, standing in a definite relationship to one another but capable of independent action.

"The reason why it is possible for four bodies to exist is that the human organism, that is, the physical body, has such a complex organization that, under certain conditions, a new independent organism can grow in it, affording a much more convenient and responsive instrument for the activity of consciousness than the physical body. The consciousness manifested in this new body is capable of governing it, and it has full power and full control over the physical body. In this second body, under certain conditions, a third body can grow, again having characteristics of its own. The consciousness manifested in this third body has full power and control over the first two bodies; and the third body possesses the possibility of acquiring knowledge inaccessible either to the first or to the second body. In the third body, under certain conditions, a fourth can grow, which differs as much from the third as the third differs from the second and the second from the first. The consciousness manifested in the fourth body has full control over the first three bodies and itself.
..........................

"The first is the physical body, in Christian terminology the 'carnal' body; the second, in Christian terminology, is the 'natural' body; the third is the 'spiritual' body; and the fourth, in the terminology of esoteric Christianity, is the 'divine' body. In theosophical terminology the first is the 'physical' body, the second is the 'astral,' the third is the 'mental,' and the fourth the 'causal.
..................................
But almost all these teachings, while repeating in a more or less familiar form the definitions and divisions of the ancient teaching, have forgotten or omitted its most important feature, which is: that man is not born with the finer bodies, and that they can only be artificially cultivated in him provided favorable conditions both internal and external are present.
"The 'astral body' is not an indispensable implement for man. It is a great luxury which only a few can afford. A man can live quite well without an 'astral body.' His physical body possesses all the functions necessary for life. A man without 'astral body' may even produce the impression of being a very intellectual or even spiritual man, and may deceive not only others but also himself.
"This applies still more, of course, to the 'mental body' and the fourth body. Ordinary man does not possess these bodies or their corresponding functions. But he often thinks, and makes others think, that he does. The reasons for this are, first, the fact that the physical body works with the same substances of which the higher bodies are composed, only these substances are not crystallized in him, do not belong to him; and secondly, it has all the functions analogous to those of the higher bodies
............................
The chief difference between the functions of a man possessing the physical body only and the functions of the four bodies, is that, in the first case, the functions of the physical body govern all the other functions, in other words, everything is governed by the body which, in its turn, is governed by external influences. In the second case, the command or control emanates from the higher body.
........................................
"In a man with two bodies the second body is active in relation to the physical body; this means that the consciousness in the 'astral body* may have power over the physical body."
..............
"In a man with three bodies, the third or 'mental body' is active in relation to the 'astral body' and to the physical body; this means that the consciousness in the 'mental body' has complete power over the 'astral body' and over the physical body."
.....................................
In a man with four bodies the active body is the fourth. This means that the consciousness in the fourth body has complete power over the 'mental,' the 'astral,' and the physical bodies."
.................
In one case all the functions are controlled by the physical body. It is active; in relation to it everything else is passive. In another case the second body has power over the physical. In the third case the 'mental' body has power over the 'astral' and the physical. And in the last case the fourth body has power over the first three.
We have seen before that in man of physical body only, exactly the same order of relationship is possible between his various functions. The physical functions may control feeling, thought, and consciousness. Feeling may control the physical functions. Thought may control the physical functions and feeling. And consciousness may control the physical functions, feeling, and thought.
...................
in relation to the functions of a man of physical body only, the automaton depends upon external influences, and the next three functions depend upon the physical body and the external influences it receives. Desires or aversions—'I want,' 'I don't want,' 'I like,' 'I don't like'—that is, functions occupying the place of the second body, depend upon accidental shocks and influences. Thinking, which corresponds to the functions of the third body, is an entirely mechanical process. 'Will' is absent in ordinary mechanical man, he has desires only; and a greater or lesser permanence of desires and wishes is called a strong or a weak will.

" In relation to the functions of the four bodies, the automatism of the physical body depends upon the influences of the other bodies. Instead of the discordant and often contradictory activity of different desires, there is one single I, whole, indivisible, and permanent; there is individuality, dominating the physical body and its desires and able to overcome both its reluctance and its resistance. Instead of the mechanical process of thinking there is consciousness. And there is will, that is, a power, not merely composed of various often contradictory desires belonging to different "I's," but issuing from consciousness and governed by individuality or a single and permanent I. Only such a will can be called "free," for it is independent of accident and cannot be altered or directed from without.
[/quote]

The astral body is said to be related to emotions and desires (the analogue of the "horse" in the commonly used carriage analogy ).

[quote author=ISOTM]
What is called according to one terminology the 'astral body,' is called in another terminology the 'higher emotional center,' although the difference here does not lie in the terminology alone. These are, to speak more correctly, different aspects of the next stage of man's evolution. It can be said that the 'astral body' is necessary for the complete and proper functioning of the 'higher emotional center' in unison with the lower. Or it can be said that the 'higher emotional center' is necessary for the work of the 'astral body.'
"The 'mental body' corresponds to the 'higher thinking center.' It would be wrong to say that they are one and the same thing. But one requires the other, one cannot exist without the other, one is the expression of certain sides and functions of the other.
"The fourth body requires the complete and harmonious working of all centers; and it implies, or is the expression of, complete control over this working.
[/quote]


G goes on to describe in more detail the process of the birth of an astral body through the process of transmutation with the help of the table of hydrogens and octaves. The details are best read in the book. But the following comment is worth remembering
[quote author=ISOTM]
"Completed transmutation, that is to say, the formation of the 'astral body,' is possible only in a healthy, normally functioning organism. In a sick, or a perverted, or a crippled organism, no transmutation is possible."
[/quote]
"Sick, perverted or crippled" here most likely does not refer to the physical but to the psychological aspects as we would commonly understand with our terminology.

David, this is why in this network, we stress on getting healthy first before making attempts to venture into other realms. At best, such efforts detract from the work at hand - that of getting healthy in regular life; at worst it would lead to exposure to dangerous situations if astral projections become successful. It is like a kid wandering off on his own in a jungle without having any knowledge or ability to protect himself from what may be out there. It is important to realize that no matter how smart and capable we may consider ourselves to be, in terms of non-physical realms we are worse off than little kids in a jungle.

Regarding the question of astral realms and 5D, consider the following comments in ISOTM
[quote author=ISOTM]
only very few men acquire an 'astral body.' If it is formed it may continue to live after the death of the physical body, and it may be born again in another physical body. This is 'reincarnation.' If it is not re-born, then, in the course of time, it also dies; it is not immortal but it can live long after the death of the physical body.
...................
if a man has the second body" (he placed the second body on the diagram parallel to the planets), "this second body is composed of material of the planetary world and it can survive the death of the physical body. It is not immortal in the full sense of the word, because after a certain period of time it also dies. But at any rate it does not die with the physical body.
"If a man has the third body" (he placed the third body on the diagram parallel to the sun), "it is composed of material of the sun and it can exist after the death of the 'astral' body.
"The fourth body is composed of material of the starry world, that is, of material that does not belong to the solar system, and therefore, if it has crystallized within the limits of the solar system there is nothing within this system that could destroy it. This means that a man possessing the fourth body is immortal within the limits of the solar system.
[/quote]

Regarding astral planes and densities,
[quote author=David Topi]
I am getting more convinced that the astral plane may be a parallel level to the densities
[/quote]
Density as far as we know is determined by the level of awareness. Astral realms could perhaps be closer to the idea of dimensions where in 3rd density, there could be infinite realms of physical or non-physical existence. I could be off though.
fwiw

 

[realitybugll]

Obyvatel,

I always had a problem with Gurdjieff's description of the bodies (and I guess never looked into it that much) because I was/am very identified with the projection experience. Also having the knowledge of many other people's astral projection accounts. I thought Gurdjieff was wrong that an Astral Body had to be developed because their is evidence, and my experience) that already we can astral project. And in theosophy "astral projection" is pretty much correlated with having an Astral Body. Actually I came to ISOTM after having read all three books of Robert Monroe so this can explain maybe...

But I realized from what you quoted that Gurdjieff is not saying the Astral body is required for projection. He doesn't mention projection at all, and gives the impression to me that a projection is possible with the physical body. No doubt an Astral Projection feels different (bodily) than a waking experience, but I see this does not mean that we have an astral body, And this "body" system explained by G. and other traditions is more complicated. I'm really surprised I would have discounted part of Gurdjieff's teaching so much because I am so intrigued by Gurdjieff as a person. But I always had some kind of reservation when it came to the explanation of the bodies, and don't think I understand it now.

Now I remember that Laura in the wave series works these bodies out in terms of 2D, 3D, 4D and 6D ( I think). The polarized densities.

thanks for sharing these quotes.

I think that Astral Projection is not a good use of time. Experience is really subjective, and how to understand it? why not just read of where others have gone, are you (no one in particular) "special" to ask the right questions etc.? But it's a good question how best to understand the "Astral realm" then to experience it...

Also, I have thought the "astral realm" from understanding from a theosophy book to be equivalent to the C's classification of 5D after I found the Cassiopaea material. Theosophy goes into large detailing of the astral plane. The C's speak very little in comparison (physical descriptions etc) of 5D. So it's hard to say... Singular similar thing is that this is where one goes for contemplation / to recycle back at the end of the life.

 

[Buddy]

I used to be crazy about the idea of exploring what I conceived as astral projection/travel. Today, however, I have to ask myself what makes me think that, even were I to achieve awesome results from the attempts while living in a body, why would I assume that there would be anything of me that would hold together when the body expires and I no longer had a life support line?

I guess that until I can answer that question, I'll worry that I'm wasting time better spent elsewhere, yet it's always been a fascinating topic to me!

 

[obyvatel]

Also, I have thought the "astral realm" from understanding from a theosophy book to be equivalent to the C's classification of 5D after I found the Cassiopaea material. Theosophy goes into large detailing of the astral plane. The C's speak very little in comparison (physical descriptions etc) of 5D. So it's hard to say... Singular similar thing is that this is where one goes for contemplation / to recycle back at the end of the life.

What I have gathered from tidbits of info about 5D is that it is the contemplation zone where lessons are reviewed in a timeless state. Accounts of experiences with discarnate entities sometimes encountered in channeling, exorcisms where entities may in some cases be guided towards the "light" which I take to be in the direction of 5D, as well as G's description of astral body of having a life span etc makes me think that 5D is not the same as what is generally described as an astral realm which some people can reach with OBE's and such.

In Kubler-Ross's work about life after death (summarized here ), she mentions that one exists in the astral form after death and encounters a possibility of crossing over to another realm where the contemplation takes place. Those who do probably enter 5D whereas those who refuse the crossing or are unable to do so for some reason continue on as earth-bound discarnates.

For entities in higher densities, astral (or physical) realms of lower densities would probably be accessible at will. However, for a 3rd density entity - even if capable of astral projections - would likely be limited to the realms of the same density level. These are just my current thoughts based on the available data.

 

[shijing]

I am an engineer, so my mind is pretty much schematic, and if it does not fit in an visual schema is it hard for me to grasp it. Then the model would be something like:

3D --> 4D --> 5D --> etc

------> Astral planes ------->

both things above being parallel?

It really helps me to use visuals to understand things as well. I think that the schema you outlined above is close to my present understanding. The one thing that I would add is that the density framework can be visualized in a fairly concrete way -- my favorite is the Tree of Life, such as the one that Laura adapted in Secret History:

It's a closed system with hierarchical structure for a specific purpose (that of a school). The astral planes, on the other hand, are more amorphous -- they seem to be a state or mode of ethereal existence with room for all kinds of entities and environments.

That indeed reminds me of something more, the "walls" and "membranes" that you encounter when astral projecting that do not allow you to "go" beyond some points, that could be well the energy walls separating both awareness or vibrational levels. Not sure still at this point about this...

I think that's a reasonable hypothesis. Etheric beings (including the etheric "half" of us that is not material), in my understanding, have different vibrational levels corresponding to awareness and polarity. As you suggested, this probably could be measured and quantified in some way, although we may not have the technical ability to do so in practice. This would, however, be the most obvious intersection between the astral planes and the density hierarchy. Entities with the same or similar vibrational levels are able to be "in phase" and interact with each other much more easily than those which have dissimilar vibrational levels.

The duality mentioned, they say, is that they experience their existence/being at the particular level of density as half in the body and half completely ethereal and timeless. When a soul has advanced to the point where they no longer need to incarnate into a physical body for experiences for further learning, they will advance to perhaps first to 5th density and then to 6th density.

This is my understanding as well. You might think of material existence as a kind of virtual reality (i.e. the Matrix movies), which is subordinate to ethereal existence. In our current reality, it seems as though the material half is dominant and the ethereal illusory -- and it's apparently set up that way in order to accelerate our learning, because we won't learn effectively if we don't really believe it is 'real' according to our physical senses. In the end, the virtual material experience runs its course and there's nothing more (substantially) we can learn from it, so it gets 'retired' upon graduation to fifth density. Entities in the astral planes who don't (or aren't) incarnate are essentially not using this short-wave cycle virtual reality tool to learn, make choices, and ultimately accelerate change in their Frequency Resonance Vibration.

David, this is why in this network, we stress on getting healthy first before making attempts to venture into other realms. At best, such efforts detract from the work at hand - that of getting healthy in regular life; at worst it would lead to exposure to dangerous situations if astral projections become successful. It is like a kid wandering off on his own in a jungle without having any knowledge or ability to protect himself from what may be out there. It is important to realize that no matter how smart and capable we may consider ourselves to be, in terms of non-physical realms we are worse off than little kids in a jungle.

I think that point can't be overemphasized. Another consideration in line with what Redfox posted above is that if you try to engage in astral travel without really understanding how to do it, it would be like yanking the cord straight out of the back of your head in the Matrix without going through the safety protocols. A more mundane analogy would be removing an external device from your computer without first 'ejecting' it -- it can damage the entire system.

Besides the danger involved, think of it this way -- since you are incarnated here, you may assume that you've chosen to use this virtual 3D reality to learn specific lessons. By trying to leave the body, it's like suddenly walking out in the middle of class to go play outside (where, as obyvatel says, it's a jungle). It might seem tempting as you're looking out through the windows of the classroom, but you're going to forfeit the benefit of the lessons and increase the chances that you're going to have to repeat the class all over again.

I always had a problem with Gurdjieff's description of the bodies (and I guess never looked into it that much) because I was/am very identified with the projection experience. Also having the knowledge of many other people's astral projection accounts. I thought Gurdjieff was wrong that an Astral Body had to be developed because their is evidence, and my experience) that already we can astral project. And in theosophy "astral projection" is pretty much correlated with having an Astral Body.

Gurdjieff's definition of the astral body may be more specific than the etheric body that some people have utilized for various kinds of OBEs. The key seems to be in the part of the Gurdjieff quote that obyvatel bolded above (the substances of this body are not crystallized, but still have "all the functions analogous to those of the higher bodies".) In my understanding, the growth and crystallization of Gurdjieff's astral and mental bodies is a necessity for graduation to 4D -- the mere existence of an etheric body is not (even 1D may have it's own kind of etheric body).

What I have gathered from tidbits of info about 5D is that it is the contemplation zone where lessons are reviewed in a timeless state. Accounts of experiences with discarnate entities sometimes encountered in channeling, exorcisms where entities may in some cases be guided towards the "light" which I take to be in the direction of 5D, as well as G's description of astral body of having a life span etc makes me think that 5D is not the same as what is generally described as an astral realm which some people can reach with OBE's and such.

This is my understanding too. 5D seems to be a specific place 'within the school', administered by 5th density beings, where 1st-4th density beings visit temporarily between physical incarnations for the review of past and planning of future lessons in the appropriate lower densities. The astral realms seem to be more of a kind of etheric wilderness outside of the school.

 

[realitybugll]

What I have gathered from tidbits of info about 5D is that it is the contemplation zone where lessons are reviewed in a timeless state. Accounts of experiences with discarnate entities sometimes encountered in channeling, exorcisms where entities may in some cases be guided towards the "light" which I take to be in the direction of 5D, as well as G's description of astral body of having a life span etc makes me think that 5D is not the same as what is generally described as an astral realm which some people can reach with OBE's and such.

if a man has the second body" (he placed the second body on the diagram parallel to the planets), "this second body is composed of material of the planetary world and it can survive the death of the physical body. It is not immortal in the full sense of the word, because after a certain period of time it also dies.

This is strange. Gurdjieff gives the astral body a defined existence, not abstract. it has life and death. maybe what he is saying is that after death you could maintain your (3D limited) consciousness in the astral body i.e "living"... and indeed maybe investigate fifth density like an astral traveler. But then this would die and the recycling process begins to which you reunite with the higher consciousness... knowledge of past reincarnations, connect to higher emotional center? etc.

And in theosophy the general summary is that this recycling process is a shedding off of the courser substances to reach the higher consciousness. This involves life reflection. can be traumatic and/or healing.

I still equate the two concepts generally in my mind.

For entities in higher densities, astral (or physical) realms of lower densities would probably be accessible at will. However, for a 3rd density entity - even if capable of astral projections - would likely be limited to the realms of the same density level. These are just my current thoughts based on the available data.

I think it depends how we conceive density. For instance, we have Alien Abductions of third density which occur, you could say, in fourth density. No matter what any higher density experience is translated to third density perspective. So it could be said that a higher density is not experienced as it is by 3D. And the experience exists as a memory. For consciously induced OoBE, recollection is usually the very hard part. Can be easy depending on emotional impact. but normally the longer you draw out an experience the harder it is to remember when you come back. And it is not like you have a different consciousness or super consciousness, just mundane but hard to recall your actions and intent. Sometimes, I know that people do this, Leave for 10 minutes... come back, dictate, leave for ten minutes more... when in the right mode.

This subject always gets me thinking lots. There is a few different sources that form my understanding but a lot of dots not connected. That I always have the urge to connect. someday I might give time for this...

main sources are:
Lucid Dreaming Forum
The Astral Plane: Its Scenery, Inhabitants And Phenomena by C. W. Leadbeater (Theosophy--this one free on Amazon)
Astral Dynamics - Robert Bruce
Castaneda - The Art of Dreaming

And of course Wave and C's transcripts which is essential. So many interesting ideas... but hard to make sense of.

 

[kenlee]

I'm really surprised I would have discounted part of Gurdjieff's teaching so much because I am so intrigued by Gurdjieff as a person. But I always had some kind of reservation when it came to the explanation of the bodies, and don't think I understand it now.

It may be that our 2nd body (the astral body or the natural body of the Christian teachings) is in a formless, embryonic state to begin with and only proper kinds of foods is required for its growth. Gurdjieff spoke of "cosmic substances" that are in the air we breathe (which are not yet detected by contemporary science) and these substances must be collected and utilized to build the inner being body (in this case the astral body) but it depends on the level of one's inner development.

A more developed person will take in far more of these cosmic substances then an "ordinary" person who lives their lives automatically and mechanically. An ordinary person (just as an example) might take in let's say maybe 5 of these substances when they breathe but a more developed person might take in something like a 100 or more. Thus a more developed person will have more of these active substances available to grow and vitalize their inner bodies.

Gurdjieff spoke of air as being the second being food (physical food as the first being food and impressions as the third being food) but as I understand it, it's not so much the air we breathe but its these cosmic substances within the air which builds the astral body (which corresponds to the horse/feelings/emotions that G talks about when he talks about man in terms of the parable of the horse, carriage, and driver in Ouspensky's book 'In Search Of the Miraculous'.

There is the carriage/planetary body. Then there is the horse/feelings/ emotions (the astral body). Then there is the driver/intellect /mind or (the mental body or spiritual body), and then there is the 'master' (conscious mind, will, single 'I') which is the divine body of the Christian teachings or the causal body of the Theosophists.

As I understand it the development of the astral or second body depends on the assimilation of these cosmic substances in the air through proper conscious breathing along with (and equally important) what Gurdjieff refers to as "conscious labor and intentional suffering". This conscious practice/discipline allows these cosmic substances in the air to collect and saturate in the system to the point of crystallization allowing for the growth of these inner being bodies without wasting and losing these active substances on unconscious mechanical behavior, identifications, useless muscular tensions, uncontrolled emotional outbursts, etc.

First the second 'finer' body is formed (within the planetary body), then within the second body the third 'finer' body is formed and then finally within that, the fourth 'finer' body is formed. But as I understand it they must be crystallized from a saturated concentration of these higher substances which come from the emanations of the planets, the starry world and even from the emanations coming from the 'Sun Absolute.'

As I understand it the astral body is pretty much formless as it is (before it's growth, crystallization and development) and it can literally become an "immortal thing" if not consciously developed and, if undeveloped in its formless state (more or less) it can literally take the shape of our identifications which means it is completely controlled and shaped by external influences.

G spoke of how some people who smoke a pipe could become so identified with the pipe that they actually become a pipe themselves. This may mean that their formless astral body can literally take the form of a pipe from a strong identification with it and they literally become a pipe themselves in that sense. They have no conscious control of this. It just 'happens' because of their identification with something external to themselves and there is no inner vehicle or "being body" within them that could support their consciousness and will and through which their consciousness and will could act and express itself through.

 

[John G]

There was this session answer: A: Corrections and clarifications needed: "Dead Dudes" are 5th density beings. Either they are stuck in 3rd density, or they are communicating from 5th density, not 3rd density!! They are not 3rd density!

So "dead dude" attachements could be 5th density beings in the 3rd density realm and channeling a 5th density being could sometimes be one actually in the 5th density realm. This seems to fit with what Laura describes in Amazing Grace too.

From Cassiopedia entry on "bodies": The ideas of the higher bodies and of the higher centers are not exactly the same. We could say that constructing the higher bodies corresponds to making the higher functioning permanent. The astral and the next higher body, variously called atman or soul are the only ones that survive physical death. We can only speak of purposeful reincarnation if these bodies exist and have cohesion. Otherwise we may only speak of a mechanical recycling of patterns or of looping of a film.

So growing the "body" connection to higher centers seems like part of the process of advancing to a higher density being more permanently than just recycling.

 

[David Topi]

Hi all,
what an interesting thread . Just answering in general, yes, I am aware of the deceptions and lies of the neg.entities everywhere, I am dealing with them everyday, so this is why I have learned what I know about the control system before I even knew there was something called the c's that were explaining it (and of course the books from Laura give the whole concept and draw the picture very clear).

About astral travel, thanks for the advice but it is something I regard as normal, does not generate any fear and it is an "ability" that anyone do have or can get if you just work on it. My main difficulty is controlling the conscious exit of the body, as this is a part I am particularly interested in, so to have a fully controlled projection.

In any case, thanks for the concerns, I believe it is a great tool for exploration in parallel with a fully personal and spiritual development within the 3D parameters, so it can be combined. I do not believe there is any other "way" to explore the unknown but go a see it for yourself (I maybe wrong, and nobody says it is easy, but ok, it is part of my own growth I guess).

cheers

 

[Laura]

You know, I had to stop meditating because I kept leaving the body and I didn't find that to be a fruitful activity in terms of serving others - it's all pretty much self-centered and about "experience" for the self. Reading Ibn al-Arabi helped a lot because he points out that spiritual development is not about experiences.

Nowadays most people interested in the spirituality of the East desire the “experience,” though they may call what they are after intimate communion with God. Those familiar with the standards and norms of spiritual experience set down by disciplined paths like Sufism are usually appalled at the way Westerners seize upon any apparition from the domain outside of normal consciousness as a manifestation of the “spiritual.” In fact, there are innumerable realms in the unseen world, some of them far more dangerous than the worst jungles of the visible world.

So preserve yourselves, my brothers, from the calamities of this place, for distinguishing it is extremely difficult! Souls find it sweet, and then within it they are duped, since they become completely enamored of it.

And then, of course, there is what the Cs had to say about how we deal with our lives/reality:

Q: (L) Well, how in the heck am I supposed to get there if I
can't "get it?"
A: Who says you have to "get it" before you get there?
Q: (L) Well, that leads back to: what is the wave going to do
to expand this awareness? Because, if the wave is what
"gets you there," what makes this so?
A: No. It is like this: After you have completed all your
lessons in "third grade," where do you go?
Q: (L) So, it is a question of...
A: Answer, please.
Q: (L) You go to fourth grade.
A: Okay, now, do you have to already be in 4th grade in order
to be allowed to go there? Answer.
Q: (L) No. But you have to know all the 3rd density things...
A: Yes. More apropos: you have to have learned all of the
lessons.
Q: (L) What kind of lessons are we talking about here?
A: Karmic and simple understandings.
Q: (L) What are the key elements of these understandings, and
are they fairly universal?
A: They are universal.
Q: (L) What are they?
A: We cannot tell you that.
Q: (L) Do they have to do with discovering the MEANINGS of
the symbology of 3rd density existence, seeing behind the
veil... and reacting to things according to choice?
Giving each thing or person or event its due?
A: Okay. But you cannot force the issue. When you have
learned, you have learned!

and...

Life is religion. Life experiences reflect how one interacts with God. Those who are asleep are those of little faith in terms of their interaction with the creation. Some people think that the world exists for them to overcome or ignore or shut out. For those individuals, the worlds will cease. They will become exactly what they give to life. They will become merely a dream in the "past." People who pay strict attention to objective reality right and left, become the reality of the "Future."

 

[RedFox]

About astral travel, thanks for the advice but it is something I regard as normal, does not generate any fear and it is an "ability" that anyone do have or can get if you just work on it. My main difficulty is controlling the conscious exit of the body, as this is a part I am particularly interested in, so to have a fully controlled projection.

As a small kid I would have spontaneous OBE's quite regularly (usually whilst falling asleep), use to lucid dream spontaneously, have had spontaneous abilities (seeing auras, telekinesis, telepathy) happen on many occasions, and before finding this forum was quite fixated on trying to consciously astral project/lucid dream. Having had years and years of it (just happening by itself) I can say that it has served no real useful/tangible purpose other than perhaps reminding me in my darkest moments there is more to life than what we see with our two eyes.....so perhaps this is the question you are seeking 'proof of'?
Mostly when I did master the odd thing (never did get astral projection, but did manage lucid dreaming), it became just another escape method. A dissociative activity akin to TV or video games. Sure I thought I was learning things and 'being spiritual'....all the time ignoring (blocking out) my life and my emotions and mental and physical well being.

In any case, thanks for the concerns, I believe it is a great tool for exploration in parallel with a fully personal and spiritual development within the 3D parameters, so it can be combined. I do not believe there is any other "way" to explore the unknown but go a see it for yourself (I maybe wrong, and nobody says it is easy, but ok, it is part of my own growth I guess).

I use to feel that way too....I had to see/touch/feel/experience 'god'/'other' in order for it to be real. This came from several things....mostly fear of death (being final) - which was actually a fear of engaging in life. Also a feeling that 'my soul was missing'....so I wanted to find it.
I couldn't see how diet or breathing or psychology or reading or emotional recapitulation was related to any of that. Turns out those things have brought me closer to the Divine than anything else...

Just as astral projection is normal and anyone could access it (I'm pretty sure its really common to do automatically), so is our connection to the 'unknown' natural and normal and anyone could access it (and probably do at some level quite regularly/automatically).....trouble is we are all so loaded with toxins/eating the wrong diets/full of emotional traumas and programs that we become separated from these things...they become distorted. So with everything in our lives we seek escape/confirmation/comfort into something 'other'....missing that the disconnect can be fixed with 'mundane' 3D things.
It can even be that lacking real unconditional love from our parents we seek to find it in 'god'...we seek comfort (parental love - which will never happen) in the wrong place - repeatedly. For some they do this by ending up in abusive relationships, others can do this by 'seeking god'/new age 'experiences'.

But after all that, it then all comes down to ones aim....

You know, I had to stop meditating because I kept leaving the body and I didn't find that to be a fruitful activity in terms of serving others - it's all pretty much self-centered and about "experience" for the self.

...what do you want to do with your life? Is it in you to help others? Does astral projecting (or drinking or playing video games or watching TV etc) serve yourself or help others with there lives? Do your activities reduce the suffering of others on this planet (if that is what you want to do)?

It may be worth thinking about your aim in life....and also, considering (perhaps) how is astral projecting any different from, say sitting and watching youtube, or playing computer games (you 'learn' lots of things from both that don't help you in real life - you're also not DOing anything of any use to anyone but yourself)?