The 'brain chip dilemma' :)

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I think that I would have the chip implant given the choice. I see my brain as a form of computer already, so the implant would be like an upgrade, hopefully allowing my thoughts to flow in a more logical and efficient manner. It would be kind of like laser eye surgery for your brain, making fuzzy concepts like hedge funds and market cycles easier to understand. Being a math geek, I would love the ability to calculate things like the fifth root of pi squared on six in my head. More intelligence to me means faster computing, better memory and better association skills. These are things that I will be spending the rest of my life working to improve anyways, if I can find a way to increase them, it does not mean I will have to do less work, but that the work I do will lead me to further conclusions. I don't think it would make people lazy, they would still have to work for the knowledge. Sure the ones with chips may be able to understand quantum mechanics, but they won't really understand it unless they are willing to work for it. Those willing to put in the time and the work would be rewarded with increased mental output, while those who take the easy route will continue to sleep the days away in their happy comatose state. The failure rate is quite low and a 10% decrease would not be that bad, nothing that would concern me too much. The only thing that would cause concern is who/what controls the chip. if it was like a pacemaker, where it is just inserted and it does it job with any other input, I would be fine. But any device able to alter my behavior through outside influences would obviously not work.
 
Rockimedes said:
I think that I would have the chip implant given the choice. I see my brain as a form of computer already, so the implant would be like an upgrade, hopefully allowing my thoughts to flow in a more logical and efficient manner.
But there's that 1 chance in 10 that you'd receive a downgrade. Is the risk worth it?
 
Zadius Sky said:
Keit said:
I don't have a degree ;)
I have three, but having degrees still haven't make me any smarter. I felt like I just graduated from high school. But, I'd like to think of having degree being equal to having a brain chip.
Well, I meant that if lot of good and well-paid jobs would require having brain chip, like they require having university degree (it's like this in Israel anyway), lot of people would be forced to have it just to be able to get a decent job. If the society would be similar to this one, why would bosses take a person without a chip when they can have brain chip "enhanced" employee?
And that what I mean when I said that it's easy to say no for a chip right now when such decision doesn't determine if person will have enough money for basic needs like food and shelter. So right now it's easy for me to say no, I won't take it ;)
 
Keit said:
Zadius Sky said:
Keit said:
I don't have a degree ;)
I have three, but having degrees still haven't make me any smarter. I felt like I just graduated from high school. But, I'd like to think of having degree being equal to having a brain chip.
Well, I meant that if lot of good and well-paid jobs would require having brain chip, like they require having university degree (it's like this in Israel anyway), lot of people would be forced to have it just to be able to get a decent job. If the society would be similar to this one, why would bosses take a person without a chip when they can have brain chip "enhanced" employee?
And that what I mean when I said that it's easy to say no for a chip right now when such decision doesn't determine if person will have enough money for basic needs like food and shelter. So right now it's easy for me to say no, I won't take it ;)
Keit,

How far would you go in order to satisfy the requirements of the forced "environment" to survive?


Prosthetic arm to hold more...

Prosthetic legs to stand for longer periods to sort recycling trash...

Arms, legs, how about mood enhancing drugs to make the day go by without any "controversial" thoughts?


I'm taking your proposed "what if" scenario of singularly corporate existance to extremes, but where would you draw the line and why?
 
Azur said:
Keit,

How far would you go in order to satisfy the requirements of the "environment" to survive?

Prosthetic arm to hold more...

Prosthetic legs to stand for longer periods to sort recycling trash...

Arms, legs, how about mood enhancing drugs to make the day go by without any "controversial" thoughts?

I'm taking your proposed "what if" scenario of singularly corporate existance to extremes, but where would you draw the line and why?
I gave this example only to add an additional aspect to this hypothetical question in order to show
that answers and reasons for having or not having a chip may be different if we would add specific condition to this hypothetical situation or actually face it one day. Thats all. It has nothing to do with my own personal hypothetical or actual choices.
 
Keit said:
Azur said:
Keit,

How far would you go in order to satisfy the requirements of the "environment" to survive?

Prosthetic arm to hold more...

Prosthetic legs to stand for longer periods to sort recycling trash...

Arms, legs, how about mood enhancing drugs to make the day go by without any "controversial" thoughts?

I'm taking your proposed "what if" scenario of singularly corporate existance to extremes, but where would you draw the line and why?
I gave this example only to add an additional aspect to this hypothetical question in order to show
that answers and reasons for having or not having a chip may be different if we would add specific condition to this hypothetical situation or actually face it one day. Thats all. It has nothing to do with my own personal hypothetical or actual choices.
That's fair.

But hypothetically, if you needed a chip in order to get a job in order to eat, would that be acceptable, "just the way things are"?
 
Azur said:
But hypothetically, if you needed a chip in order to get a job in order to eat, would that be acceptable, "just the way things are"?
I probably wont get it.
Just like today I know that I could get much better job and more money, but I chose not to make sacrifices it requires because I don't see it as something worth spending my life on just because the things the way they are.
 
I would never ever want chips inside my body, because I don't want to become a ''cyborg''.
 
Keit said:
Azur said:
But hypothetically, if you needed a chip in order to get a job in order to eat, would that be acceptable, "just the way things are"?
I probably wont get it.
Just like today I know that I could get much better job and more money, but I chose not to make sacrifices it requires because I don't see it as something worth spending my life on just because the things the way they are.
Not all jobs require paper (a degree) to accomplish the earning potential. There are jobs where paper is necessary, and the income is steady. Then there are jobs where no paper is required and the income is much better. Perhaps some of those are a little more physical, but many do take an organized mind to do.

This is why I don't think a chip would make a good argument for betterment in lifestyle, or anything else. And quite often, degrees have nothing to do with it. More to the point, laziness has much to do with it. Those who can afford the increased ability will get chipped.

If it's available, cheaply to all, that would make me doubly suspicious. Heck, it's only a button away from mass control, OSIT.
 
Yes, I think you right. I am just inventing excuses for others.

And just to give you an example: I asked my bf about it. He said without hesitation that he would get one but only after this 10% risk is eliminated and it will become safe and common procedure. Yep..he has no problem what so ever with this stuff – just plug him in. Quite disturbing. But he sees it as an opportunity and actually sure that future will come when humanity will be closer to star trek technological level. And he sees it as an advancement/evolution. But he is forgetting and ignoring the most important aspect of star trek world vision - moral (soul related) development of humanity along with technological. And it is obvious that right now humanity undergoing degradation and not progression in moral/ soul area. And sadly, lot of 'intellectual' people like him don't see any problem with the world and sure that science/technology hold all the keys to human evolution.
 
Azur said:
Prosthetic legs to stand for longer periods to sort recycling trash...
Got me one of them wooden legs...
No electronics, basically hinged wood, metal pins at the knee and ankle, and a rubber foot.

Perhaps there is a difference between a need and a want.?.?.?
 
Keit said:
Well, I meant that if lot of good and well-paid jobs would require having brain chip, like they require having university degree (it's like this in Israel anyway), lot of people would be forced to have it just to be able to get a decent job. If the society would be similar to this one, why would bosses take a person without a chip when they can have brain chip "enhanced" employee?
I see what you are saying. That would make sense if our government or employer 'forced' us to take a brain chip (and of course, degree) to become a better citizen or better employee. If I would given a choice to take a brain chip to become a 'enhanced' employee, then no I take my stuff and leave the country or get a small paying job that requires no brain chip. There is no way that I would take a brain chip if it would become controlled by the government at a later time.

I'm wearing a hearing aid, and if a government input a command through my hearing aid, telling me: "Kill your co-workers." I would get up and take my hearing aid and throw it out the window and say "no, thank you." But, having a brain chip, it would be very hard to take it out and throw it unless I cut off my head and throw it about a second before I hit the floor.

But, you made a good point as to having brain chip is similar to having degree to get a better job.

Azur said:
But hypothetically, if you needed a chip in order to get a job in order to eat, would that be acceptable, "just the way things are"?
I still vote for not getting it and take my chances in the 'wild'. When comes to making a choice to live as comformed citzen or to survive as an individual soul, I'll take the survival.
 
Depends on a lot of things, but I can't say I wouldn't take it under some circumstances, even if under most I would not. I'm not completely against it, but I think its a complicated area so I can't just say yes or no :p
 
Some thoughts (some of which already brought up)..

What happens if the chip breaks/malfunctions/crashes? After all, that's what computers/software/hardware does, no exceptions, all of it.
What about the fact that the vast majority of the population simply chooses not to think anyway?
As many have mentioned, just what is "power of the intellect"? The mind is capable of so many different functions and kinds of thinking on so many different levels, it could be any one of them. Is it understanding abstract ideas? Doing logical operations like math? Is it creativity? Is it being able to see connections better between seemingly unrelated things? Maybe retaining and recalling information better? Does it make you more curious/excited about learning? Does it make you think the same stupid things you've always thought, just faster (as someone already mentioned)? Maybe give our predator a nice boost then? My point being, we don't know what "thinking" really means, as so much is involved, it's nuts! And until I know what thinking means, I can't simply take something that makes "thinking", whatever that is, 40% better. I have some very very vague notion of what is intellectual ability, or what is consciousness, etc. But the little vague idea I do have is already complex enough to make "raising intellectual capacity" a silly idea, as much as just saying "We make your brain better!".

So what is thought? What is consciousness? What is "intelligence"? What is "smart"? What is intellectual capacity/ability? Personally I have no clue, just some vague ideas from experience. For example, as we learned from Gurdjieff and other esoteric sources, most people do not "think", they react, they process info as a computer - but can you call what a computer does "thinking"? Is reactionary "thinking" the same as conscious thinking? What about critical thinking? What about creative thinking? Abstract thinking? Even if we assume that those who designed the chip are some super-human forces who know the human brain exactly inside and out, it doesn't mean that I do, so why would I be taking something I don't understand? The term "intellectual capacity" means almost nothing to me. Until I know exactly what will be enhanced and in what way, and that it will NOT have any side-effects that the chip creators themselves don't know about, how could I take such a mysterious object?

Plus, I don't need the chip to have common sense. If I myself can be certain about what this chip will and will not do, which means I know exactly how the brain works, know exactly that this chip cannot possibly have side effects because I myself know the brain inside and out on all levels of reality, then guess what? I'm already on 6th density, no need for chip! It seems that the requirement to really know the effects of this chip is to already be beyond the capacity of any such chip to help you. And if you're not, you're blindly doing something you don't understand, filling in the blanks with assumptions and wishful thinking. I think very bad idea. I have only one certain way I know of to "enhance" myself - live life, learn.

Also what about what the C's said about the effect of using drugs to try to get a glimpse into other "realities". Would this chip also be a similar self-imposed abrigement of free will? The chip is not your brain, it's a foreign element, and the brain would rely upon it, and probably would actually become 40% "dumber" just to balance itself out with its new addition. Like a wheel chair - if yo use it when you have healthy legs, you won't have healthy legs for long, the muscles will atrophy since you rely on the wheel chair now. So the brain performed on a certain level cuz it had to, but if it has a crutch, it might, like a muscle, decide to atrophy as the crutch does all the work now. And the result is, when that chip does break as all mechanical/electrical things do, you'll may be so retarded/messed up, you'd probably ruin any and all potential for real advancement in this lifetime.

Having said that, let's not ignore that we can re-wire our brains anyway through conscious effort. We can make ourselves smarter, raise our intellectual capacity through the roof if we really practice and put in the effort. The very little we know about our brain and genetics, is enough to see how unlimited we really are. No need for attempting free lunch experiments, osit.

Not to say that we need certainty to make a choice. We have no certainty about anything in life but we make choices based on incomplete info anyway, we have to. But some things are just unnecessary risks, especially considering that we have no evidence that our brains are in fact, limited anyway. I know my computer is, so I can upgrade it and know exactly what that will do. But I'd not dare mess with the brain, it's not just a "computer", not by far. Just the mere possibility that this is an interface between my soul and the physical world is enough for me to back off and not mess with what I don't understand. It's ok if I mess up my computer, or if I'm tricked into installing a "helpful software" that is actually a virus, that's ok. I'm not gonna take that chance for my brain! :)
 
I would not take the chip for several reasons. The first being that just like everything else someone may come along and want to use the technology for their own interest by trying to control my thoughts, behaviors ect... The second reason is if this is a chip and it is emitting any kind of energy, can this cause cancer or some other illness in my body? I've seen reports over the years about people living under power lines having higher incidences of cancers especially children, there were reports and stories about cell phone batteries increasing brain cancers in those who used them heavily--can you imagine putting a chip that is emitting some type of foreign energy into your body? No thanks.
 
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