The Case for Eating more Carbs in the Evening

[Ant22]

I wanted to ask Ant if she maybe lost too many kilos like I did? My BMI is currently 17.5 which is officially underweight.

Hi Martina, I've always been a skinny person, despite the fact that I always ate a lot. I just checked some random online BMI calculator and it tells me mine is 17.4. High five!

My recent ketogenic diet approach actually enabled me to put on a wee bit of weight, which I'm really happy about. Prior to that, my BMI was 16.6, and it's likely it will go back to that level. I was always told by doctors that I was underweight but although I did want to be a bit bigger I can't say I've ever been particularly worried. The whole world was on a diet and I was living off pizzas and snickers bars. The tiny body posture seemed like the lesser of two evils. Well, I may now be paying the price for my crap diet back then though

I think BMI is a very black-and-white approach to weight. I don't think it tells the full story and determines someone's health. How do you feel with the weight you lost? In another thread you mentioned you can live off lard, I take it you're in ketosis? How do you feel in terms of energy levels? How is your digestion?

 

[Ant22]

I just wanted to thank everyone who took their time to respond. It's getting late here now so I'll reply to remaining posts tomorrow. I am going to sleep in a much lighter mood and with a sense of a dietary adventure ahead of me thanks to your feedback

 

[Yas]

Do you mind if I ask what your diet is like now? Are you still in ketosis?

I'm not sure if I'm in ketosis because I don't measure it and I don't really keep a count on how many carbs I eat nowadays. But my diet is basically meat and some veggies, that's all. I did add a few things lately like rice once in a while and I started trying more veggies like pumpkins, beetroots, carrots, onions and sauerkraut and it was OK at first, but then I noticed that if I start eating them on a regular basis, I start having some symptoms. So I went back to semi-carnivore, because I do eat cassava root and sweet potatoes from time to time, as well as rice crackers which are only rice, salt and water. These are all high on carbs, so I do eat carbs. I'm drinking water kefir as well. I have a bit of chocolate or a fruit occasionally (I like fruits a lot and they are abundant in my country so it's like a little treat from time to time ). I also drink coffee occasionally. This seems to work well for me so far.

Well Yas, it could have referred to myself. This comment made me wonder whether my health issues are in fact psychosomatic. If they are, then I’m even more at my wits end becuase I’ve no idea how to address them. On the other hand, iodine and other advice here on the forum has helped big time so I think there must be a physical aspect to it. And many other people here have had similar health problems so maybe I shouldn't generalise based on a comment referring to a specific case.

Oh, no. I didn't mean to say that your issues are psychosomatic, or 100% caused by emotions. I'm sorry if that's what you understood. What I wanted to say is that, from what I've learnt so far, sometimes it's both things. There is a physical aspect to the illness, of course, but there's also an emotional connection to it that's worth exploring. But it's important to deal with the physical aspects of it first and foremost... those emotional connections might be a complementary approach to help the healing.

A book on that would help, if my body wants to tell me something it will have to learn English because I am rather useless at decoding potential hints it’s sending me

Haha, yes, it's hard to understand it. I don't think I learnt its language either. The book that was mentioned in other discussions was this and this, by Louise Hay. And there are also websites that list some of the illnesses. Then I usually do google searches on the topic and see what I can find too.

I agree with the others, Ant22, don't worry too much about being in ketosis if that's not working for you. Try to find what suits you best. But I'd say, give the carnivore diet or the elimination diet a try when you can and see how it goes.

Good luck in the journey!

 

[Beau]

Haha, yes, it's hard to understand it. I don't think I learnt its language either. The book that was mentioned in other discussions was this and this, by Louise Hay. And there are also websites that list some of the illnesses. Then I usually do google searches on the topic and see what I can find too.

I use this site to look up Louise Hay's "underlying cause of illnesses": The Pagan's Path ~ The Healing Circle - Common Ailments & Their Underlying Metaphysical Causes

 

[Ant22]

FWIW, my current preference is for the diagnostic methods of applied kinesiology, which do have their limitations, but are better than most I've found, and I wrote about my experience pretty extensively here:

SOTT Exclusive: What is Applied Kinesiology and what can it do for you? -- Sott.net

Hey Foxx, thanks for sharing! I read your article a while back and although I found it very informative I didn't go ahead with Applied Kinesiology. I guess I was still hoping that yet another dietary tweak will help. And yet here I am.

I think it's time to give it a go: I booked a session with an Applied Kinesiologist for tomorrow at 9.30am. I'm not holding my breath that it will solve all my issues, but I am quite curious about it.

 

[Ant22]

I'd agree with this also. The good thing about the carnivore diet is there's no counting anything - ketones, calories, protein or fat. You just eat meat and salt (I would say go heavy on the salt, particularly during transition. Add a pinch to your water whenever you drink. It really helps with transition symptoms). No restricting protein to try to get ketone levels up, no peeing on sticks, no eating more fat than seems natural. I've been reading "Fat of the Land" by Vilhjalmur Stefansson who was an arctic explorer in the early 1900s. His recounting of the way people ate is pretty amazing - just fatty muscle meat, not even the organs (they gave them to the dogs, except for some situations where they'd feed the kidneys to children). They obviously weren't concerned with whether or not they were in ketosis. They just ate what they ate and felt good about it.

It makes a lot more sense to me than creating a non-intuitive eating regime by striking a precarious balance between macronutrients. I think a ketogenic diet is great as a therapeutic diet, particularly for certain conditions that benefit from raised ketone levels (epilepsy, dementia, cancer), but for others, the carnivore diet seems to make more sense. Carnivore dieters are no doubt in ketosis sometimes, maybe even most of the time, but it's not an issue.

But if you're not into the idea of doing just meat, maybe keep your diet just a meat-heavier version of what you're doing for the time being. Don't pack in tons of extra fat, but just eat as fatty as you feel comfortable with.

This whole carnivore business actually makes a lot of sense and the fact is that the best I've felt was when I had a lot of meat, a bit of carbs and quite a bit of fat, but certainly not as much as over the past 6 weeks! I'll stick to my bulletproof tea with beef dripping but I won't overdo it later in the day.

There is a discussion in the Ketogenic Diet thread about ketosis not being the ultimate solution for everyone. It was even mentioned that it can feed certain types of cancer.

Ketogenic diet is obviously indicated in quite a number of brain chemistry or brain health situations. It also seems to be very helpful with respect to cancer. But so far, we haven't seen much evidence of it being helpful with more general organic conditions. I think I'm going to change the title of this thread to reflect what we have learned.

Given that my main issue is brain fogs and fatigue, I thought it was a good solution for me. Both of these affect the brain. But I've never been a depressive type and I never had any neurological or mental issues. I guess I may classify as a "more general organic condition".

Anyway, I'll experiment a little and see how it goes. Thanks for the info in your post, it's really helpful.

 

[Ant22]

I use this site to look up Louise Hay's "underlying cause of illnesses": The Pagan's Path ~ The Healing Circle - Common Ailments & Their Underlying Metaphysical Causes

This page is interestingly accurate. Not only about myself but also some family members. Thanks for sharing Beau!

 

[Ant22]

I'm not sure if I'm in ketosis because I don't measure it and I don't really keep a count on how many carbs I eat nowadays. But my diet is basically meat and some veggies, that's all. I did add a few things lately like rice once in a while and I started trying more veggies like pumpkins, beetroots, carrots, onions and sauerkraut and it was OK at first, but then I noticed that if I start eating them on a regular basis, I start having some symptoms. So I went back to semi-carnivore, because I do eat cassava root and sweet potatoes from time to time, as well as rice crackers which are only rice, salt and water. These are all high on carbs, so I do eat carbs. I'm drinking water kefir as well. I have a bit of chocolate or a fruit occasionally (I like fruits a lot and they are abundant in my country so it's like a little treat from time to time ). I also drink coffee occasionally. This seems to work well for me so far.

Thank you Yas! This is more or less what my diet was like during the summer and I did feel great. The only difference is that I had gelatine capsules with lard with every meal. I'm sure I wasn't in ketosis though. But I didn't change what I ate much and yet I started to feel bad again.

I finished my 3.5 month NO rental in late July and shortly afterwards I started to feel very well. Correlation doesn't mean causation of course but my diet isn't very adventurous and I stick to the same things.

Oh how I wish I had a food diary back then! Maybe that would give me a clue.

I'll definitely give the carnivore diet a proper try and see if it helps.

Can I be a bit of a stalker and ask what veggies do not give you any symptoms? And what negative symptoms did you have before ?

Oh, no. I didn't mean to say that your issues are psychosomatic, or 100% caused by emotions. I'm sorry if that's what you understood. What I wanted to say is that, from what I've learnt so far, sometimes it's both things. There is a physical aspect to the illness, of course, but there's also an emotional connection to it that's worth exploring. But it's important to deal with the physical aspects of it first and foremost... those emotional connections might be a complementary approach to help the healing.

Oh, I didn't mean you suggested it, I did Truth is, I don't know what the underlying issue is, probably a lot of things really. So I did wonder to what extend my problems are psychosomatic. I think there definitely is a physical aspect to it so it's not all n my head: I don't have to know a meal had gluten in it or that salad dressing contained vegetable oil to be able to tell.

That's why I decided to take Foxx's suggestion on board and try Applied Kinesiology. I have an appointment tomorrow before work. Who knows? They may point out something I overlooked.

Haha, yes, it's hard to understand it. I don't think I learnt its language either. The book that was mentioned in other discussions was this and this, by Louise Hay. And there are also websites that list some of the illnesses. Then I usually do google searches on the topic and see what I can find too.

I agree with the others, Ant22, don't worry too much about being in ketosis if that's not working for you. Try to find what suits you best. But I'd say, give the carnivore diet or the elimination diet a try when you can and see how it goes.

Good luck in the journey!

Somehow it never occured to me to look for that info. The Connection survival style comes to mind. My body and mind seem to live separate lives.

Thank you for your reply Yas!

 

[Nienna]

My apologies, Ant, if this has already been mentioned; both 23andme and Foundmyfitness said that I cannot metabolize fat. Also, that I gain weight from it, which does not seem to be your case. They were right on both counts. I thought that if I just stayed with it long enough, I'd be able to start metabolizing fat - nope! It hasn't happened. So I've cut out almost all fat and things settled down a bit (digestive-wise).

Just something else to consider.

 

[Ant22]

My apologies, Ant, if this has already been mentioned; both 23andme and Foundmyfitness said that I cannot metabolize fat. Also, that I gain weight from it, which does not seem to be your case. They were right on both counts. I thought that if I just stayed with it long enough, I'd be able to start metabolizing fat - nope! It hasn't happened. So I've cut out almost all fat and things settled down a bit (digestive-wise).

Just something else to consider.

Hi Nienna, I did do the 23andMe health report but I didn't find any mention of fat metabolism. Would you mind sharing which gene or section of the report refers to it?

I had quite a bad day yesterday but today I feel much better. I cut out fat and introduced more meat and veggies. I visited an Applied Kinesiologist this morning and although I had a bit of a raised eyebrow attitude at the beginning, I'm totally sold on this method now. He told me to listen to what the body wants to eat, unless it's an obvious craving, like chocolate, which resonated with what I was told here on the forum. I really felt like having fish today so I had some baked cod and broccoli for lunch and so far the day has been pretty good. I'm still unnaturally sleepy but it's past the point where I'd refer to it as fatigue or a brain fog.
As a result of muscle testing, I was also told that there was an intense infestation of bacteria and fungi in my gut, very low thyroid, kidney and liver function so no wonder I was brain fogged. He said he tried some remedies but the one I responded to very strongly was a blend of probiotics. Let's see if they help. The appointment was only 30 minutes long so there was no time for further testing but he suggested letting the probiotics do some work before we continue. There's a chance that they'll fix things that we'd identify as problematic today. I was also told to do intermittent fasting and the practitioner was really happy to hear I've been doing it already.

My next appointment is when I get back from my holiday in January. In the meantime I'll read up about muscle testing and see how much I can figure out myself using this method.

All in all, I'm really grateful for the feedback I received here. It pushed me into a new direction I wouldn't have considered otherwise.

 

[Keyhole]

As a result of muscle testing, I was also told that there was an intense infestation of bacteria and fungi in my gut, very low thyroid, kidney and liver function so no wonder I was brain fogged. He said he tried some remedies but the one I responded to very strongly was a blend of probiotics. Let's see if they help. The appointment was only 30 minutes long so there was no time for further testing but he suggested letting the probiotics do some work before we continue. There's a chance that they'll fix things that we'd identify as problematic today. I was also told to do intermittent fasting and the practitioner was really happy to hear I've been doing it already.

Hi Ant, just to add in some thoughts - Although muscle testing may work in some cases, I would take that stuff with a pinch of salt. The efficacy depends on the practitioner, the practitioners' bias, and potentially your own bias also. I am not trying to discredit this system, but am saying that you should use it as a working hypothesis which should also be verified via other means - biomedical testing and personal experimentation.

For example, actually test your liver function - AST, ALP, ALT, GGT, Pyroglutamate, etc and kidneys - GFR, creatinine, etc
Test your thyroid - T3, T4, RT3, anti-TPO, anti-TG, TSH.
And if you have then money, test your digestion - fecal fats, undigested protein, pancreatic elastase, short-chain fatty acids, etc.

At least this will actually give you a starting point, instead of just guesswork.

 

[Ant22]

Hi Ant, just to add in some thoughts - Although muscle testing may work in some cases, I would take that stuff with a pinch of salt. The efficacy depends on the practitioner, the practitioners' bias, and potentially your own bias also. I am not trying to discredit this system, but am saying that you should use it as a working hypothesis which should also be verified via other means - biomedical testing and personal experimentation.

For example, actually test your liver function - AST, ALP, ALT, GGT, Pyroglutamate, etc and kidneys - GFR, creatinine, etc
Test your thyroid - T3, T4, RT3, anti-TPO, anti-TG, TSH.
And if you have then money, test your digestion - fecal fats, undigested protein, pancreatic elastase, short-chain fatty acids, etc.

At least this will actually give you a starting point, instead of just guesswork.

Hey Keyhole, I agree. In fact, I already booked a whole load of tests to do next week when I'm in Poland. It's cheaper to do it there. I specifically selected tests for the areas the practitioner mentioned as not functioning well.

 

[munaychasumaq]

Dear Ant and Dekard:

Apparently not every body can follow a Ketonic diet.According to Franz Suàrez a Metabolism pecialist due to his experience for over more of 20 years of therapy.He says that from 10 patients he treat 7 or 8 failed.Why? he says that first we need to figure it out what type of metabolism do we have:Passive Metabolism(passive nervous system,oriented to digestion and rest,great digestive capacity,sleeps well and deeply,digests well red meats and saturated fats that help you lose weight.) or Excited Metabolism (nervous system oriented to fight or run, delicate digestions, light sleep/insomnia, more vegetarian body and tolerate light protein such as chicken or fish or carbs)
So those with passive metabolism seems to tolerate much better the ketosis diet.
And also this diet is high recommend it for cancer treatment,weight loss and for special brain conditions.If we want to make the transition into a KD,we must to prepare our body first.How?It is important to accompany KD with digestive enzymes high in lipase and protease. A good hydration of the body. How do we calculate the amount of water? you divide the total body weight by 16 if it is in pounds and if it is in kilos you divide it by 7. For example a person of 50 kilos should drink 7 glasses of 8 oz. daily (50 : 7 = 7.1)
Following these steps we can avoid the Keto Flu.Which are:
Intense cravings
Reduced physical performance,
Digestive problems, constipation,
Insomnia,
Muscle weakness.
Fatigue.
Headaches.
Thyroid suppressed (stress affects the thyroid.)

Here some remarks from the C`s about Ketonic Diet.


"Since more than eight months ago I am in the hands of doctors who cannot detect what is my problem. Personally I think it may be something like inflammation in the bowel, such as Crohn's disease. Interestingly, these discomforts have started when I really started to follow a ketogenic diet, and as you have reported, can lead to changes in DNA... Therefore, I wonder if I experienced a DNA that has become a problem due to "the animal ancestor", which does not let me adapt to the diet? [Neanderthals suffered from psoriasis and Crohn's disease, says study | Daily Mail Online]
Could you ask to the C's for a simple diagnostic to do something about it?"

(L) Is there something that you can say to this individual?

A: For many, the transition in diet is either not possible due to epigenetic factors, or must be undertaken very, very slowly. For some, the requirements for carbohydrates is higher. They need to fulfill this need as safely as possible. In this case, the individual has intuited the relationship and should do some experimental adjustments adding root type vegetables and some greens and berries.

Q: (L) What you're saying, I think, is that for some people, transitioning to functioning on ketones is much more difficult for a variety of reasons?

A: Yes

Q: (L) So, the ketogenic diet is not ultimately desirable for everyone?

A: No

Q: (Galatea) But then that also leads to the question about how being on a ketogenic diet helps you evolve and raise your FRV, and make you super-smart and strong?

(Chu) The path to transformation and all that...

(L) Are you saying that the people who can't do the ketogenic diet that they...

(Galatea) They can't evolve, or they can do it another way?

A: It is helpful to evolving and FRV for those who require it. For some, it is required that they follow an adjacent plan. There is a great range of individual types. As you may have noticed, the ketogenic path is very difficult and a challenge even for the people it is right for. Some others have a bit more leeway and less struggle. And in answer to your next question, indeed there is something like karma involved.

Q: (L) So are you suggesting that those of us who need the ketogenic diet have karma to pay off? That we're being tortured? [laughter] We were gluttons in past lives or something?

A: Close enough! But aren't you glad that a path is available?(Session April 4,2015)

I hope it helps

 

[Kseniya]

Hello everyone!

This is my first time writing on this forum, although I have been reading it through an interpreter since the spring of this year. Be sure to separately write about yourself.

Since June, reading all you went on keto. At first I felt good enough, but in the autumn I felt very bad, very similar to what happened to Ant. I have increased liver, brain fog, constant diarrhea and more. At that moment, I continued to study your beautiful forum and read the topic mutation MTHFR. This topic is well written about the mutation of the CBS, which says that some people, even if there is no this mutation, there may be an overload of sulfates. Sulfates are essentially all keto: meat contains sulfates, broccoli, all from coconut, etc. I also read AMI Yasko, who writes, including about glutamate overload: broth, gelatin, beets. Her book has a list of exitotoxins. At the moment I have completely eliminated (tried) all of these products, and following Protocol for CBS. From Excitotoxicity helped me Supplement GABA, she removed diarrhea, liver congestion, phosphatidylcholine, in General, I took the whole Protocol for mutation CBS. Now I eat mostly vegetables, fruits, buckwheat, rice. As I understand it, it is temporary, and after a while, I can carefully add animal products, but without too much. I'm getting better, although it's hard to keep from all animal products, but it's temporary. We are all really different and a diet that fits one does not always fit the other. ANT, I wish you a speedy recovery! And I write through a translator, I hope that what I wrote will be clear. Thank you all for being there!

 

[Altair]

Hi Kseniya!

Since this is your first post on the forum, we would appreciate it if you would post a brief introduction about yourself in the Newbies section, telling us how you found this forum, how long you've been reading it and/or the SOTT page, whether or not you've read any of Laura's books yet, etc. You can read other's introductory posts there to get an idea.

And welcome to the forum!