The Case for Eating more Carbs in the Evening

[Keyhole]

Hello everyone!

This is my first time writing on this forum, although I have been reading it through an interpreter since the spring of this year. Be sure to separately write about yourself.

Since June, reading all you went on keto. At first I felt good enough, but in the autumn I felt very bad, very similar to what happened to Ant. I have increased liver, brain fog, constant diarrhea and more. At that moment, I continued to study your beautiful forum and read the topic mutation MTHFR. This topic is well written about the mutation of the CBS, which says that some people, even if there is no this mutation, there may be an overload of sulfates. Sulfates are essentially all keto: meat contains sulfates, broccoli, all from coconut, etc. I also read AMI Yasko, who writes, including about glutamate overload: broth, gelatin, beets. Her book has a list of exitotoxins. At the moment I have completely eliminated (tried) all of these products, and following Protocol for CBS. From Excitotoxicity helped me Supplement GABA, she removed diarrhea, liver congestion, phosphatidylcholine, in General, I took the whole Protocol for mutation CBS. Now I eat mostly vegetables, fruits, buckwheat, rice. As I understand it, it is temporary, and after a while, I can carefully add animal products, but without too much. I'm getting better, although it's hard to keep from all animal products, but it's temporary. We are all really different and a diet that fits one does not always fit the other. ANT, I wish you a speedy recovery! And I write through a translator, I hope that what I wrote will be clear. Thank you all for being there!

Hi Kseniya,

I hope the CBS protocol works for you. Although just to let you know, there are MANY people who's experience says that complete sulfur restriction long-term can actually make sulfur tolerance worse. You need sulfur to process sulfur! If you don't tolerate sulfur, you might want to check your plasma B6, and also your molybdenum. Aside from that, gut dysbiosis is another factor which can mess with our ability to metabolise sulfur. And aside from that, two major players are oxalate and thiamine.

FWIW, I have written a short series on sulfur metabolism which you can read if you are interested in the literature. The most recent one is with regard to oxalate, which is really common in sulfur problems and actually blocks sulfurs action in the body:

-Sulfate 1 - The Basics
-Sulfate 2 - Structured Water and The Living Matrix
-Sulfate 3 - Its All About Blood Flow: Why Sulfation is Prioritised
-Sulfate 4 - Chronic SIBO & Gut Dysbiosis as a Protective Adaptation To Supply Sulfate
-Sulfate 5 - An Introduction to Oxalate Toxicity & Gut Dysbiosis

 

[Kseniya]

Thank you very much, Keyhole. I did, thanks to you, some functional tests that showed a huge off-scale amount of glutamate, a fairly high amount of taurine, and a very low number of methyl groups, from which I concluded that my methylation cycle works at least not enough. Unfortunately, I don't know my genetic status. Still superimposed unsuccessful trip to the doctor, who suggested! no tests! adrenal fatigue and appointed me in fairly large doses of B5 and cortex, etc. I of course, initially, she was very trusted, took all the drugs, and in the process passed the tests, which showed a very large amount of cortisol and off-scale estrogen, plus a high D-dimer, and a drop in ferritin after the prescribed treatment. I was injected with glutathione, and abruptly became white ( fall showed ferritin tests). B6 I will pass, and molybdenum in the low normal range (I accept it now). The urea cycle is normal, I understand. The only thing I do not understand how to lower estrogen, it is more than normal twice. Maybe you, or someone else knows how to reduce it? I'll study everything you sent. Thank you again!

 

[Ant22]

Dear Ant and Dekard:
(...)

Here some remarks from the C`s about Ketonic Diet.

"Since more than eight months ago I am in the hands of doctors who cannot detect what is my problem. Personally I think it may be something like inflammation in the bowel, such as Crohn's disease. Interestingly, these discomforts have started when I really started to follow a ketogenic diet, and as you have reported, can lead to changes in DNA... Therefore, I wonder if I experienced a DNA that has become a problem due to "the animal ancestor", which does not let me adapt to the diet? [Neanderthals suffered from psoriasis and Crohn's disease, says study | Daily Mail Online]
Could you ask to the C's for a simple diagnostic to do something about it?"

(L) Is there something that you can say to this individual?

A: For many, the transition in diet is either not possible due to epigenetic factors, or must be undertaken very, very slowly. For some, the requirements for carbohydrates is higher. They need to fulfill this need as safely as possible. In this case, the individual has intuited the relationship and should do some experimental adjustments adding root type vegetables and some greens and berries.

Q: (L) What you're saying, I think, is that for some people, transitioning to functioning on ketones is much more difficult for a variety of reasons?

A: Yes

Q: (L) So, the ketogenic diet is not ultimately desirable for everyone?

A: No

Q: (Galatea) But then that also leads to the question about how being on a ketogenic diet helps you evolve and raise your FRV, and make you super-smart and strong?

(Chu) The path to transformation and all that...

(L) Are you saying that the people who can't do the ketogenic diet that they...

(Galatea) They can't evolve, or they can do it another way?

A: It is helpful to evolving and FRV for those who require it. For some, it is required that they follow an adjacent plan. There is a great range of individual types. As you may have noticed, the ketogenic path is very difficult and a challenge even for the people it is right for. Some others have a bit more leeway and less struggle. And in answer to your next question, indeed there is something like karma involved.

Q: (L) So are you suggesting that those of us who need the ketogenic diet have karma to pay off? That we're being tortured? [laughter] We were gluttons in past lives or something?

A: Close enough! But aren't you glad that a path is available?(Session April 4,2015)

I hope it helps

My oh my...in my infinite wisdom and attention to detail of a goldfish I completely forgot about this session.

Thank you for sharing munaychasumaq, it certainly does help.

This wasn't my first go at the ketogenic diet but during my previous attempts I didn't have that much fat. I thought that this was why it didn't work for me. Well, obviously not.

But I did notice something strange: after every (failed) attempt to transition to the ketogenic diet I did feel better when I gave up and returned to my normal way of eating. So whatever this diet does, it seems to restart the system for me.

This is exactly what happened this time. I mostly eat what I ate before my health hit a brick wall again - and I feel quite well. I added more meat and fish and apart from veggies and some fruit, I reduced sugar to a tiny minimum, so hopefully it will allow me to keep my energy levels up.

Also, despite the fact that I felt unwell on keto, what kept me going was the fact that although fatigue persisted, the brain fog did lift a little bit. Which is why kept pushing on thinking the diet was in fact right for me and that my health
would continue to improve from there.

Despite the overall failure of the keto diet as a lifestyle, I guess it's good to know that there is a way to put the system back on track, even if it's very unpalatable.

I'll stick to my current diet for now as Im going away to visit my family for Christmas. I'd prefer to avoid any detox or transition symptoms while I'm there. But next time my health goes pear shaped, I will try to see if the carnivore diet helps. Keto is a bit of an overkill.
I'm beginning to suspect that maybe it's not the amount of fat but the amount of meat in my diet that does the trick.

 

[Ant22]

Hello everyone!

This is my first time writing on this forum, although I have been reading it through an interpreter since the spring of this year. Be sure to separately write about yourself.

Since June, reading all you went on keto. At first I felt good enough, but in the autumn I felt very bad, very similar to what happened to Ant. I have increased liver, brain fog, constant diarrhea and more. At that moment, I continued to study your beautiful forum and read the topic mutation MTHFR. This topic is well written about the mutation of the CBS, which says that some people, even if there is no this mutation, there may be an overload of sulfates. Sulfates are essentially all keto: meat contains sulfates, broccoli, all from coconut, etc. I also read AMI Yasko, who writes, including about glutamate overload: broth, gelatin, beets. Her book has a list of exitotoxins. At the moment I have completely eliminated (tried) all of these products, and following Protocol for CBS. From Excitotoxicity helped me Supplement GABA, she removed diarrhea, liver congestion, phosphatidylcholine, in General, I took the whole Protocol for mutation CBS. Now I eat mostly vegetables, fruits, buckwheat, rice. As I understand it, it is temporary, and after a while, I can carefully add animal products, but without too much. I'm getting better, although it's hard to keep from all animal products, but it's temporary. We are all really different and a diet that fits one does not always fit the other. ANT, I wish you a speedy recovery! And I write through a translator, I hope that what I wrote will be clear. Thank you all for being there!

Hello Kseniya, welcome to the forum and thank you for sharing your experience!

Well, as munaychasumaq pointed out in their reply to me above, the keto diet isn't for everyone - and it may not be for us. I was wondering what specific health issues you wanted to address by going keto?

I too tried the sulphur reducing protocol before, as discussed in this thread: Is chronic IBS/SIBO/gut dysbiosis a protective adaptation in the context of functional sulfate deficiency?

I don't think it resolved many problems for me but some did improve. I was on this protocol for 2 weeks and my digestion seemed a bit better during that time. However, my first breakfast after the protocol was over consisted on bacon and eggs - and it gave me a massive stomach cramp. I had to introduce meat and other products very slowly and it took me another week to be able to fully tolerate them. I guess this may be evidence that, as Keyhole said above, you need sulphur to be able to process sulphur.

I hope re-introducing meat and animal products won't be as hard for you as it was for me after those two weeks. But if it is, it may not be a sign that you have a problem with meat, but that your body's ability to process it has been compromised.

One thing I've been doing ever since I tried that protocol in April is Epsom Salts bath a couple of times a week. It seems to help the quality of my sleep and apparently it does improve your body's ability to deal with sulphur.

Thank you very much, Keyhole. I did, thanks to you, some functional tests that showed a huge off-scale amount of glutamate, a fairly high amount of taurine, and a very low number of methyl groups, from which I concluded that my methylation cycle works at least not enough. Unfortunately, I don't know my genetic status. Still superimposed unsuccessful trip to the doctor, who suggested! no tests! adrenal fatigue and appointed me in fairly large doses of B5 and cortex, etc. I of course, initially, she was very trusted, took all the drugs, and in the process passed the tests, which showed a very large amount of cortisol and off-scale estrogen, plus a high D-dimer, and a drop in ferritin after the prescribed treatment. I was injected with glutathione, and abruptly became white ( fall showed ferritin tests). B6 I will pass, and molybdenum in the low normal range (I accept it now). The urea cycle is normal, I understand. The only thing I do not understand how to lower estrogen, it is more than normal twice. Maybe you, or someone else knows how to reduce it? I'll study everything you sent. Thank you again!

I have no medical training so I cannot knowledgeably comment on the majority of your post, but I have a couple of tips on oestrogen dominance. I have battled high oestrogen for a while and here are two things that have helped me:

1. Vitamin A supplementation. Keyhole suggested it here.

2. Supplementing DIM (Diindolylmethane) Some info: Diindolylmethane Benefits
I also mentioned it in this post before: Is chronic IBS/SIBO/gut dysbiosis a protective adaptation in the context of functional sulfate deficiency?

I'm sorry if I shared links to posts you have read before, you did say you have been reading through the forum for a while now.

 

[Ant22]

The only thing I do not understand how to lower estrogen, it is more than normal twice. Maybe you, or someone else knows how to reduce it? I'll study everything you sent.

Oh, I should have added this post by Laura too:

Well, I read a book some months ago about balancing hormones and the recommendation is to eat a pound (2 cups) of cruciferous/sulfur veggies a day (cooked). So, I started doing that. And it sure has made a positive difference for me. I vary between broccoli, cauliflower, cabbage, and brussel sprouts all prepared in different ways. What I like best is a mix of broccoli and cauliflower pureed with lots of butter and a bit of garlic; it's better than mashed potatoes! The positive effect on my intestines, after an initial period of adjustment, has been nothing short of phenomenal.

I have been doing this as well, although not daily. Given that during my failed keto adventure I actually craved broccoli and cauliflower, my body seems to be telling me it's good for me.

 

[Martina]

Hey Keyhole, I agree. In fact, I already booked a whole load of tests to do next week when I'm in Poland. It's cheaper to do it there. I specifically selected tests for the areas the practitioner mentioned as not functioning well.

I just hope you won't spend your holidays waiting in hospital and doing tests. Maybe you just miss homemade polish food. If I got it from the cooking shows, you Poles like sweet foods. My sister buys food in polish stores in Ireland because it's tastier than Irish

 

[Martina]

I was an athlete when younger. What my coaches told me is that I have- I don't know how to say it in english- explosive muscle power- something like that, that's why I can run really fast. I kind of need the real fuel, because I'm in the movement the whole day. I don't feel hunger when I'm hungry, not even the fog, I sort of feel the pressure in my forehead, like I'm tired, but still sharp and then I eat. I eat eggs for breakfast baked on lard, sometimes I drink a sip of olive oil, or eat some butter and bacon. I eat meat for lunch mostly, and I eat veggies only in soup. I eat some crap here and there because I'm no saint but generally I'm ok, maybe more proteins to build muscles. Iodine helped me a lot, and I take some vitamins here and there

 

[Yas]

Can I be a bit of a stalker and ask what veggies do not give you any symptoms? And what negative symptoms did you have before ?

I'm sorry for the late reply, Ant22. So far, I think I can tolerate sweet potatoes, cassava root and maybe beetroot too. That's pretty much it. I can eat other things once or twice in a row without feeling bad, so it's not that terrible actually; the problem starts when I start eating other stuff regularly, after a few days (or more, depending on what it is) I start getting symptoms... and these are normally very mild nowadays. Before, I had a skin disease which is discussed here and lots of bowel issues. But well... fortunately, it's been two years already in which I haven't had any major health issues an I think my problems weren't as bad as some other cases here and elsewhere either. That's definitely a blessing!

Anyways, in this we are all different so with the food diary you might find that's it's totally different for you. Sometimes, it can be really hard to isolate the real culprits, which reminded me of this thread: Food Allergy Blood Tests and results

I don't know if you've seen it already, but if you can, you might want to do a test to see what isn't very good for you so you at least know what you have to avoid for sure and the stuff you can have once in a while too.

 

[Laura]

I ran my genome through this FoundMyFitness Genetics - Genome Analysis Tool (costs only 10 bux) and there was a gene variant that came up about ghrelin. The suggestion was to eat protein/slow carbs/fiber in the mornings, and no or lower carbs in the evening. So, I tried that and it worked really well. We get a kind of gluten free bread that is high in fiber and I have a bacon sandwich in the morning and I'm satisfied completely until my second/last meal in the afternoon which I try to make some kind of meat or fish and a veggie.

So, I guess it all depends on your genotype and that can be pretty specific in some cases.

 

[Chu]

The only thing I do not understand how to lower estrogen, it is more than normal twice. Maybe you, or someone else knows how to reduce it? I'll study everything you sent. Thank you again!

Apart from what others have said, there is this:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10153885608761115

I hope you can understand videos in English. Basically, it's best to avoid all cans and plastic containers. See here too:

BPA-Free Plastics Still Leach Chemicals |

Those chemicals (and bisphenol-A is one of the most common ones) can really mess up with your hormones. So, the fresher your food (from local producers, market, etc.) the better!

 

[Laura]

Main thing to lower estrogen is to eat about a pound (half kilo) of cruciferous veggies every day and cut out beef.

 

[3DStudent]

Just an FYI I've been doing the carnivore diet (not militantly) for around a month, initially I was trying to eat lots of fat similar to a keto diet and I just could not tolerate it, even with ox bile and ACV. Over the last week, I have cut all the extra fat such as; butter, drowning my meat in liquid fat from the pan and I'm basically just eating the meat (if it has fat on it fine, if not then I don't add it).
I have noticed a SIGNIFICANT improvement in digestive function. I still have coconut oil coffee in the morning after breakfast, but now I have just a teaspoon or less of oil rather than a tablespoon! Without being too graphic I was going to the toilet 3-4 times in the morning and it was very loose. Now it is once in the morning and a normal consistency.

I know we are all individual and have different tolerances, but if I ate your diet diary I would probably have diarrhea too!! Are you having the eggwhite? And also, what is in the oatmeal? Have you tried cutting down on the fat and upping the protein?

Something you may find helpful is functional testing to investigate what is going on in your gut/ metabolism etc. For me personally, it indicated some pretty significant things, so it may be worth exploring osit. Hang in there Ant

I would agree. Too much fat and it doesn't seem like you're getting much protein. And it's not necessary to go chasing a certain ketone level by over eating fat. Technically, you can be in ketosis without eating any fat at all as long as your carb intake is low enough. I wouldn't worry to much about ketosis if you feel crappy while in it.

I'd agree with this also. The good thing about the carnivore diet is there's no counting anything - ketones, calories, protein or fat. You just eat meat and salt (I would say go heavy on the salt, particularly during transition. Add a pinch to your water whenever you drink. It really helps with transition symptoms). No restricting protein to try to get ketone levels up, no peeing on sticks, no eating more fat than seems natural. I've been reading "Fat of the Land" by Vilhjalmur Stefansson who was an arctic explorer in the early 1900s. His recounting of the way people ate is pretty amazing - just fatty muscle meat, not even the organs (they gave them to the dogs, except for some situations where they'd feed the kidneys to children). They obviously weren't concerned with whether or not they were in ketosis. They just ate what they ate and felt good about it.

It makes a lot more sense to me than creating a non-intuitive eating regime by striking a precarious balance between macronutrients. I think a ketogenic diet is great as a therapeutic diet, particularly for certain conditions that benefit from raised ketone levels (epilepsy, dementia, cancer), but for others, the carnivore diet seems to make more sense. Carnivore dieters are no doubt in ketosis sometimes, maybe even most of the time, but it's not an issue.

But if you're not into the idea of doing just meat, maybe keep your diet just a meat-heavier version of what you're doing for the time being. Don't pack in tons of extra fat, but just eat as fatty as you feel comfortable with.

Thanks for sharing your experience Ant, and commenters on the Carnivore diet. I think I didn't understand how simple the Carnivore Diet was, and kind of just skipped over it. But it really seems simple, and I like simple. I was kind of wondering what the forum is eating these days, and I just stuck to what I knew: keto. But I realize that there are individual differences.

I have upped my carbs, eating some organic coconut butter cups, and organic ice cream. I can go up to around 40g of carbs. But if I do a few days of 50 or 60g, I will transition out of ketosis. And I become incapable of even simple cognitive tasks as my brain doesn't know which fuel to use, so not good.

I kind of also developed the opposite of fat fear, so I'm afraid to let fat go as the primary energy source. It's like, if you eat mostly protein, what metabolism is your body using? It would seem strange not putting twice as many grams of fat as protein in my food. But again, simple and no macronutrient counting would be nice. I'd need to test how much protein I need in a meal and then just eyeball it from there.

So I think I'll try it out once my carbs are eaten up. Then I'll just have tea and seasonings as the sources of carbs. So I think when I don't have some 'healthy treats', I'm pretty close to being carnivore anyways. I just got to let go of the fat!

 

[dugdeep]

I'd need to test how much protein I need in a meal and then just eyeball it from there.

The point of carnivore is that you don't need to test anything - just eat meat until you're full

 

[beetlemaniac]

I kind of also developed the opposite of fat fear, so I'm afraid to let fat go as the primary energy source. It's like, if you eat mostly protein, what metabolism is your body using? It would seem strange not putting twice as many grams of fat as protein in my food. But again, simple and no macronutrient counting would be nice. I'd need to test how much protein I need in a meal and then just eyeball it from there.

Hi 3DStudent,

With regard to the dependency on fat as fuel, I was just wondering whether you have transitioned from that, or whether, especially at a cognitive level, you still have a need for fat? I am also still heavily eating fat (butter) with my food. I've noticed just having a plain steak once in a while feels very fulfilling (though I usually have butter with it too, anyway). I do also have a fear of losing cognitive ability and a certain feeling in my body telling me that what I'm eating is right for me.

Small amounts of carbs in the form of onions seem okay, I've eaten veggies too and those are fine with me as well. I've eaten gluten-free type treats with grains without any problems either and intermittent fasting schedule eating is probably the best way to go.

 

[3DStudent]

With regard to the dependency on fat as fuel, I was just wondering whether you have transitioned from that, or whether, especially at a cognitive level, you still have a need for fat?

I have not transitioned and still am keto, with twice the fat as carbs and protein, roughly. I did the same thing last Thanksgivng, Christmas, and New Year where I bought some coconut based carb treats. That resulted in some weight gain with the additional calories. I had a plan to lose the weight in the same amount of months. But the working from home has resulted in a significant calorie expenditure deficit, so it's taking longer to lose the weight.