The Endless Mystery of Existence Itself

[msasa79]

It seems that the state of absolute Oneness is 7D, which implies that even 6D is not in a state of absolute Oneness and that there may be something like time in 6D. The C's comments about them also still learning in 6D seem to imply this too (learning requires a before and after, or some kind of "time").

Well, not necessarily the linear concept of time as implied by "learning requires a before and after", that we're used/programmed to perceive. The C's have said that the 'real measure' of time is actually the "expanded present" which indicates that everything happens now, and that time as such is "selective and variable", which implies that an individual or a group might choose which natural cycles they'll be 'subjugated' to for their learning purposes. Short-wave and long-wave cycles as an example come to mind in that respect. FWIW.

 

[axj]

We don't really know the definition of the "expanded present", I think - the C's only said that it is "the real measure of time". A measure of time implies the existence of some kind of time in the "expanded present".

One difficulty seems to be that our time is more or less illusory in relation to the eternal now, but that eternal now ("expanded present") also seems to have change or a "before and after", which implies the existence of something similar to time there.

Maybe the eternal now is "more eternal" in 7D than it is in 6D, if that makes sense.

 

[bozadi]

I can’t truly or effectively understand timelessness. I just try to imagine it based on what is told in the sources. Also, I don’t exactly know what is meant by “expanded present” as “the real measure of time”. Maybe it’s something we already know, at least to some extent, and I hope that we can clarify it.

A possibility is about the relationship between 7D and all other densities. Linearly thinking, there are “seven individual densities”. But the sources (the Ra-Cassiopaean cosmology) who tell us about these seven densities also tell that “all densities are 7D”. It’s as if “there’s a single density” (7D), and all other densities are different forms or stages of the single density. Like “the snake which eats its tail”. You know, “the search which ends where it started.” The seven densities is a travel of the “self” in/around itself, spinning or whirling.

When I first thought about the “expanded present”, I assumed that it isn’t fixed but ever expanding, like physically or volumetrically. But, then, I can’t help but conclude, rightly or wrongly, that expansion implies there was a beginning, and so there must be an end, which doesn’t seem to agree with “timelessness”. My current understanding of a possibly “fixed expansion” is closely related to the Sun symbol, which might also be the symbol of entire existence or being:

Doesn’t it also look like a spinning dancer as viewed from top?

​

The dot in the middle is nondual, absolute being, 7D. The dot is 1, all, infinity. But, I think, from the perspective of duality/illusion/creation, we need to draw a circle around it, which is the “bigger dot”, or the “expanded dot”, the “expanded 1”, the “expanded now”. The space/time between the inner dot and the external circle is probably the field of creation, information, illusion, show.

Maybe we can make some inferences about time using this symbol?

 

[bozadi]

Sure, I agree that the C's learn in 6D to advance towards 7D. But, kind of unbelievably, all of this learning seems to end up in being "simultaneous". We don't need to understand this while we're in 3D STS, but it still seems to be the case. When looked from within duality, time exists in an absolute sense, but it doesn't from the perspective of nonduality.

The C's say "We are you in the future" but they also say:

A: What is "future," anyway?

Q: (L) The future is simultaneous events, just different locales in space/time, just a different focus of consciousness, is that correct?

A: Yea, so if that is true, why try to apply linear thinking here, you see, we are merging with you right now!

Time is kind of valid for us but we can also imagine that past, present, and future are illusory projections from a single point of reality. I think time is real only "in illusion". As STS beings, we tend to identify ourselves with the illusion excessively (this might be taken as an illness), and this makes "time" very real in our minds.

 

[axj]

When looked from within duality, time exists in an absolute sense, but it doesn't from the perspective of nonduality.

Absolute nonduality probably exists only in 7D and even there there may be some type of "before and after" to decide on what the new iteration of the "Big Bang" will look like.

Since the C's implied that existence does have a purpose, this implies change on the most fundamental level of existence. And change is only possible with something similar to time.

The alternative is that literally everything exists "statically" in the eternal now, without any change on the most fundamental level and seemingly without any possibility of a purpose.

If you really look at it, absolute nonduality would be static and quite pointless as there would be no change or purpose whatsoever.

 

[bozadi]

Absolute nonduality probably exists only in 7D

You know, the C's say that beginning with 5D, there's no duality (and no time).

A: There is no time on 5th density. All event sequences happen eternally and for an instant only at once.

Q: (L) How does that relate to the question?

A: Because you asked if he was at peace, and if he was “adjusting.” Do you not see that by the “time” you realize someone is “dead,” they have already, in essence, experienced their entire 5th density incarnation recycling, learning and contemplative experience in “zero time?!”

Obviously, it's not easy for us to understand this, but the C's emphatically insist that "time doesn't exist".

Q: (L) Well, when you have a pulse, you have a wave, and if you have a wave, that implies time.

A: Therein lies the crux of your 3rd density illusion. Why assume that any given aspect of the pulse is not occurring simultaneously with any other. And if any are, all are. Until you once and for all break free from the illusion of time, you will not advance.

A: If there's no end and no beginning, then what do you have?

Q: (L) No point. (J) The here and now.

A: The here and now which is also the future and the past. Everything that was, is and will be, all at once. This is why only a very few of your third density persons have been able to understand space travel, because even though traveling into space in your third density is every bit as third density as lying on your bed at night in your comfortable home, the time reference is taken away. Something that you hold very close to your bosom as if it were your mother. And, it is the biggest illusion that you have. We have repeatedly told you over and over that there is no time, and yet, of course, you have been so brainwashed into this concept that you cannot get rid of it no matter what you do, now can you?

I know that the C's said "There is no time as you know it" but I think this is not mutually exclusive with the statement "Time doesn't exist". Time is somehow balanced by something that may be called "anti-time", and, as the C's say, the result is "zero time":

Q: (RS) Is it true that the universe has equal amounts of matter and anti-matter as seen from level three?

A: Yes, all others as well.

Q: (RS) Then it is true that the total time in the universe is null?

A: Yes.

 

[bozadi]

I know that "learning", "movement", "experience" etc. imply "time" but apparently all of these are "illusion", and, as the C's insist, all of them actually occur at once, simultaneously. You seem to resist thinking over this "simultaneity" issue? I can't fathom it either, but I try to "give it a chance".

Since the C's implied that existence does have a purpose,

I think this can be a "yes and no" situation. What is the purpose the C's mentioned for existence, can you please remind it for me?

And change is only possible with something similar to time.

Again, only in "illusion". Maybe we'd better try discussing what illusion is and isn't. I don't fathom it but I'm eager to try questioning, understanding.

I think the fundamentals are "stationary" but there's also so much change. There's a balance between.

 

[Palinurus]

I think the fundamentals are "stationary" but there's also so much change. There's a balance between.

It's called a dynamic equilibrium AFAIK. The equilibrium part guarantees the possibility of balance and the dynamic part makes developments possible, i.e. progression and digression etc.

 

[axj]

Obviously, it's not easy for us to understand this, but the C's emphatically insist that "time doesn't exist".

That is not what we are talking about though. We all agree that time as we know it doesn't exist. The question is whether the eternal now or "expanded present" has something similar to time for change to happen there.

The C's talked about the expanded present being the real measure of time, implying that there may be something like "a real time" beyond our illusory time. They mentioned that they are still learning in 6D and there are also many indications that 5D has change, despite being being completely beyond our illusory time. Change seems to require a "before and after" or something similar to time and it may be very different to what we know as time.

What is the purpose the C's mentioned for existence, can you please remind it for me?

The C's said that the purpose of existence cannot be understood from our current level, which implies that there is a purpose.

You seem to resist thinking over this "simultaneity" issue? I can't fathom it either, but I try to "give it a chance".

Well, to me it seems that you are quite attached to the total nonduality idea - you did not even address that absolute nonduality implies static existence without any change or purpose.

 

[bozadi]

Well, to me it seems that you are quite attached to the total nonduality idea

Yes, I hope I really am, because, to me it represents waking up from the dream/nightmare.

you did not even address that absolute nonduality implies static existence without any change or purpose.

Drawing on Maharaj, I believe that absolute nonduality is pure awareness which doesn't need any change or purpose. Change and purpose imply duality.

 

[axj]

Drawing on Maharaj, I believe that absolute nonduality is pure awareness which doesn't need any change or purpose. Change and purpose imply duality.

Well, I hope you keep an open mind and consider other possibilities too. Why even be attached to the idea or belief in a pointless existence? Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. The C's seem to imply that existence has a purpose:

November 13, 1999

Q: It would seem as though we are caught in an endless loop, which is ultimately futile.

A: It would seem that way if one is transposing 3rd density linear thought from a physicalized standpoint upon that which is infinitely more complex.

Q: On the other hand, if there is free will then, as time does not exist, we should not even be here as all would have happened in an instant as everything progressed to 7th density in a single moment of thought!

A: See previous answer.

Q: The reason I have gone into these lines of thought are that I want to understand a bit of the BIG picture. Understanding motives goes a long way to understanding our world/reality. I would like to try to understand our motives for being here. So, he wants the big picture: why are we here? Why does ANYTHING exist?

A: This cannot be understood from your perspective. But no need. Patience, please. Lessons are learned sequentially. And, of course we can make errors. After all, we are still learning too, Ken!

 

[msasa79]

Well, again, not necessarily that change requires time to manifest; technically speaking there are spatial changes that are 'completely out of time', basically the whole field of electrostatics does not involve time per se in its descriptions. From our limited PoV, (linear) time emerges from movement and motion, being a rotation or 'actual' change of material location, but that can be contrasted by 'going somewhere in the mind' which can be done in no time depending only on the capabilities of the 'traveling mind'.

Yes, there are cycles, and cycles within the cycles, as the C's would say, which might be considered as 'times', like for example the Grand Cycle associated with the Wave, and the choice to 'participate' in some of them (except maybe in the Grand Cycle as such which seems to be an integral part of the very existence itself) seems to be one of the possible meanings to the C's saying that the time is "selective and variable".

According to the C's, duality is an intrinsic property of the short-wave cycles, implying that long-wave cycles do not necessarily involve that characteristic as a part of their manifestations. A possible illustration that non-duality does not preclude change and progress might be an ocean or a sea, which in its totality would be sort of a non-dual, homogenous medium which seems to be the same all the time as it is now, but locally, on a smaller scale there are differences, both of spatial and temporal characters, and things in it change, in a sense evolving and/or devolving depending on their 'chosen path' towards the surface or the bottom of the seemingly endless unlimited medium around them.

Well, just sharing some thoughts about the subject in question as seen at this point on the learning spiral; Ibn al' Arabi in Chittick's The Sufi Path of Knowledge is waaay better in elucidating on the Oneness of the Being (in a sense non-duality) and multiplicity of the existent things in the cosmos as Divine Names' properties and attributes manifestation loci, with all their polarities and opposites.

 

[bozadi]

The C's seem to imply that existence has a purpose:

I guess it's "yes and no". Our current sense of "purpose" is inevitably contaminated by ego (fear and desire) to some extent.

 

[axj]

I guess it's "yes and no".

I'll go with "infinitely more complex".

 

[bozadi]

Well, again, not necessarily that change requires time to manifest; technically speaking there are spatial changes that are 'completely out of time', basically the whole field of electrostatics does not involve time per se in its descriptions.

Wow, I didn't know about it. Some aspects of quantum science seems to be so close to the exploration of the spirit! :)

According to the C's, duality is an intrinsic property of the short-wave cycles, implying that long-wave cycles do not necessarily involve that characteristic as a part of their manifestations.

Yes. I think long wave cycle means "STO" all the way through, and I take the C's expression "in union with the One" as regards our pre-fall state to be synonymous with STO, although it can also be involving a different or deeper meaning. So, I currently suppose STO means being "in union with the One", which seems to be a kind of nondual awareness.

A possible illustration that non-duality does not preclude change and progress might be an ocean or a sea, which in its totality would be sort of a non-dual, homogenous medium which seems to be the same all the time as it is now, but locally, on a smaller scale there are differences, both of spatial and temporal characters, and things in it change, in a sense evolving and/or devolving depending on their 'chosen path' towards the surface or the bottom of the seemingly endless unlimited medium around them.

Maharaj uses the "ocean" metaphor frequently:

I saw that in the ocean of pure awareness, on the surface of the universal consciousness, the numberless waves of the phenomenal worlds arise and subside beginninglessly and endlessly.

...

Just as the taste of salt pervades the great ocean and every single drop of sea-water carries the same flavour, so every experience gives me the touch of reality, the ever fresh realisation of my own being.

...

There is only reality, in which no ‘thing' has any being on its own. Like waves are inseparable from the ocean, so is all existence rooted in being.

...

The Supreme Reality manifests itself in innumerable ways. Infinite in number are its names and shapes. All arise, all merge in the same ocean, the source of all is one.

...

Q: How is it that in spite of so much instruction and assistance we make no progress?

M: As long as we imagine ourselves to be separate personalities, one quite apart from another, we cannot grasp reality which is essentially impersonal. First we must know ourselves as witnesses only, dimensionless and timeless centres of observation, and then realise that immense ocean of pure awareness, which is both mind and matter and beyond both.

...

Our minds are just waves on the ocean of consciousness. As waves they come and go. As ocean they are infinite and eternal. Know yourself as the ocean of being, the womb of all existence. These are all metaphors of course; the reality is beyond description. You can know it only by being it.

...

Q: What happens to that spark of life after death?

M: It is beyond time. Birth and death are but points in time. Life weaves eternally its many webs. The weaving is in time, but life itself is timeless. Whatever name and shape you give to its expressions, it is like the ocean -- never changing, ever changing.

...

As all waves are in the ocean, so are all things physical and mental in awareness. Hence awareness itself is all important, not the content of it. Deepen and broaden your awareness of yourself and all the blessings will flow. You need not seek anything, all will come to you most naturally and effortlessly.

...

Q: I am a person and therefore limited in space and time. I occupy little space and last but a few moments; I cannot even conceive myself to be eternal and all-pervading.

M: Nevertheless you are. As you dive deep into yourself in search of your true nature, you will discover that only your body is small and only your memory is short; while the vast ocean of life is yours.

...

Q: How can I aspire to such heights, small and limited as I am?

M: Realise yourself as the ocean of consciousness in which all happens. This is not difficult. A little of attentiveness, of close observation of oneself, and you will see that no event is outside your consciousness.

...

Just as every wave subsides into the ocean, so does every moment return to its source. Realisation consists in discovering the source and abiding there.

...

Just as every drop of the ocean carries the taste of the ocean, so does every moment carry the taste of eternity. Definitions and descriptions have their place as useful incentives for further search, but you must go beyond them into what is undefinable and indescribable, except in negative terms.

...

Questioner: You keep on saying that I was never born and will never die. If so, how is it that I see the world as one which has been born and will surely die?

Maharaj: You believe so because you have never questioned your belief that you are the body which, obviously, is born and dies. While alive, it attracts attention and fascinates so completely that rarely does one perceive one's real nature. It is like seeing the surface of the ocean and completely forgetting the immensity beneath. The world is but the surface of the mind and the mind is infinite. What we call thoughts are just ripples in the mind. When the mind is quiet it reflects reality. When it is motionless through and through, it dissolves and only reality remains. This reality is so concrete, so actual, so much more tangible than mind and matter, that compared to it even diamond is soft like butter. This overwhelming actuality makes the world dreamlike, misty, irrelevant.

Well, just sharing some thoughts about the subject in question as seen at this point on the learning spiral; Ibn al' Arabi in Chittick's The Sufi Path of Knowledge is waaay better in elucidating on the Oneness of the Being (in a sense non-duality) and multiplicity of the existent things in the cosmos as Divine Names' properties and attributes manifestation loci, with all their polarities and opposites.

A few years ago, I had tried to read it but I think my mind was not ready for it. After familiarizing with Maharaj's teaching of advaita, I need to try again. I suppose there are important parallels between them.