The Games Narcissist Play

Purplehaze said:
In other words, he didn't get mad because dinner was was late. She didn't blow up because you are "too this" or "too that." You didn't "ask for it" by speaking up and saying that you deserved some attention and respect.

The narcissist attacked you just because you are there, period. Don't you have a right to be there?

Let's get real. Narcissists think they have a right to punish you just for being the way you are. Think, don't you have the right to be the way you are? Do you have to be some character in the narcissist's fiction that conforms to his or her specifications?

Does that make any sense? That's as hateful as the crime against humanity of attacking people just for being a certain KIND or nationality.

The narcissist attacks because he or she is a predator, period. Predators attack any vulnerable prey that crosses their sights, period. Therefore, the prey is NEVER the one bit to blame.

It would make as much sense to blame a sheep for getting attacked by a wolf. So what if the wolf says, "I attacked her because she is an obnoxious sheep!" What idiot falls for that line? Yet narcissist sympathizers are doing precisely this and are therefore being irrational.
Those tactics are highly effective with most people who have this deep belief that when there's a problem they are part of its causes. So we tend to apply wrongly the principle "change yourself instead of trying to change the world".

Indeed we should change ourselves, not by conforming to the narcissists diktats but by getting aware of what a narcissist really is.

This wolf and sheep analogy reminded me of this tale written by La Fontaine. Obviously, 4 centuries ago, narcissim was already part of the game.
 
Axel_Dunor said:
<snip>...Those tactics are highly effective with most people who have this deep belief that when there's a problem they are part of its causes. So we tend to apply wrongly the principle "change yourself instead of trying to change the world".
Narcissists use "those tactics" on young children who are just forming their belief systems and have no other point of reference. The narcissist's (parent/caretaker's) point of view becomes the child's belief, in spite of any feelings to the contrary. When the child grows up, this belief system is still there, deeply rooted and hidden from self examination. Now the adult is vulnerable to "those tactics," but...
Axel_Dunor said:
Indeed we should change ourselves, not by conforming to the narcissists diktats but by getting aware of what a narcissist really is...
"I should" thinking doesn't go anywhere. It might as well be "I'm not going to." I would say that "being aware" of what a narcissist might be interesting, but I haven't found it to be enough to bring about a change. I am somewhere in the midst of working through overt narcissistic family issues myself, and it is hard to describe what is happening. "A series of shocks and rude awakenings" would barely begin to describe it.

I have known much about what happened--what my parents did and what I did--for many years. I have known about many things I do that come out of those experiences. I have had lots of therapy, and things explained to me over and over again. None of that knowledge was enough. Maybe it is because I was an only child and there are no other living witnesses; maybe it is because I couldn't remember enough. But before I could change, I had to take all of those memories and connect them, forming a picture of everything.

Now, as I begin to make changes (again--I did make some progress in the past), I have friends and other people I know that are in similar circumstances, and I can see how hard it is to change, and I don't want to make light of the difficulty. If I have learned anything, I have learned that I must let them wage their own struggles, but I do start to see how we become trapped and how hard it can be to find a way out.
 
wow, what facinating insight! I have "played" with an N recently, and realised my whole world is filled with them. right now I am in extreme PTSD, just completely numb.
N fog..will, I always attract them????
 
the late snow said:
will I always attract them????

In my experience, there are two steps required to begin to get rid of narcissists in your life:

(1) Learn to recognize their behaviour, tactics, games, etc. so that you can RECOGNIZE, then AVOID them -- i.e. Knowledge Protects. A mantra that has served me well when faced with narcissists: DO NOT ENGAGE.

(2) Practice Self-Observation in order to learn about your own Machine, Programs, etc., to find out why YOU are attracted to narcissists, then begin to work on changing YOURSELF. There is a reason there are so many narcissists in your life, find out what it is.
 
the late snow said:
wow, what facinating insight! I have "played" with an N recently, and realised my whole world is filled with them. right now I am in extreme PTSD, just completely numb.
N fog..will, I always attract them????

If you haven't read Sandra Brown's book 'Women Who Love Psychopaths' - then do it soon. Just ignore the sections written by 'Dr.' Liane Leedom - she muddies the waters in a BIG way and is way off target in almost every way. However - for a really good map of how and why people repeatedly 'attract' them, it's a great resource. Also read all the narcissism threads on the forum - there are great resources there as well.

Knowledge is protection - so while you may (or may not) always attract them - you will learn how not to get involved and how to spot them as soon as you meet them.
 
It came home for me after I read "Trapped in the Mirror" and "Unholy Hungers." I had long known about these things, but I wasn't seeing it in a way that would let me change things. (See here and here for more about these books and two others.)

Finally I was able to begin to see how my choices worked, in disowning parts of myself (something that I learned to do under the influence of narcissists), projecting the disowned parts onto others, and then looking to those people to "make me whole." It is a very unhealthy way to seek relationships, and it often carries very unhealthy conseqences. You end up re-creating your earlier relationships. You can change the pattern, but it takes much more than just "wanting to."
 
thanks for the replies...I understand what you are saying and in every instance of N relationships, they each and every one have made comments about there is something in me they want to "possess" I am trying to figure how let myself BE the way I am, love without pain & W/O having to worry about being abused again.although, I KNOW that something needs to shift also in my thinking, I think I am starting to really learn that.I sometimes get worried that I am a N, myself can N's brainwash you into being like them?.. Looking forward to reading the books and the forums..
 
the late snow said:
I sometimes get worried that I am a N, myself can N's brainwash you into being like them?

It is a disconcerting thought. I have considered this more profoundly just very lately. Łobaczewski's work, which is often referenced in this forum, suggests that entire populations can be swayed by these people.

For example, there is conversive thinking wherein normal people create fantasies about reality to explain the actions of psychopaths in such a way as to humanise their actions. In other words, we project on psychopaths and narcissists our own motivations and our own sense of right and wrong because it is so shocking that they are so completely lacking in these qualities. In essence, we think, "They must be like me." This leads normal people to endorse and even participate in actions they would not normally.

On the level of interpersonal interactions with narcissists/psychopaths, I think that one eventually must remove oneself from the presence of such. In the process of protecting oneself and removing oneself, I think we can find ourselves "hardening" the parts of our psyches most vulnerable to these people: emotions, empathy.

Also, I think we all have some fallout from the narcissistic families we grew up in. By "narcissistic family," I do not necessarily mean the presence of a narcissist, but any family unit where the parents have used the children to meet their own needs rather than meeting the needs of the child as one might expect ideally that a parent would do.
 
Patience said:
the late snow said:
I sometimes get worried that I am a N, myself can N's brainwash you into being like them?

It is a disconcerting thought. I have considered this more profoundly just very lately. Łobaczewski's work, which is often referenced in this forum, suggests that entire populations can be swayed by these people.

For example, there is conversive thinking wherein normal people create fantasies about reality to explain the actions of psychopaths in such a way as to humanise their actions. In other words, we project on psychopaths and narcissists our own motivations and our own sense of right and wrong because it is so shocking that they are so completely lacking in these qualities. In essence, we think, "They must be like me." This leads normal people to endorse and even participate in actions they would not normally.

On the level of interpersonal interactions with narcissists/psychopaths, I think that one eventually must remove oneself from the presence of such. In the process of protecting oneself and removing oneself, I think we can find ourselves "hardening" the parts of our psyches most vulnerable to these people: emotions, empathy.

Also, I think we all have some fallout from the narcissistic families we grew up in. By "narcissistic family," I do not necessarily mean the presence of a narcissist, but any family unit where the parents have used the children to meet their own needs rather than meeting the needs of the child as one might expect ideally that a parent would do.

I do think I have learned this "hardening". possibly as a survival technique. I think it has been crucial. Perhaps, I can get to the point where, I can easily call upon this when I meet a N. Trusting my intuition has to be my goal, too.
My main problem is that I think I can play their "game" and win eventually. the last one,
i knew in my heart to run, however I did not run, fell victim to the "story" even whilst "knowing it was untrue" got the D&D two weeks ago and NOW the way I feel PSTD, that all invasive numbness, shell shocked...
 
the late snow said:
I do think I have learned this "hardening". possibly as a survival technique. I think it has been crucial. Perhaps, I can get to the point where, I can easily call upon this when I meet a N. Trusting my intuition has to be my goal, too.
My main problem is that I think I can play their "game" and win eventually. the last one,
i knew in my heart to run, however I did not run, fell victim to the "story" even whilst "knowing it was untrue" got the D&D two weeks ago and NOW the way I feel PSTD, that all invasive numbness, shell shocked...
Do you really want to "harden" yourself? I am not sure about that word, but I am having trouble thinking of another one. In my own life I have been working with my reactivity--the way I react to various triggers. The problems seem to revolve around not having been permitted to be myself when I was growing up--it was a very narcissistic, alchohol-driven, abusive family situation. When you are told that you are not all right the way you are and that you should be something else instead, you start to disown parts of yourself as I mentioned earlier, as well as to accumulate troublesome memories that can trigger when you find yourself in a similar situation again.

One thing I have been doing about it is to begin to re-own those rejected parts. What we reject we tend to project on others, and by examining what I find particularly appealing in other people I have found that I can discover what parts of me I have disowned, and make them a part of my life again. This has the effect of invalidating the narcissistic influences--I see and deeply understand that what I was told about myself growing up was not true, and I begin to see the problems that the people telling me that were themselves having. When I no longer believe what they said, the triggers no longer have the force that they once had.

For this to work, I have to thoroughly understand "the games narcissists play." That has been hugely helpful. But then I have to discover how that affected me, and to re-integrate what I lost because of it. It is much harder to do than to describe, especially if you come from a particularly nasty family background.

When I think of "hardening," I think of the defenses that we build up against how we have been treated. For me, those defenses have kept me distant from other people, and it was my desire to be closer to others that led me to do (or resume doing) this work. The distancing reflects emotional immaturity -- how would you develop healthy emotional maturity growing up in a family like that?--and there is also likely some degree of "acquired narcissim" because we learn, very automatically, from what we see other people doing.

How you respond to your own narcissistic tendencies will say a lot about you. For me, it created a conflict. For a very long time I have been aware that I have particular "selfish" tendencies. This had bothered me, but didn't understand where it came from and my attempts to change it didn't work. Now I at least see what that is about, and I am gradually changing it. Not everyone is so bothered by it, though, or wants to change to the point of actually doing something about it. Another thing I have noticed is that in certain situations I would catch myself "behaving like my parents" toward other people, especially children, and that really bothered me Perhaps I was self-triggering, behaving in ways that triggered my memories of being treated that way?

Treating other people in obviously unpleasant ways was a little easier to deal with. I think you need to have a well-developed conscience that you have tuned so that it reflects your own values and not those that have been imposed upon you, and you need to have a desire to change. And then you need knowledge and support, and you need to go to work!
 
thank you for your insight megan, very profound..I understand theroetically what you mean but, difficult to practice.
 
[quote author=Ana Valerious]
In fact, this person is able to completely depersonalize the narcissist too. The realist thinks of the narcissist as a Force of Nature. Realists do not get angry at a force of nature. It would be senseless to do so. The force of nature is just what it is and it can't help what it is. It does what it does, wreaks its destruction, and moves on. The energy and effort of the realist is used to stay out of the way of the force of nature until it passes. When the hurricane threatens, the wise realist does all they can to protect them self and their family from the coming storm. They hammer boards over the windows and hunker down in the relative safety of their basement. When the hurricane comes knocking you don't run up and open the door to it. You don't invite the hurricane to dinner. You don't throw your kids out on the front porch to appease the hurricane in order to save yourself. Or, like the natives of certain tribes, throw your virgins into the volcano to stave off its rage and rampage. No, you simply do all you can to protect yourself and stay out of the path of a force of nature. Where is the resentment? Where is the grudge-holding? It doesn't even apply. You have simply come to recognize the truth about the narcissist; they are destructive forces and unsafe for humans. You do not try to reason with a force of nature. You don't try to placate it. You don't waste time hoping the force of nature will grow a heart. You get out of its way and stay out of its way. That is all you can do.
[/quote]

This is well said, alas these wise words have little practical value for my current situation.
My question is -what one does when locked in the professional relationship with such force of nature (if I go through the checklist purplehaze linked, the match is about 85%) ?
Terminating the relationship altogether and quietly moving away is not an option (well at least not for a while).

How do you deal with hurricane after you invited it for dinner?! (Mea culpa, it always is. Signs were very subtle but they were there from the begining . Usual story, it's always so easy to be wise in retrospect and so hard to be vigilant all the time in NOW)
Well now, now it is too late, the contracts are signed and the ball started rolling. Seems I don't have other option but try and endure this person, at least for some time.

Is the only way to survive through this to look at it as an opportunity for personal growth?

If so, how does one stay wise as serpent and gentle as dove when the daily, or at least twice to thrice weekly interaction with such force of nature is inevitable...any practical advice
 
Megan said:
Treating other people in obviously unpleasant ways was a little easier to deal with. I think you need to have a well-developed conscience that you have tuned so that it reflects your own values and not those that have been imposed upon you, and you need to have a desire to change. And then you need knowledge and support, and you need to go to work!

Yes, there is a lot of inspiration in these words. Well said Megan.
 
Deckard, sounds to me like you live in "wishful thinking" a lot of the time. Geeze, even looking at your signature line tells a lot: ""Sometimes you have to do the wrong thing. Sometimes you have to make a big mistake to figure out how to make things right. Mistakes are painful, but they are the only way to find out who you really are...""

Yes, this is true, but to make it a mantra is to approach life from the "glass is half-empty" perspective. (Or so it seems to me.)

It's like you are announcing to the Universe in advance that you will only and ever be able to learn by "making mistakes" and making wrong choices and that you do not have the capacity for associative learning.

If you burn your hand on a stove you CAN transfer that learning to avoid other hot objects, you know.

A wise man learns from his mistakes, a genius learns from the mistakes of others. Maybe "genius" is only associative learning?
 
Point taken Laura,

Actually this is something I have been thinking about a lot lately. The reality is, inter human relationships are very tricky as not all the hot objects glow, in other words associative learning can be very difficult when dealing with all shades of gray in between black and white. It is nice to have the text book checklists for narcissists or psychopaths but in most of the cases you do need to plunge yourself into interaction with certain individuals before you can even start ticking all the boxes.

But you are right and so are CS, wishful thinking ( or to be more precise benefit of the doubt) will get me every time. Even when the signs are subtle they are still detectable and the wishful thinking is the only thing that prevents you from seeing them.

On the other hand it seems to me that approaching life from the "glass is half-empty" (or even completely empty) perspective would be to always bare in mind G's words that all people are shite, not give anyone benefit of the doubt and withdraw at the slightest hint of manipulation ( which is as we learned modus vivendi of psychopaths but also modus operandi of majority of human beings). I guess the key is the right balance between two extremes and this is so darn difficult. OSIT
 

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