To PepperFritz:
You wrote:
“Yes, the study of complex languages has been shown to improve one's analytic thinking processes. However, the aim of this forum is to improve our ability to perceive ourselves, others, and the world around us from an OBJECTIVE perspective, which is another matter entirely.” Or the focused issue would be ’right’ according to you (another quote from you) „Which would fit right in if this were a forum devoted to Hungarian studies. But it is not.”
I try to understand you. So, you think this thread is a ’misfited’ kind of? Interesting… I believed that within the Linguistics part of the Forum I have positionted rightly this thread but if you think that the disscussed issue within it has a miss and in the meantime, the topics of How language is manipulated by Republicans to Win Elections or the other Weaselwords are fit much better to your description as „improve our ability to perceive ourselves, others, and the world around us from an OBJECTIVE perspective” then sorry from me. I think that those of you who have read over the article (including some non-hungarian but worth-to-mention people’s quoted opinions about the hungarian language), has found some potential about how this language can “improve our ability to perceive ourselves, others, and the world around us”. It included issues what hasnt only related to help inventors/scientists: If you have read over the full thread then you realised the quoted opinions hasnt been simply „…study of complex languages has been shown to improve one's analytic thinking processes” but also focused emotional describe, awareness of reality, etc.
If any or many different kind of issue could fit within the Forum’s different Boards – from Conspiracy Theories via various UFO Phenomena reports to Travelogues – and only these kind of hungarian-related isuues havent fit nicely (let say because those posted by somebody who are admittedly fond of relevant curiosities related to his birth country, in my case, Hungary) then I again apologise for my unwanted mistake.
Thank you about the proper overview on Gurdjieff and about on the 4th Way teaching. I must ‘confess’ to you that I have known this issue: I read over the relevant core Gurdjieff/Ouspensky books about the 4th Way (these are also translated/printed here in Hungary). I have thought over about these. In the meantime I even have made a brief contact with long time active members of the hungarian 4th Way group (the group is in continous contact with the the main Paris-centered Gurdjieff study-group). Additionally, I have read over the book of W. P. Patterson (titled as Eating the I: An Account of the Fourt Way) you can find more details and readers’ opinion about it here via this link (use it without break) :
http://www.amazon.com/Eating-Way-Transformation-Ordinary-Expanded/dp/187951477X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1249383699&sr=8-1
And also I have started to read over books on traditional metaphysics (by some contemporary hungarian writer who also know very well Gurdjieff’s books and his teachings). I admit to you that sometimes I even checked relevant threads on it within this Forum… and after a time I have decided (as Patterson have decided it) that I won’t practice too seriously the 4th Way. Or more exactly: I not practice it seriously yet (maybe later?) but certainly I use some usefull practice of it.
Oh, and before I forget to mention: I have knowledge about parallel possible ways such as the route/way started by Carlos Castaneda whose books have translated to hungarian and are aviable on Net (not to mention a hungarian group working based on the teachings transmitted by him).
And… what’s now? After this overview of mine what will be the next step? I clearly hasnt realised that I would need to be a ’hardcore’ 4th Way follower to start an article here or that I mustn’t acclaim others as "fellow spiritual travellers" when I decided on some kind of other personal route for myself (… and in the meantime I have retained fondness of some things ’hungarian’).
„If you are sincerely interested in the aims and purpose of this forum…”
Is it means that when Laura or others are disscussing about the possibilities of the spread of civilisation (at about the late stone age period) from Europe to the South/East (disscussed this in printed book and also within the boundarities of this Forum, including checking possible evidences and signs) then its a respected and accepted course of way but if I tries to give to this theory some support with exact datas (linguistics and otherwise) then that is „…sorely lacking in External Consideration towards other forum members and a clear understanding of what this forum is about?” Hm.
“Will we see some evidence of the "improved consciousness" that your Hungarian studies have allegedly given you?”
I have qouted to you some relevant opinion of foreigners about their experience when they studied the language. I think that this could be a kind of evidence from serious observers… as I have claimed:
“Probably you have realised: when I quoted from various people their opinion about the origin and merits of the hungarian language I have choosen mostly those non-hungarian people who had have the possibility in their life to study intensively the hungarian language and compare it to many different languages.”
I also wrote: „Myself, I hasnt easy way to prove these to you because my birth-language is hungarian…” Mayhaps, if I had learned to spoke in a different language I would be a more dull kind of person – or not. Yes, I have a feeling and idea about this but I didnt wanted to bore you about that: instead of it I quoted independent observers.
But let me give you a little bit of communicational(?) challenge:
- Can you give me any kind of evidence(!) about what your studies on the 4th Way have given to you? Yes, I am also waiting for evidences from you (as you have requested from me evidences and not simple opinion or feeling).
I am really curious to know (so pls, avoid any light remark on me that I am only generating ’empty battle of words’).
„…it would be useful for you to try and raise your own "consciousness" (i.e. "awareness") about yourself.”
Thanks again for your advice. It seems that you have the confidence about that I hasnt done – or doing – this (incl. on general at large and also on the specific issue of ’matters related hungarian’). Have you any evidences? :)
You have directed me to External Consideration page includes:
„Only through having external considering can one serve others. This requires responsiveness and a sense of objectivity and awareness of what is right action for the given situation. Serving in the sense of merely carrying out commands is not external considering.”
… and I wont quote myself at last: you will find my answer in the last part of the previous article by me. Because I honestly wrote those and because I suppose that you have read over on it I need to presume that for some reason you haven’t accepted my claim. Or, you have the conception that I am honest but I ”carrying out commands” (commands by some force of other personality or even more commands of my misdirected inner self… at the end it doesn’t matter). No comment.
To Laura:
You wrote: „For all we know, Hungarian - Sumerian - are languages of the "gods" and I don't mean the good guys, either. „
Ooops… do we know this? Just a note: until now you have been the only one (or it has seems to me only because I can guess only based on the post-makers readers) open-minded enough to think briefly about any possibility of the really ancient roots of the magyar/hungarian language (thanks again for your effort and the posted long quote, a relevant point in it highlighted in blue). From your present answer it seems (or I feel this only?) that you start to accept the disscussed possibility of the theory (If its the situation it good to clear because it would be an additional information for some of the readers). More, as the next step you have placed - in another theory – the hungarian language paralell with the sumerian as “…languages of the "gods" „. But why? Even those modest number of evidences what I copied here as different articles maybe can give ideas to a theory that the pre-magyars (migrated out from the Carpathian Basin to Mesopotania a few thousand(?) years before the arrive of the sumers. Then, if we follow this route of thinking: the basically dull and stoic sumers had have learned speaking/writing from the previuos folks (in this theory, from the late cro-magnonians/pre-magyars) and they have modified the writing/speaking later to their own shake. This wouldnt give any hint that the pre-language had been infected by the influence of the ’foreign gods’ who have arrived to Mesopotamia with the sumers – as conquerors and as oppressors – and pressed the remainig pre-magyars ’out of the Eden’ . Yes, it could mean that some linguistical back-impact has reached (and polluted) the hungarian language as many other nations’ language accross the ages (old turks and finn, to name a few).
Into my second post I have copied the interesting facts found by the Researchers at Université Paris-Sorbonne.
Shijing wrote that from his part “…evidence for many of your assertions (such as the percentages of retention given for various languages above) seems to be unsubstantiated.” But before this claim he/she claimed also that he isnt a kind of expert… in the meantime, we can accept that the mentioned researchers in Paris-Sorbonne are experts.
My present conclusions are:
A) If the sumerian has been the archaic form of the magyar then the magyar is the most “sumerian-gods-infected” language of the Earth, including continous pollution to the mental process of the native – or learned – hungarian speakers (hehehe, after my answers to PepperFritz above, I can estimate that for some reader of this present article this will be the opinion because of me :) )
B) If the Magyar has been the archaic form of the sumerian (step forward by one step: the summers – urged by their gods – deliberately seiyed/studied/learned magyar because of the qualities of it) then there is a modest chance to the possibility that the magyar – or what has been remained from the original which hasn’t insignificant, according to researchers – is the ‘less-infected’ language which is able to give the speakers of it many positive effects, refined via uncount thousand of years by the circulated spiral motif-user european cro-magnonians. A nice apropos for you: one of the most common/used motif of the szekelys (used in carvings, on furnitures, on pottery decoration, even inside of simple flower-drawings) is the circular spiral motif (many of this found also by archeologists in the thousands-of-years-old excavation-findings within Erdely/Transylvania). And observers/ researchers has firm opinion about the szekely spiral motif: the purpose of this motif hasnt simply ornamental but its function is to simbolise Life, and the continuity of the World, and - most importantly - to simbolise the restoration/reborn of the Nature.
You wrote also: “ …a lot of "deformed" skulls have been found in Hungary also, even as recent as the middle ages and later”. It sounds really interesting. Can you point to me the places where I can read more about this topic (including infos about, are there any exact sign to it that the method used by magyars)?
To Johnno:
No, I am not member of the mentioned group. I used some material from them (especially because its in english): where I have copied something I have pointed the names of the writer of any article/quote. Even, presently I don’t plan to be part of the mentioned group… because I am a kind of ‘lone wolf adventurer’. :) Anyway, you are an experienced internet-researcher.
So, for those of you who’ve retained interest here is the link to the 2nd section of the magyar-etruscan article:
http://www.magyarmegmaradas.eoldal.hu/cikkek/english---angol/ak14
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p.s.: Some words by PepperFritz has redirected me to a relevant interesting issue:
„To be frank, your posts -- while impeccably researched -- demonstrate an exclusive and rather obssessive preoccupation and over-identification with all things Hungarian. Which would fit right in if this were a forum devoted to Hungarian studies. But it is not.”
Dear PepperFritz, I say, Its depend on…
A few months ago the editors of Sott.net has choosen – as one of the so called Best of the Web – a definitive article about the present day hungarian situation. The article has written by a certain Anna Porter: she has made
And the editors has tought that this article is a real Best of the Web. I understand that the Forum hasnt devoted to hungarian studies… but I question you or anybody who can aswer to it: How can it be possible that this thread about the hungarian language has given birth to this kind of opinion when in the meantime the Sott.net editors have openly shown their commitment to decide what is the ’right viewpoint’ on a highly delicate hungarian-study-kind-of issue?
I started an independent thread inside the Sott news disscussion and I have wrote about the evidences why the mentioned article writer has written baseless stupidities but nothing have happened. More interesting that in the meantime I have directed my questions to the editors (within the Questions for the Sott Editors area): my questioning has been relevant, quet and without any offense to anyone… but instead of any definitive clearing answer for me, a few months later (after the numer of views had been increased in the reader-counter…) the editors has deleted it without any trace or without any signal to me about it. Note again: if my questioning would have been offending or distasteful - or would have been any other kind of filth - then you can be sure that they deleted it earlier, immediatly).
My point is: lets try to keep the same measurement in everything. If articles relating Hungary or hungarian-related topics are disturbing anyone I will stop (need not close me out, I will leave peacefully and without trace) but if it allowed to focus on it – even as in the form of sociopolitical-related article deliberately choosen by editors – then lets spoke about the relevent evidences and relevant interesting point about it. And dont try to handle these kind of matters as to suddenly delete the thread (even when there are threads where longer hasnt posted anybody anything since much earlier times) or pls, dont step gracefully(?) over the possibility of issue-related critics because its more easy to give some spontanous elegant lecture about the existence of the 4th Way and Gurdjieff’s teachings.
(Below, I can copy into here the mentioned – and later, deleted – questions from me to the editors so you can decide yourself that who has choosen originally hungarian-related issue here… Sorry, because I havent have the short answer by Perceval to my first post – I havent saved his answer because I couldnt imagined that the post will be deleted without any sign after many weeks – but you will understand the point of him from the quotes of my second article)
The first message:
Hello,
I would like to receive response from you to my started thread (pls, see within SOTT News Discussion).
Shortly: You have picked an article (Fascism, the next generation, showed on Sott.net at 9th of May) as one of your so-called Best of the Web.
The article start with really sad examples (to seize the readers' emotional centers) but after that it quickly goes to wild fantasies without base. I think you have a certain kind of - self-imposed - responsibility when you decide to share an article with Sott.net readers as 'Best of the Web'. It seems you quickly accepted the claims from the article writer and based on those you put some lofty comment ("It seems Ms. Morvai is acting as the local 'spellbinder' in this particular descent into ponerization...") about political ponerology connected to the person of Mrs. Morvai. The problem is - what I realised after I read it - that you accepted the created opinion of the article writer (namely: Anna Porter) as 'sentences written in stone' without any real proofs or evidences.
I ask you to read over my thread within SOTT News Discussion and give reaction to it. I think a honest reaction is important to the readers of Sott.net (not only for me as a person or 'for my ego'): I wouldnt like to receive shortly lashed-together answer such as "oh, these are your opinions and if anybody want to answer these its ok, you could wait for it...": because as I wrote, you have chosen the article as Best of the Web and I think if you really want to give Sott.net members the truth behind false facades then you will give meaningfull answer to my summarized feedback (I will continue to focus on any part of it if you have the interest).
In the (just now) last part I have made some comment on the "authority" of Anna Porter as a writer (it seems that her editor-mentioned 'award winning' book is a created fairy-tale to exonerate a self-serving war criminal who had saved only zionists and has sacrificed hundred-of-thousands jews to the nazi's Holocaust).
Best regards,
Athanasius
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The second message:
Hi Perceval,
You wrote: “no doubt the situation in Hungary is more complicated than meets the eye…”
Thanks for you to approve it. But exactly this agreed-on claim of yours is what about I have severe doubts now. If you really would have ideas about the exact situation in Hungary you probably havent choosen the mentioned article – full with baseless claims and slanders – as one of your ’Best of the Web’. I have pointed out these at large in my thread within SOTT News Discussion.
„…however, the point being made in the article, which can be backed up with evidence, is that Mrs Morvai is an exponent of right wing xenophobic ideas which label entire groups or races of people as "evil".”
The article of Anna Porter hasnt contain these kind of ‘evidences’: in my response on the Forum I explained in detail the background of my denial. OR have you got any evidences what you have possess independently from the article-writer’s claimed nonsenses?
Unfortunatelly I havent so called ‘editorial vein’ to give professional form to an article (it has been an effort even to write my responses in english at full lenght) but I dont see the necessarity of it because of the forum-ensured space.
Also, why would my answer need to be short – you thick-spelled this word – if the thread within forum has sufficient room for details (and when you can allow generous space to an article full with conjectures and fictitious accusations)?
If you require a really short response to the article by Anna Porter there is it:
The article full with baseless claims and warped prejudices and it hasnt contains real evidences about that ” Mrs. Morvai is an exponent of right wing xenophobic ideas which label entire groups or races of people as ’evil’. ”
But if you are interested in to know meaningful explanation on this short statement of mine then please, see my reasoning in the recently started related forum thread: I believe the forum has created just for this possibility of open and free two-way communication. And I am waiting inquiringly from you ‘back up with evidences’, if any.
)
