The Hungarian Language: One of the true wonder of the Earth since ancient times

[Rich]

Re: The Hungarian Language: One of the true wonder of the Earth since ancient ti

Your observations are certainly revealing: they expose a covert misanthropic intent. Farewell.

Actually, if that is what my observations reveal to you, then your perception is greatly lacking. I do find it fascinating that upon simply being questioned on whether you knew Athanasius, you 'explode' this way - now, that, is quite telling. You see, often, when one comes to this forum with an agenda and this agenda is even subtly threatened to be revealed, such individuals will completely overreact and then storm out, oh so offended and 'protesting too much'. I'm not saying that is definitely the case here, but, wholly due to your responses, the pieces certainly fit.

Yes you're quite right Anart, very strange reaction and definitely fascinating.

 

[shijing]

Re: The Hungarian Language: One of the true wonder of the Earth since ancient ti

Thanks for the reply. Unfortunately, I can only use original research in my program. This excludes all Wikipedia entries but may include their externally linked original research work. In the case of the entry you mention, I found only links in which the authors either don't source their information, or rely on circular reference - where one author relies on her/his own unsupported (by original research) claims or on another author's equally unsupported claims.

"And linguistically speaking, the connection ... nailed down pretty tightly." This is where I need guidance to original research work (not popularized literature). Could you cite any?

Well, let me first say straight-out that the kind of research materials you can or cannot use in your program is really not germane to this thread -- best of luck in your research, but if you are here to try to use this thread to gather materials for your research project, that's not really what it is here for. That being said, I think that by limiting your materials to 'early or contemporary field work documentation on claims of such connection' (see quote below), you are going to really make it hard on yourself. If I take that literally, then you are looking for fieldwork that specifically tests the Finno-Ugric hypothesis; it may exist, but most often you are going to find published fieldwork on the one hand and phylogenetic analysis on the other.

"Languages and genes don't always travel together as an exclusive bundle..." I don't believe I argued that point. Perhaps this is meant to be a rebuttal to an earlier post by go2 (Reply 12) who relies on blood type distribution to "support the linguistic evidence of a common origin." In this case, your observation actually undercuts claims of a linguistic connection.

No, by referencing mtDNA data in your earlier post, this does seem to be the point you were arguing -- if not, then you certainly left yourself open to that interpretation. The category this thread is posted under is 'Linguistics', and although not all of the discussion has been kept strictly under that umbrella, it is the main theme. And how is it that my observation about the lack of cohesion between linguistic and genetic signals undercuts the claim of a linguistic connection? All it does is say that the genetic evidence may not be congruent with the linguistic evidence (and vice versa).

There's no shortage of verifiable documentation that convincingly refutes any previous claims of Hungarian-Finnish linguistic connection (e. g., Dr. László Marácz, Professor and Lecturer, Amsterdam University, The Untenability of the Finno-Ugric Theory from a Linguistic Point of View: Selected Studies in Hungarian History, 2008, pp. 547-558 and 926-7).

Well, that's quite subjective -- if you have been doing research in this area very long, you will no doubt realize that there is quite a difference between one scholar and the next of what constitutes 'verifiable', and without seeing a list, its hard to ascertain how abundant this material may actually be. I would be interested at some point in taking a look at the reference you cite above -- its germane to my professional life, although not necessarily to this thread.

But I what I need is original research, i. e., early or contemporary field work documentation on claims of such connection. If you know of any, kindly post the info here.

See my response above in regard to the kind of materials that you have limited yourself to. What I can give you are a few solid references on Uralic, in which Hungarian is included in the comparanda and classification:

Collinder, Bjorn. 1955. Fenno-Ugric Vocabulary. An Etymological Dictionary of the Uralic Languages. Uppsala: Almqvist and Wiksells.

Decsy, Gyula. 1990. The Uralic Protolanguage: A Comprehensive Reconstruction. Bloomington, IN: Eurolingua.

Redei, Karoly (ed.). 1986-88. Uralisches etymologisches Worterbuch [Uralic Etymological Dictionary]. Wiesbaden: Otto Harrassowitz

You may do with these as you will -- if you are really interested in the classification of Hungarian, I think you would be wise to consult these works alongside of whatever contemporary fieldwork you are able to find. There is more available than this, but based on your introductory post you seem to be well-placed in an environment to do your own research and find your own resources.

All of this aside, I think there is a more important general question -- now that you have had time to browse the forum, what do you really hope to get out of it? The kind of exchange we have had here could be done more appropriately on a linguistic forum -- are you interested in anything here beyond the scope of your research project which led you here initially? Are you interested in the Cassiopaean transmissions, Fourth Way teaching, or in trying to distinguish objective reality from subjective reality? What we have been discussing is interesting in its own right, but these are really the core themes that underpin this forum -- with that in mind, is this a place that is appropriate for your personal goals?

Update: Even before posting this reply, I see that you have already bid us farewell. I will post this anyway for posterity (and you get some research references as a kicker -- its your lucky day!)

 

[shijing]

Re: The Hungarian Language: One of the true wonder of the Earth since ancient ti

Actually, if that is what my observations reveal to you, then your perception is greatly lacking. I do find it fascinating that upon simply being questioned on whether you knew Athanasius, you 'explode' this way - now, that, is quite telling. You see, often, when one comes to this forum with an agenda and this agenda is even subtly threatened to be revealed, such individuals will completely overreact and then storm out, oh so offended and 'protesting too much'. I'm not saying that is definitely the case here, but, wholly due to your responses, the pieces certainly fit.

Anart, thanks for your own participation today, and I wish I had realized that things had already drawn to a close before I spent time on my own reply. For such a seemingly innocuous topic, this thread has really been kind of a hornet's nest for most of its duration! Very interesting.

 

[anart]

Re: The Hungarian Language: One of the true wonder of the Earth since ancient ti

Anart, thanks for your own participation today, and I wish I had realized that things had already drawn to a close before I spent time on my own reply. For such a seemingly innocuous topic, this thread has really been kind of a hornet's nest for most of its duration! Very interesting.

Actually, I think your input is very valuable. After all, the truth is what matters and the only way to get to the truth is with more data - to that end, the data you've provided is very valuable to the thread. So, thank you!

 

[shijing]

Re: The Hungarian Language: One of the true wonder of the Earth since ancient ti

Actually, I think your input is very valuable. After all, the truth is what matters and the only way to get to the truth is with more data - to that end, the data you've provided is very valuable to the thread. So, thank you!

My humble pleasure -- glad to be of service when and where I can.

 

[anart]

Athanasius focus on 'gypsy crime' in his previous thread disputing an article carried on SOTT rang a bell when I happened across this news article this evening: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8216454.stm

Hungary far-right event broken up
By Nick Thorpe
BBC News, Budapest

The far-right group claims to have 1,500 adherents

Police in Hungary have broken up a ceremony of the paramilitary Hungarian Guard organisation at which new members were being inducted.

Last month, a Budapest court banned the Guard, saying its activities incited fear and threatened public order.

The group appealed, saying the law on freedom of assembly and constitution guaranteed their right to exist.

A party connected to the Guard, Jobbik, won nearly 15% of the vote in June's elections to the European parliament.

This gave the party three of Hungary's 22 seats in the assembly.

The party owes at least part of its popularity to their campaign against what they call "gypsy crime". Critics accuse it of inciting racial hatred.

In a separate development, police are questioning four men arrested on Friday on suspicion of carrying out a series of attacks against on the country's minority Roma population, in which six people were killed.

Black uniforms

According to the original plans of the Hungarian guard, the oath-taking ceremony for new members should have taken place in Heroes Square in Budapest.

When the police refused permission, on the grounds that the Guard is a banned organisation, the event was moved to a private location in Szentendre, just north of the capital.

Several hundred men and women in the distinctive black uniforms of the Guard arrived by bus.

A similar number of police then sealed off the area, and informed the participants that they were breaking the law.

Identity documents were checked, and the event dispersed peacefully.

I was checking previous posts by Athanasius and found that he even posted a link to information on the Jobbik party: http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=12382.msg90321#msg90321.

This goes a long way in explaining the far right leanings in his posts, and his general behavior on the forum. It also never ceases to amaze me how far right movements worldwide are carbon copies of one another, be they Nazi's, NeoCons, Dominionists or Jobbik.

 

[Laura]

Very interesting connections, Anart. In short, this is a bunch of people looking for some mythical ancient connections to justify their ideology in the present kind of like the German Nazis and their "Nordic Superman" past.

 

[Z...]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8216454.stm

well their uniforms certainly look scary, somehow very difficult to imagine "guardians of earth's heart" as Athanasius proposed on history sub forum , to look like this.

 

[NormaRegula]

Re: The Hungarian Language: One of the true wonder of the Earth since ancient ti

...well their uniforms certainly look scary...

Yeah, their uniforms look similar to what the well-dressed US of A riot police wear now-a-days...the only thing missing are black visored-helmets and a taser or two.

 

[hottcherri]

reading the sumerian tablets is quite easy once once learns the process of how they were carved/written, and why.
and you can do that yourself, just by studying them on your own.
it is no different for me when i study other lanugages, i can teach myself easily.

 

[shijing]

Re: The Hungarian Language: One of the true wonder of the Earth since ancient ti

Hi Hottcherri --

reading the sumerian tablets is quite easy once once learns the process of how they were carved/written, and why.
and you can do that yourself, just by studying them on your own.

Can you elaborate on what you mean when you say 'the process of how they were carved/written, and why'? What is it about how and why they were created that makes reading them easy? And is it not the case that one has to be Hungarian to do this, as you implied in your previous post?:

what i find most intrigueing about this thread, is the connection to the ability for hungarians to easily read and understand and interpretate the sumerian tablets, writings.....as when i first saw them, without any previous deciphering, not using anyone elses interpretations of them, i found them easily readable and comprehendable....and i haave a hungarian lineage and a native indian heritage.

Can you give an example of something you were able to read?

 

[hottcherri]

i did not imply that one HAS to be hungarian in order to be able to read them, but that it is easier if you are, i have found.

 

[hottcherri]

i think i might need a seperate thread for replying to the inquest of what i have been able to read, from the tablets, give an example...for there is no short answer, really.
there is such a multitude of things going on, just inside one tablet, that there can never be Just One Interpretation of reading one, and then saying it means this/that, and that ONLY, for each one was made in multiple concepts with multiple thoughts and in multiple dimensions, of understanding what you are seeing, and with multiple languages contained within them..it is almost like (or they are) limitless in what they are trying to tell us, when we attempt to read thru just one of them.
It certainly is easier to read them, if one applies the green language techniques to them, the same ones that nostradamus wrote in, as intstructions to us, as to how to do that....
there are so many thing to read, just from one part of one tablet picture...i think its best to start with, is by asking yourself, what are all the figures doing within the tablet, and dont forget to consider the objects in them too.
then look at what is the possible storyline of what your seeing, and then turn, apply the turning around, a mirroring "green" technique, to them, and to what is missing most obviously in each picture/figure.
most importantly, in my opinion, and its my opinion only, and i dont expect you or anyone else to agree to any of it, because i am not asking anyone to, dont use the english style of reading, soley, on how your reading any of it.
what i mean by that, for example, is dont read just from left to right, as english reading does...for these tablets are not limted to that at all, you can also read them right to left and also up and down, and then invert or reverse them.
this is what it is like to be able to read multiple dimensional forms of writing, put into one tablet full of pectoglpyhcial carvings.

 

[anart]

i think i might need a seperate thread for replying to the inquest of what i have been able to read, from the tablets, give an example...for there is no short answer, really.
there is such a multitude of things going on, just inside one tablet, that there can never be Just One Interpretation of reading one, and then saying it means this/that, and that ONLY, for each one was made in multiple concepts with multiple thoughts and in multiple dimensions, of understanding what you are seeing, and with multiple languages contained within them..it is almost like (or they are) limitless in what they are trying to tell us, when we attempt to read thru just one of them..

So, in other words, you're just rather imagining what they might say, you're not actually reading them with definitive meaning, correct?

 

[shijing]

Re: The Hungarian Language: One of the true wonder of the Earth since ancient ti

i think i might need a seperate thread for replying to the inquest of what i have been able to read, from the tablets, give an example...for there is no short answer, really.

I think that might be a really good idea, because there is a great deal of imprecision in what you are describing, and it would help to have a concrete example to reference and upon which to build the basis of further discussion.

most importantly, in my opinion, and its my opinion only, and i dont expect you or anyone else to agree to any of it, because i am not asking anyone to...

Then why suggest it? If you find it important enough to write about, then you are presumably hoping to either increase the knowledge of or are otherwise seeking concensus from others on the forum.

there is such a multitude of things going on, just inside one tablet, that there can never be Just One Interpretation of reading one, and then saying it means this/that, and that ONLY, for each one was made in multiple concepts with multiple thoughts and in multiple dimensions, of understanding what you are seeing, and with multiple languages contained within them..it is almost like (or they are) limitless in what they are trying to tell us, when we attempt to read thru just one of them....
there are so many thing to read, just from one part of one tablet picture...i think its best to start with, is by asking yourself, what are all the figures doing within the tablet, and dont forget to consider the objects in them too....then look at what is the possible storyline of what your seeing, and then turn, apply the turning around, a mirroring "green" technique, to them, and to what is missing most obviously in each picture/figure.
dont use the english style of reading, soley, on how your reading any of it.
what i mean by that, for example, is dont read just from left to right, as english reading does...for these tablets are not limted to that at all, you can also read them right to left and also up and down, and then invert or reverse them....this is what it is like to be able to read multiple dimensional forms of writing, put into one tablet full of pectoglpyhcial carvings.

Based on what I have quoted above, it sounds like you are essentially advocating that in reading, you allow yourself to make all possible associations with any other language without any constraints imposed, up to and including filling in the blanks for something that isn't there. While there are apparently any number of methods which can be used to encode words in the tradition of the Green Language (as discussed in Johnno's first post here: http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=9291.msg66730#msg66730), these are still systematic and can therefore be described and categorized. What you seem to be advocating is essentially a form of free-association where anything goes, as far as I can tell, and if you do that, you can certainly pull any number of messages and meanings out of anything written -- but there is no certainty that those messages and meanings will be valid or have any truth associated with them. In other words, it is extremely subjective and actually a form of wishful thinking to be able to extract putative information in this way.

I don't mean to be harsh, because I don't think that your intention is to mislead, but I do feel that you may have an understanding of this subject that is not edifying for yourself or others. But by all means, provide a concrete example of how you read a Sumerian text -- if my understanding is wrong, this will be the best way to tell.