The Hungarian Language: One of the true wonder of the Earth since ancient times

[shijing]

Hi Rob --

Yes i did write an intro but lost it all with a press of the back key so i wasn't in the mood to continue at the time. I've learnt my lesson to use Word instead.

That's a very good lesson -- I still occasionally lose posts because my session times out while I am writing and I forget to copy before I try to hit the "post" button, so watch out for that one too (but if you are writing in Word first, this won't be an issue). Thanks for taking the time to re-do your intro post :)

PPS Am i writing too much? i want to avoid all these misunderstandings but am cought between writing too much or too little & being quick as its alwys late by the time i come onto this forum. Cheers (really!) ;)

You are doing fine, although you will start to develop a groove as you participate more. I often have to post late at night too, and I understand the dilemma about quantity vs quality -- I think that the most important thing to do for now is to prioritize your reading. There is a huge amount of information to catch up with if you haven't been reading for awhile, and it takes awhile to get it all assimilated. When you post, maybe just focus on one topic per session that you can give your full attention to if it's late and you're tired, at least for now. Finally, while you are doing this, be sure to take a look at the breathing program that was mentioned in your intro post. Its a good way, along with paying attention to your diet, to start getting yourself centered so that you can take in all of this data more efficiently, and start to feel better as you do it.

 

[Mona]

Hi Rob,
It would be interesting to see what is lurking inside my genetic makeup; it would probably be something like a Hungarian goulash. The only problem I would have with this type of a test is that this information could be one day used against me or someone else in some way. I sound a little paranoid but what if these results are being kept with all our personal information in some database that some individuals could seriously use against us. Maybe I have been reading too many weird books, but it could be a possibility.

It is true that gypsies are being treated worse than animals in Slovakia and Czech Republic, so that is definitely one of the reasons why people are afraid to dislose their true identity. Ten years ago I spent a year working in Topolcany, SLovakia, and I had the opportunity to witness the hatred that white Slovaks have against the gypsies. But to tell you the truth both sides feed each other with their own hatred and by witnessing that I chose to stay away from it as much as possible, because at times people did get very violent and there was no point getting involved as the situation was no where near to a reasonable solution. When I lived in Czechoslovakia at the time when the country was under the Russian occupation, gypsies and the white people lived in harmony. They recognized each other as being different but they respected each other. I used to live in a small village called Devin (it is the most breathtaking place in the country). I was very lucky to have lived in Devin, the village has a ruined castle that was actually destroyed by Napoleon. I used to know where every little hole was in that place as a kid. But anyway, what I wanted to say is that I went to school with gypsy kids and we all got along. My father's best friend was a gypsy; they played together on a soccer team. So, you see all this hatred was awaken all of a sudden by the fall of the communist regime. The communists moved out and the capitalist-psychopaths moved in. It is a sad story what has happened in Eastern Europe but there is no way anyone can turn the clock back. People could have chosen the better side of capitalism, but instead chose the greedy side.

You could be right about the intuition part that psychics use to read people's aura. I used to be fascinated by psychics, I actually wanted to be one when I was a kid (I even experimented with all kinds of tarot cards but eventually ended up with the gypsy cards that half pictures on it. It actually works quite well for me.). Everytime thought when i went for a reading the so called psychics told me about things that never and I mean never came true. I eventually gave up on it and became my own psychic.

Once you get the test done let us know what is hiding inside your own genetic makeup. That would be interesting to know. By the way, my blood tyme is 0. My sister and my mom have the same blood type. My father is eitther A or B.

 

[Rob]

Hi Mona,

it is so dad that people don't get along, i think its not a race issue actually although on the surface it will seem like that to most people. It all comes down (in my opinion) to fear & deeper uncertainty. All disputes come from that base from what i can discern. People don't seem to give others what they demand for themselves. i see that in all countries at all levels of society. It a human condition not a situational one. the problem is that people try to tackle the fire (racism) but not the real cause which is like tackling the fires but ignoring the fuel, storage, ignition conditions, etc.

i notice that when i am seeking the truth (i hate to harp on that term) that i become open to not only different people, but different situations, foods, experiences, etc etc. I judge but from a reduced bias vantage (i don't think we can ever eliminate bias since bias comes from inadequate info in my opinion). and i don't judge to be nasty but to determine the facts & so react accordingly rather than from an illogical emotional stance. Anyway, i read about a number of UN reports of attacks on Gypsies & Hungarians in the Slavic countries as well as the legal systems bias against those groups, which again is sad. The legal systems r unfortunately influenced by politics according to the reports. Seems like people just like scapegoats & the politicians feed that for their own selfish objectives. If they only worked together then each country would prosper rather than stealing form each other & growing poorer.
it makes no sense to me to take sides (ie be biased) which annoys my friends & family sometimes when i don't take their side if i agree instead with a stranger. oh well. ;)

A cousin of mum in Serbia had has his home broken into over 20 times & had most of his art works & treasures stolen. The police mastermind the thefts. One time the thieves stole some items but only reported a reduced amount to the police, who became suspicious due to the report our cousin gave the police. At the pub the thieves were asked to specify exactly what was in the house that was taken & when they lied they were taken away & shot. I'm told even Serbs r being robbed now not just Hungarians & other groups that don't have much left to steal.

Yes, capitalism has its pros n cons as does any other system. People being emotional instinctive creatures want things now, not later. This approach was successful when people were hunters but its destructive when people have full control of their environment.

I don't fear these test since they have nothing to do with govt as far as i know. They know my blood type anyway (B+) since i donate blood regularly. :)
that's another reason i don't want to be nationalistic since i may not even be Hungarian if i went far enough back plus we r all related anyway back in Africa.

i am so jealous u got to explore old castles etc. Here in Oz we don't have that at all. 200 yo buildings r as old it is gets. Only Aboriginal caves & midens are truly old, with some estimates dating back 80,000 yrs. We'll be travelling to Italy & Greece later this yrs to tour the ancient sites, then to Hungary/germany to see the relos. never been to Hungary. we don't have time but i would love to explore the archaeological sites.

cheers

 

[Rob]

Hi Shijing,

finally i get to reply to you. :)

hmm, where to start. I reread my posts & think they can always be improved, or written a million different ways to portray the one intent which shows i could get a million different interpretations of just 1 intent. That’s amazing & disheartening since that means my msg (or anyone’s) will never come across exactly as we intend. Its just impossible. Only maths provides unmistakeable digital (rather than analogue) ideas. Physical things like rocks, trees, humans, cars, planets can never be defined accurately down to the sub-atomic level but only extremely roughly. Colours r impossible to define exactly since the shades r infinite. People dont think of these things & so assume there is write & wrong in everything whereas other than maths there is no such thing in my opinion. Good & evil are merely perspectives & human preferences, not technically definable facts and so do not exist. As they say 'beauty is in the eye of the beholder', its is not a fact. Fa/thin/up/down etc etc don’t exist except as a concept.

hehe, I just had a free health check at work, everything is normal, and after I start riding my bike to work I’ll be even better. Lol BTW, I’ve mediated with the one group of friends for over 10 yrs, hence my breathing is nice n deep (usually). ;)

In what sense did you feel that people were hypocritical?
Ok, but pls remember that I am not having a go at anyone directly but at their action/s. 

1. I assume that you are Hungarian, but that is technically beside the point -- no matter what, you seem to have a vested interest in proving the archaic nature of the Hungarian language and culture, and the evidence for many of your assertions (such as the percentages of retention given for various languages above) seems to be unsubstantiated.
2. I think this is an interesting question, actually. Considering the fact that out of 25 total posts by Athanasius, 18 have been vehemently 'pro-Hungary, Hungarian', focusing on that theme exclusively, it is a relevant question, I think. The identification with all things Hungarian is palpable, yet it would be interesting to discover the point.


1) u asked if he was Hungarian but then said it was beside the point. If so why raise it in the 1st place unless it was the point? U questioned his race, which has nothing to do with the topic or the presented facts. Questioning a persons intentions r not relevant to the argument and therefore not acceptable in science or rational debates . (BTW I’m not claiming anyone is racist, that is I think an impossible task to determine for several reasons.)

I submit that a person’s intentions r no ones business but their own. I will listen to anyone’s thoughts irrespective of whether I like them or not, or believe in their beliefs or not. I will judge their facts not the person. Even if their motive is sinister it doesn’t make their facts wrong. If a bad person said 1 + 1 = 2 are u going to disbelieve them? No, u will know that he is correct irrespective of how bad that person is. Good people lie sometimes while bad people tell the truth sometimes, but if u simply base your judgements on their background you will not find the truth other than by luck. People often honestly think themselves as moral etc but when u analyse their actions/thoughts u find otherwise. As they say, “the road to hell is paved with good intentions(and double standards)”.

2. So I submit who cares if he has a vested interest? The fact is that everyone (and every nation) has vested interests. So what if he loves hungary or the tooth fairy or pizza? Simply ignore any rhetoric and focus on the historical facts he presented. Its not that difficult people. He has every right to love whatever he chooses as do you, or does that right only apply to some people?

It is logical and understandable that each nationality/person presents their side of things since they know themselves better than anyone else in some respects.

I like Laura, she stuck to the facts and attempted to keep the discussions going. 

3. “If you are sincerely interested in the aims and purpose of this forum, it would be useful for you to try and raise your own "consciousness" (i.e. "awareness") about yourself, by examining why you have such a strong compulsion to post exclusively "pro-Hungarian" messages on a forum such as this. Will we see some evidence of the "improved consciousness" that your Hungarian studies have allegedly given you, or will we simply see more of the same from you -- i.e. long posts devoted exclusively to YOUR favourite subjects, but sorely lacking in External Consideration towards other forum members and a clear understanding of what this forum is about?”

What the? I fail to see how Athanasius was lacking in external consideration to other members just because he posted evidence after evidence?? Was he rude? Or is it simply not permitted to post evidence supporting his proposition? Please explain.


Athanasius posted his opinions about expanded awareness. While I think I know what he is talking about, if people disagree then just say so, no need for immature sarcasm. Just because his assertion/s sound silly to some people doesn’t mean that he is wrong. Remember everyone used to think the world was flat and there r constant revisions or backflips to what is mainstream accepted science. NOTHING is set in stone, except maths. ;)

Also remember that if u don’t speak the language then that makes denying his claims even less credible. I am not saying he is correct but people here claim his assertions r baseless (so to speak) yet r in the same (baseless) way deny his claims. Double standard, full stop..

“To clarify, I am not specifically an expert in Uralic (or by extension Finno-Ugric), but I am a trained historical linguist, and the statistics you quoted that you are referencing here are the kind of statistics that usually make me quite wary because they have been provided, usually without careful controls, for any number of languages and they all can't be correct (nor are any one of them necessarily correct). Perhaps you could state specifically who the experts are at Université Paris-Sorbonne who have come up with those figures and how they did so (forgive me if they have been mentioned by name in another of your posts -- I looked, but your posts are quite lengthy, and many of the outside resources which you link to are Hungarian, which is unfortunately inaccessible to me)?”

Why is it that Athanasius has to find the individuals involved yet you simply quote extremely unreliable and often politicised Wikipedia references which in all fairness equates to no evidence at all. I do enjoy using Wiki but it has never been a reliable source. 


“I know that you feel that the Hungarian language is special in some way and you have provided impressionistic quotes from various people to support this, but I just don't see it. My personal opinion is that all languages are very interesting, and I indeed own my own grammar of Hungarian acquired years ago. Some languages may preserve some very interesting clues to prehistory (even in the sense of Secret History), but your twin assertions that Hungarian is the original human language and that by learning Hungarian one can access some kind of special understanding that is not possible with other languages (or it seems that is what you are implying) seems to be straying into a realm of strong subjectivity and identification.”

That’s like saying if don’t understand the mathematical equation claimed to solve a problem, and the ones u do know do not solve the problem at hand then the claimed equation is merely subjective or doesnt work. Without testing the claimed equation u cannot make that statement. That is a guess rather than proof.

Of course who here has the time to learn Hungarian, or Chinese, or whatever. That simply means the question can only remain a question.

Basically, people r denying or politely ridiculing Athanasius from a point of ignorance rather than tested or otherwise proof. And that is the point I am making, and why I assert double standards. I assert that neither Athanasius nor anyone else on this forum has proven didly squat.

The only way to do that is to test the theory. Quoting mainstream science doesn’t prove anything, otherwise we’d still think the world was flat and still live in trees looking at the orange thing that started when a flash came from the sky a mill yrs ago. You have to take a leap of faith so to speak beyond accepted knowledge to make discoveries because there is an infinity of untapped knowledge out there left to solve. And much of it wont be done with current scientific knowledge or principles. The fact the experts disagree amongst themselves is further evidence that mainstream knowledge is not the be all and end all that many people rely on.

Avala – “I also think that writing pages about one's language and how people could spiritually advance by learning that language, is feeding on one's own delusions, steeling energy of other people and external inconsideration. And on top of that not having a foggiest idea about clues given by other participants.”

Avala may be right, but maybe not. Where is her proof that he is delusional etc? Without proof all Avala is doing is guessing and denigrating. Stealing energy? That’s an emotional unproven ‘unevidenced’ accusation not befitting a proper debate. She may be correct on the last point. Ath may not be aware because English and English culture is not his natural state and so he will miss the clues. Also, people will misunderstand different cultures due to lack of common reference points. As an Ozi with Hungarian parents I can straddle the two worlds and notice those differences that neither side will see. The drawback (off topic) is that I am neither 100% Ozi or Hungarian, but a bit of both which means I wont fully understand what it is like to be purely of one culture. I will therefore miss some of the nuances.

Avala, it’s a 2 way street, it takes 2 to tango, ever thought that u may also be missing his points? Just because u disagree with his points doesn’t automatically magically mystically mean u r correct. I’ve had a quick look at his other posts and while I am taken aback by them logic dictates that I cannot agree or disagree since I don’t know what really happened in the past (I wasn’t there and much accepted history is not based on indisputable fact but on circumstantial evidence and political bias).

Anyway, that’s plenty evidence for my belief that hypocrisy has occurred numerous times, not necessarily intentionally. I have no problem with people not agreeing with ATh but without evidence to the contrary they are no more valid than his claims.

Phew… this is tiring and the misses is pestering me to go to sleep… ciao everyone xxx

PS. Pls remember I am NOT having a go people but at what they do, irrespective of how my writings come across. Peace all! 

 

[Mountain Crown]

Rob,

This is pretty cool: Signal to Noise Ratio

So are these:

Economy with Words

The 1-Minute Speech and the Economy of Words

 

[anart]

Rob,

This is pretty cool: Signal to Noise Ratio

So are these:

Economy with Words

The 1-Minute Speech and the Economy of Words

Hi Jerry,

Since Rob is new here, I think it might be externally considerate of you to cut him just a bit of slack on his word usage. Let's give him a chance to settle in before insinuating that there is a problem with his writing, since I don't really see a big issue there at this point.

 

[John G]

Since Rob is new here, I think it might be externally considerate of you to cut him just a bit of slack on his word usage. Let's give him a chance to settle in before insinuating that there is a problem with his writing, since I don't really see a big issue there at this point.

Yea Rob even asked about his writing and got some feedback from Shijing. This is kind of a topic where long somewhat difficult to go through posts aren't exactly unexpected. Using the quote feature in the future would be good, but given the way he is talking about multiple posts from multiple people, he'd have to be adding his own quote tags.

 

[Beau]

Rob,

This is pretty cool: Signal to Noise Ratio

It would be externally considerate to Rob, and to the rest of the forum, to point out where in Rob's post you thought he was writing "noise". Just writing above is not very helpful at all, to anyone.

 

[Mountain Crown]

Rob,

This is pretty cool: Signal to Noise Ratio

It would be externally considerate to Rob, and to the rest of the forum, to point out where in Rob's post you thought he was writing "noise". Just writing above is not very helpful at all, to anyone.

I felt that drawing Rob's attention to the topic of signal to noise could have a mitigating effect on his penchant for preaching. I tried to be subtle because I didn't mean to offend.

 

[Mona]

i notice that when i am seeking the truth (i hate to harp on that term) that i become open to not only different people, but different situations, foods, experiences, etc etc. I judge but from a reduced bias vantage (i don't think we can ever eliminate bias since bias comes from inadequate info in my opinion). and i don't judge to be nasty but to determine the facts & so react accordingly rather than from an illogical emotional stance. Anyway, i read about a number of UN reports of attacks on Gypsies & Hungarians in the Slavic countries as well as the legal systems bias against those groups, which again is sad. The legal systems r unfortunately influenced by politics according to the reports. Seems like people just like scapegoats & the politicians feed that for their own selfish objectives. If they only worked together then each country would prosper rather than stealing form each other & growing poorer.

Yes, capitalism has its pros n cons as does any other system. People being emotional instinctive creatures want things now, not later. This approach was successful when people were hunters but its destructive when people have full control of their environment.

You are absolutely right. You know when we escaped to North America, after a while I realized that there is not a big difference between communism and capitalism. Capitalism is just a different version of the same 'a political system with the same agenda to control the masses'. Have you read 'The Shock Doctrine' by Naomi Klein? I would recommend this book if you are interested in understanding how the capitalist movement changed the many countries in Eastern Europe after the communist collapse. It is a fascinating read.

If you get a chance you should drop by in Devin, Slovakia. Don't bother with Bratislava, it is a depressing dump not worth seeing. I Have been to Corfu, Greece and I loved it; the culture/food/people just everything was amazing. I feel sad for the country as it's future does not seem too bright. Budapest, Hungary, is beautiful as well. If you do go to Hungary dont worry about the language. Most people speak English and are more than happy to help you in case you get lost. Italy I have never been to. One day I hope I will make it there. I used to backpack a lot when I was younger, it's too bad I did not have a chance to visit Italy. I did manage to backpack in Australia for 4 months and that, my friend, was the greatest adventure I ever had. I was not too crazy about Britain, and actually London was not as great as many people said. I would say that Prague is the most beautiful city I have ever seend, not London. You did not mention if you were planning on visiting Germany. If you do then I would suggest you find a cheap place in Munich for at least 3 days and from there you can travel easily to many of the famous castles in Germany;most of them are situated near Munich. I saw the whole city on a bike. Oh boy, Austria, Wien, don't let me go there. It is one of my most favorite places in Europe. Everything is close by, you should not have any problems seeing these places in a short time. Also if you are planning on renting a car, buy the insurance at home. I'ts much cheaper and I would not suggest you driving in Eastern countries especially in SLovakia. IMy hair turned gray after the experience, but I made it out of the chaos alive.

One thing I will miss when this planet will be destroyed, is the many beautiful places here. Too bad people don't know how lucky we all are.

 

[shijing]

Hi Rob --

Hi Shijing,

finally i get to reply to you. :)

I know that under the conditions you mentioned earlier it takes an extra effort to write a post this long, so thanks, and there is never a rush :)

Good & evil are merely perspectives & human preferences, not technically definable facts and so do not exist. As they say 'beauty is in the eye of the beholder', its is not a fact. Fa/thin/up/down etc etc don’t exist except as a concept.

Although it is true that good and evil can't be boiled down to a list of "dos" and "don'ts" because the context is always important, my understanding is that in some sense they do very much exist. The operative terms used here are STO and STS, and these are probably more useful than "good" and "evil", since the latter set of terms has been purposefully misappropriated and bleached of their original meanings over time.

hehe, I just had a free health check at work, everything is normal, and after I start riding my bike to work I’ll be even better. Lol BTW, I’ve mediated with the one group of friends for over 10 yrs, hence my breathing is nice n deep (usually). ;)

That’s good – it puts you in a good position to begin trying out the E/E program here.

1) u asked if he was Hungarian but then said it was beside the point. If so why raise it in the 1st place unless it was the point? U questioned his race, which has nothing to do with the topic or the presented facts. Questioning a persons intentions r not relevant to the argument and therefore not acceptable in science or rational debates . (BTW I’m not claiming anyone is racist, that is I think an impossible task to determine for several reasons.)

Actually, I made the inference about Athanasius’s ethnicity based on his combined input on more than one thread during the time that he was a member (I believe that you mention you have read his other posting history, but in case you haven’t, you should take a look at it). The question of his background, while not germane to the linguistic questions he was raising per se, was very relevant to what appeared to be his overall agenda. Take a look at this particular part of the thread, and the subsequent post by Laura (who you feel has dealt with the subject objectively) paying attention to what is said about Gypsies:

http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=13148.msg98656#msg98656

I submit that a person’s intentions r no ones business but their own. I will listen to anyone’s thoughts irrespective of whether I like them or not, or believe in their beliefs or not. I will judge their facts not the person. Even if their motive is sinister it doesn’t make their facts wrong. If a bad person said 1 + 1 = 2 are u going to disbelieve them? No, u will know that he is correct irrespective of how bad that person is. Good people lie sometimes while bad people tell the truth sometimes, but if u simply base your judgements on their background you will not find the truth other than by luck. People often honestly think themselves as moral etc but when u analyse their actions/thoughts u find otherwise. As they say, “the road to hell is paved with good intentions(and double standards)”.

True, but there seemed to be good evidence that his facts were wrong. Remember that on this thread, Athanasius was arguing for (1) a Sumerian connection to Hungarian, (2) a very ancient position for Hungarian as a “mother tongue” of languages, and (3) particular spiritual qualities associated with speaking Hungarian which were presumably inaccessible when speaking other languages. He did not provide facts which backed any of this up in a credible way, and it was important to show this in view of his wider agenda (see above).

2. So I submit who cares if he has a vested interest? The fact is that everyone (and every nation) has vested interests. So what if he loves hungary or the tooth fairy or pizza? Simply ignore any rhetoric and focus on the historical facts he presented. Its not that difficult people. He has every right to love whatever he chooses as do you, or does that right only apply to some people?

However, it was not just a case of Athanasius “loving” Hungary. His historical “facts” were not always (or even often) factual, and they were being employed to bolster an agenda of Hungarian superiority. Moreover, this is not the kind of forum where we “ignore rhetoric”. We are interested in truth, and rhetoric is not about truth – it’s about manipulating people’s beliefs.

It is logical and understandable that each nationality/person presents their side of things since they know themselves better than anyone else in some respects.

A person’s identification with nationalism can also lead to prejudice and subjectivity. See the previous paragraph.

I fail to see how Athanasius was lacking in external consideration to other members just because he posted evidence after evidence?? Was he rude? Or is it simply not permitted to post evidence supporting his proposition? Please explain.

Please see the above. Also, what parts of Athanasius’s evidence did you find compelling? If you quote those parts specifically, we will have something to discuss objectively.

Athanasius posted his opinions about expanded awareness. While I think I know what he is talking about, if people disagree then just say so, no need for immature sarcasm. Just because his assertion/s sound silly to some people doesn’t mean that he is wrong. Remember everyone used to think the world was flat and there r constant revisions or backflips to what is mainstream accepted science. NOTHING is set in stone, except maths. ;)

It isn’t a matter of sounding silly or not. It was a matter of (1) having data that actually backed up his assertions and (2) the greater agenda within which his assertions were contextualized. What is it that you feel you understand about what he said regarding expanded awareness? Be explicit if you choose to answer this, so that we have something to talk about empirically.

Also remember that if u don’t speak the language then that makes denying his claims even less credible. I am not saying he is correct but people here claim his assertions r baseless (so to speak) yet r in the same (baseless) way deny his claims. Double standard, full stop..

Actually, the fact that Athanasius does speak and is Hungarian makes his position more open to bias – it would strike me as more objective if it were a non-Hungarian arguing his points, whether they are correct or not. And one doesn’t have to be able to speak Hungarian in order to evaluate his claims. If Athanasius makes a claim that is not ultimately defensible, then why should the burden of proof fall on those who call him on it? It is not a double standard, it is holding someone accountable for what they are arguing.

Why is it that Athanasius has to find the individuals involved yet you simply quote extremely unreliable and often politicised Wikipedia references which in all fairness equates to no evidence at all. I do enjoy using Wiki but it has never been a reliable source.

It is true that Wikipedia is neither always objective nor reliable. There are some articles from Wikipedia which I would not quote here for that reason. However, this is not true across the board. In the case of the Wikipedia articles I quoted in this thread, I read through them carefully to avoid this problem, and to the best of my knowledge, the information in them is reasonable. It is therefore not possible to say that this “equates to no evidence at all”, and in fact violates your earlier assertion that meaningful facts can still be gleaned from biased sources (those with rhetoric). Again, if there is a specific part of any of the Wikipedia articles that you feel is biased, please quote it here and we can examine it.

“I know that you feel that the Hungarian language is special in some way and you have provided impressionistic quotes from various people to support this, but I just don't see it. My personal opinion is that all languages are very interesting, and I indeed own my own grammar of Hungarian acquired years ago. Some languages may preserve some very interesting clues to prehistory (even in the sense of Secret History), but your twin assertions that Hungarian is the original human language and that by learning Hungarian one can access some kind of special understanding that is not possible with other languages (or it seems that is what you are implying) seems to be straying into a realm of strong subjectivity and identification.”

That’s like saying if don’t understand the mathematical equation claimed to solve a problem, and the ones u do know do not solve the problem at hand then the claimed equation is merely subjective or doesnt work. Without testing the claimed equation u cannot make that statement. That is a guess rather than proof.

Actually, it’s more like saying that Athanasius has no proof of having an actual mathematical formula to begin with. If I told you that I was able to transmute lead into gold, wouldn’t you like to have some proof of that? I could argue that you can’t falsify my claim because you aren’t me, but would that make me any more credible?

I’ve had a quick look at his other posts and while I am taken aback by them...

Perhaps that should be something that gives you pause?

...logic dictates that I cannot agree or disagree since I don’t know what really happened in the past (I wasn’t there and much accepted history is not based on indisputable fact but on circumstantial evidence and political bias).

That’s true – and yet you can still study what happened in the past and make inferences.

Anyway, that’s plenty evidence for my belief that hypocrisy has occurred numerous times, not necessarily intentionally. I have no problem with people not agreeing with ATh but without evidence to the contrary they are no more valid than his claims.

That’s fine, and I believe your sincerity. I do think it might be worthwhile to take a step back and examine your own feelings about this thread. I get the impression that you are identified with Hungarian to some degree, in the same was that Athanasius, etudiante, and even hottcherri were. It might be worth your while to ask why you feel that Athanasius was so mistreated when, in fact, all evidence points to the fact that he was trying to force the data about Hungarian to conform to a larger agenda that was at the very least nationalistic and rather bordering on racism itself.

Also, if you are really interested in this topic, there is a very good book I just finished a couple of months ago which treats the subject of Hungarian affiliations. The author argues essentially that Hungarian is not strictly Uralic, but incorporates a large Turkic substratum:

Marcantonio, Angela. 2002. Uralic Language Family: Facts, Myths and Statistics. Oxford: Blackwell.

 

[Rob]

Hi Jerry & Anart (& everyone else), :D

thx for the advice Jerry & the understanding Anart & all those who tried to cut me some slack. Much appreciated.

Just know that I truly don’t mind being advised about anything since from a logical perspective:

a) no one is perfect & we cant see ourselves as others do
b) its free advice (whereas going to uni etc is costly) so I’ll take whatever knowledge all of you can give me which i then pass onto other people
c) i presume everyone is honest & wants whats best for everyone (i know that isnt always the case but thats how i start with anyone i meet)
d) of course my writing can & should improve :) (as should everyone's) And as should every aspect of our life. I suspect if we dont constantly strive to improve ourselves then we degenerate into bogans so to speak (is that a known word outside Oz?). (I know its not nice to characterise a group but it’s a very quick description. Bogan is slang 4 a lazy person (usually poor) whose only focus is an easy life without earning the conditions for that easy life (hence why they r poor), thus relies on Govt subsidies which is high in Australia.)
e) etc etc

One of the reasons i write a lot about 1 concept is because i find misunderstanding is almost inevitable in 1 or 2 sentences. So to avoid back n fwd emails to clarify i attempt to head off what i 'think' people may misinterpret, but also to provide examples to make it easier to grasp my often 'out there' concepts.

I tried to be subtle because I didn't mean to offend.

Thanks for the thought Jerry. :) I suggest in my case simply be absolutely straight to the point/logical & just add & smiley to show u mean no disrespect. I may miss your point if u r subtle. I do have feelings but as long as i know u arent 'attacking me personally' i have no problem having my opinions picked apart as long as its logical & verifyable etc etc. ie non-derogitory responses... The truth matters much more to me than my hurt feelings (which i will get over anyway).

I have no choice but to slow down, my post yesterday was poorly presented with quotes highlighted in Word but not in the post, my review didnt catch that.
If i presented similar efforts at work i'd be hung form the nearest yard arm. Pharmaceutical r strickly regulated so eveyrthing has to be risk assessed, documented exactly & neutrally, & business/QA speak, all woprk is reviewed & authorised by several SMEs/mgrs etc etc....

Anyway, i have to answer the other posts... so thankyou all very very much for the understanding & feedback.... PS this forum seems to have very different etiquette to typical forums where u just go straight in & chat, being a nice person isnt quite enough. So if (when) u find i do something against the rules or whatever pls give me an quick example & the error done. (spelling excluded ;)) thx Rob

 

[Rob]

Hi Mona,

I have a million books in my library not even scanned thru. No time.. :(
ATM i am taking forever to read:

* B4 the Pharaohs (Egypt's mysterious prehistory) - claims much earlier civilization created the sphinx etc based on erosion tests & flood reports... (E. Malkowski)
* Garden Guide on Vegi growing
* History Begins at Sumer (Kramer)
* The Hungarians - a 1000 yrs of victory in defeat. (i think i know what he means???)
* The history of the ancient world (Bauer)
* Attila the Hun (C Kelly)
* The Huns EA Thompson

I'll take your advice Mona on travel. :)
Yes, we'll land in Frankfurt & go to Stuttgart to see uncle & tour for 2 days then go to Hungary for 2 days (havent figured out what to do there) wont have time to visit ancient sites so will try to see the horse shows & old life style things. maybe try to buy antiques like a drink bottle Kuloch (kulacs i think its spelt), whip, coins, anything not heavy.

we'll have 1 month 3 wks in Mediterranean (Italy, Egypt & Greece), 1 in Europe. still working it out. We'll probably go with Infinity Travel who r supposed to be top class. i expect to get an idea of what we can visit on our own the next time we travel there based on what we see on the tour ....

A Romanian friend at work said she wont drive in Romania because they drive like maniacs (her words). She doesn't like gypsies either, nor does anyone i hear. I suspect they cornered themselves into a particular lifestyle being stateless & things developed from there... I hear the gypsies in Hungary r nice enough, its the Gypsies from Romania she says that go to Italy & elsewhere that cause most trouble. i have no experience on the matter so i cant comment on the truth of anything. i suspect everyone is correct to some degree & wrong in others. like anything i suppose...

all the best . :)

 

[Rob]

Sorry Shijing,

i didn't finish replying to your 1st post.

BTW, Magyar means: Mag (seed) Yar (go, wander, travel). It literally means the seed nation or seed of human kind which can be interpreted as going forth to colonise..


What is the evidence for this?

i speak hungarian (like a kid), 'seed' & 'go' etc are literal translations of commonly used words . I've read that term was coined a long time ago, sumer times or earlier. I've saved many dozens of articles by historians so i'll have to dig it out (oh my aching back, lol)

As for his gypsy beliefs or overall agenda I still think its irrelevant to the topic which was about language etc. i agree that it increases risk of bias etc. My point is simply to ignore that & consider the available evidence. Being a racist (according to what some imply) doesnt make his assertions incorrect about the language etc. The focus should stay on the topic (in my opinion). Besides anyone can be considered a racist depending on what perspective u view them from. I read posts by anti-hungarian racists but i still considerd their assertions & evidence. I remind myself that some people r labelled freedom fighters by some, & terrorists by others based purely on their own perspectives. Hence why i see valid & invalid points made by Israelis, Palestinians, etc etc etc. No side is pure & untainted by a loooong shot. Its the extremists of all sides that cause the problems & the inaction of the moderates that allows their extremists to continue.

True, but there seemed to be good evidence that his facts were wrong. Remember that on this thread, Athanasius was arguing for (1) a Sumerian connection to Hungarian, (2) a very ancient position for Hungarian as a “mother tongue” of languages, and (3) particular spiritual qualities associated with speaking Hungarian which were presumably inaccessible when speaking other languages. He did not provide facts which backed any of this up in a credible way, and it was important to show this in view of his wider agenda (see above).

hmm, I disagree about the lack of facts, its the lack of 'mainstream' facts i think u refer to. As i mentioned previously relying purely on established science will achieve slow & limited discoveries at best. It takes unconventional postulations to make quantum leaps which science can then test according to the new theories. Not to mention existing science is far from perfect or know-it-all. Mario Alnei is a recognised Italian academic who substantiates much of the assertions made by hungarians & others, though differs on several respects as well. Point 1 is quite possible & there r many academics from many fields who believe so, have a look at the Oriental movement that has very strong evidence opposing the mainstream positions. Point 2 is possible though i for one do not think it is possible to conclude what language was 1st, the best we can do is discount the younger existing/known languages. But there r several new statistical models out there that purport to explain much in this area. Personally i think language started 100,000+ yrs ago which would not be like any known language in my opinion, but i have read that magyar has seed like construction hinting at it antiquity (evidence coming ;)). Vocal cord development is debated according to the docos i have seen, some estimate 100,000 yrs, some earlier, others only 50k which seems rediculous (3) though weird sounding i have read something along those lines by non-hungarians though i didnt pay much attention to them at the time. But i have seen accounts by non-hungarians some of which Ath showed that suggest extraordinary qualities of the language. Just because many are 19th c doesnt mean they r wrong. Most of these people spoke manylanguages incl magyar unlike the experts today. According to John ?? (address deleted to protect privacy) the specialisation of fields today & lack of funding is contributing to the loss of multi-field experts (eg, linguist, anthropologist, etc all in 1 person which was much more common in the past) which means evidence may suggest something in 1 field but when evidence is derived from other fields the conclusions may change completely. This field disconnection is a problem i suggested to john (a historian) & he agreed..

****Why does this screen jump all over the place as i type?? is the focus shifting to other objects?? (IT speak;) *********

Anyway, it would be nice if it was proven magyar was blah blah blah but thats as far as it goes 4 me, I'd rather know the boring truth than a glorious falsehood. Nevertheless I suspect what Ath was trying to put across is true in some ways since i can relate to what he is saying since english isy 1st language but also know enough magyar AND thus can attest that the 2 r not simply different languages of similar qualities, but that Magyar has intriguing qualities. Evidence to follow in later post. :)

Actually, it’s more like saying that Anathasius has no proof of having an actual mathematical formula to begin with. If I told you that I was able to transmute lead into gold, wouldn’t you like to have some proof of that? I could argue that you can’t falsify my claim because you aren’t me, but would that make me any more credible?

While i would say that i am '99.999999% doubtful' that you can transmute into gold, i cannot say with 100% certainty u cant. That is an impossible task except for god (in my opinion). As i said another time, we dont have to know 'why' or 'how' we just have to allow for the possibility. Only god knows everything to be able to say ye or ne. You dont have to prove anything because what if, for example, u can only do that while no one is watching, or that god gave u that power only if no one tests u. Crazy scenarios of course, but my point is that we need proof not only to corroborate but to also deny something, otherwise the only remaining option is an unproven yet possible postulation.


I understand your point about the burden of proof & do agree in a practical sense. i am however cognisant that the lack of proof doesnt mean something is not true, it simply means it hasnt been demonstrated in a mainstream acceptable way. I will not wait for a scientist to tell me a truck is about to run me over b4 i jump out of the way. I will start getting off the road when i hear vehicle noise well b4 i see anything. There is no proof the truck is coming, but the evidence is more than enough 4 me to get off quickly. ;)

I will over next few days dig out the most credible evidence i can find, from all walks of life. :)

Your last comment about me 'associating' is very true, there is definitely some association, it cant be avoided as much as i would want to avoid it. EVERYONE associates with their 'race' & i have no problem with that. Yes the risk of bias increases without doubt, but by not knowing the language (& culture) the risk of incorrect dismissal also increases. I still assert that u have to know (& understand) the math formula in question b4 u can dismiss it.

The reason i am interested in this/hungarian topics is a) i enjoy history b) being of hungarian background i am simply interested in it. I dont know why any more than why i like pizza more than most foods, which btw is the food of the gods. i just do. ;)

I am of course interested in all history & do read widely but i dont have the time to seriously delve into other nationalities unless they link to hungarian in some way. I wish i could. I cant (no one can) avoid some bias in favour of their own kind so to speak, its biological if nothing else. I do seek the truth however so my strategy, so to speak, is find all the info on magyar culture etc i can, from all sources & try to build a cohesive picture that single fields tend to miss due to their single focus. i am not an expert so my aim is to bring hitherto unknown research by hungarians or others to the attention of mainstream experts for them to a) make them aware of 'other' possibilities, & b) to research those possibilities. My opinions my be correct but i cant prove them. Its up to the experts to do that. My strength is logic not science facts. As a business analyst & trouble shooter i dont need to know prooven facts since they r usually not available or reliable otherwise i would not be called in to fix something where the 'experts' have failed, or to increase the efficiency or effectiveness of a system. Logic plus thinking 'outside' not 'inside' the square is far more effective every time. Science is at its best (just like an accountants), where the laws & pricipals r well known & established, they simply plug the round pegs into the round holes. Change their surrounding by introducing new but uncommunicated tax laws & they would fall in a heap. Science us the same, it can only prove what is within its sphere/limits of current technology, but no more.

As a business analyst i know without doubt that if i simply abided by accepted practice my projects would have yielded very limited results. I consider mainstream practices, but i go well beyond them since they r by (my) definition limited to the known (assumed) & there is much much more out there undiscovered than what has been discovered. And as i said b4, established facts/science is being refuted & proven wrong every day (or thereabouts).

By in large though i agree with what you are saying. I am simply trying to make sure that the burden of proof applies to all sides. ;)
That is: 'yes' or 'no' requires proof, theory doesnt. (i think)

all the best my friend... :)

 

[Rob]

Hi Shijing, i'll reply with heaps of evidence tommorrow to your latest post.

i've been ordered to bed..

regards
rob