the path of recovery

[RedFox]

I know that feeling (or lack there of)...I'm still dealing with it at the moment.

Some observations that may be of help. Firstly I felt like this the most during/after taking antidepressants (years before sott)....so its probably a really good idea to read the Diet and Health section. Specifically the sticky threads involving detox/diet/candida. Also if you are taking/did take any anti depressants to research them here (I'm not saying you should stop if you are mind). I discovered that apparently fluoxatine is a derivative of fluoride which is poisonous.
Severe stress depletes the body of its reserves, so you probably need to make sure your replenishing it at the very least.

Second observation is that of those around you, do you perhaps notice anyone who seems particularly attached to you? OR you feel more depleted around?
If you haven't read it already I'd recommend 'Unholy Hungers' by Barbra Hort.

Lastly, this thread on too much empathy may help, particularly webgliders last post.

I have just read this thread, and I'd like to make one point and that is that if one goes too far to one extreme, it is very likely that at some point one will swing just as far to the other.

So if one starts off being very empathetic to the degree that it unbalances one's life; the reaction to this imbalance may be to swing to the opposite of empathy and become intolerant.

If you read Ouspensky's "In Search Of The Miraculous", you'll read about how, under The Law Of Seven everything becomes its opposite. This is because people are asleep. Look at how the idea of democracy is transitioning into totalitarianism; how Christianity which was based on love morphed into The Inquisition, and, in our times, Blackwater, The Christian Right, and The Dominionist Movement. How many times throughout history have the victims turned into the persecutors? Did you see the Sott News Page showing photographs of the treatment of Jews in Nazi Germany on the left compared to the same suffering of Palestinians in Zionist Israel on the right?

Unfortunately, before we can "Do" anything, we must learn, in the example of the horse, the driver, and the master, how to manage our centers. Without doing this, we are puppets swinging wildly from empathy to hate, doing the will of our invisible masters and, in the process , becoming that which we hate.

 

[Laura]

At this point I don't want to know how to deal with narcissists. I think because so much of my focus has been on them over the last 8 years I'd prefer at this point to focus on myself, how I found myself here, how I can find my way back to feeling other than so negatively affected.

Actually, after 20 years... five kids, and almost dying in my relationship with a narcissist, for me, the most healing thing was learning everything I could about pathology so that I could really, deeply understand it, and then share that understanding with others. I understand what you are saying that you need to "find you," and that's fine, but for me, "finding me" was imbuing those years and years and years of suffering with whatever meaning I could. And if the only meaning was to use my experiences to help others, well, that helped me a lot. It meant that my life, my suffering, wasn't in vain.

You've only got 3 years to regret... so, perhaps it is easier for you to just find your way back to doing whatever you did before. But for me - and others - the only way to heal the past and shape the future is to work on the NOW in a positive and giving way. If you keep doing what you've always done, you'll keep getting what you've always got. If your experience didn't change you for the better, then it wasn't worth much, now was it? If you go back to exactly what you were and were doing before, can you be sure that you won't get "caught" again?

 

[mamadrama]

Those were very apt descriptions, Phoenixxx, and fwiw, I have felt what you described and still often do. I don't know if you've started reading Gurdjieff yet, but if not, that may be the next step on your road to self discovery. At some point he describes, heating the crucible which you can find briefly discussed on Cassiopedia.

Heating the crucible involves internal friction, a struggle between yes and no, as Gurdjieff puts it. Little I's and programs cannot be discovered unless they are activated and one attempts to work against their pull. Heating the crucible, i.e. receiving shocks and working against one's default responses while remembering oneself is a way of first knowing oneself and then creating cohesion.

The word annealing, which means repeatedly heating and cooling a piece of metal while shaping it, relates to this process. Several repetitions of the same or similar shocks are needed for achieving permanent results.

Cooling too fast makes brittle metal and in the allegory would correspond to self-calming, i.e. denying or rejecting the shock or dissociating it. Not cooling at all is not good either since one cannot function in a state of permanent shock, besides this too leads to dissensitization which is not the objective.

So, in using these allegorical terms, it's important not cool the crucible too fast or you will not learn the vital lesson you were given to learn. For myself, when I get weary of this seeming suspension of the "spark," I remember how thoroughly duped I was before, thinking that I had found true love, etc. when in actuality, I was throwing my pearls before swine. If I was that wrong before, then I am going to be good and sure not to make the same mistake again. So I try to have patience and encourage you to hang in there, it is a worthwhile process, osit. One has to die to be born again, eh Phoenix? And when that occurs, when one rises from the ashes, if one really does the work, this time it is without the lies.

 

[Phoenixxx]

Redfox,

I didn't go the route of antidepressants, for me at least, I didnt want to numb out, even to the pain. (Ironic isnt it?) But in all the reading I've done in the last 3 years I have as you mentioned, come to learn that chronic stress, especially of the post-traumatic kind wreaks havoc on a body. The constant flood of stress chemicals is only the beginning. I cant imagine what feeling chronic intense hatred does to systems of the body. At one point I was hospitalized for what they oroginally believed was a dissecting aorta (I thought it was a heart attack). Since then I'm much more compassionate towards my muscles and organs....and brain. I think thats exactly why I'm asking these questions, because I feel sorry for what I put my physical body through and want to "make amends".

So yes, my physical health has become a high priority where it wasnt so much before.

I do indeed have one dependent in my life, my 12 yr old son, but he's a good guy and causes me no stress whatsoever (wheres the wood so I can knock on it?). My tolerance for any other people who take more than they give grew very thin over time with my exN/S and so ever-so-slowly I've weeded them out of my life. But I understand fully what youre suggesting. I think N/abuse survivors are probably more sensitive to that factor in their environment than most other people.

In that regard I am sure I have come off to the uninitiated and uninformed as that pendulum that HAS swung in the opposite direction. I DID swing wildly from empathy toward my exN/S to hating him...from being patient and tolerant to impatient and intolerant, from generous to demanding, from welcoming to dismissive, from trusting to guarded. After almost 3 years of recovery though, I let myself off the hook. It seems part of the healing process not just from abusive relationships but any traumatic experiences or disease. If one almost dies from alcohol poisoning, its common to be aversive to even a glass of wine with dinner...or demanding no one brings alcohol into ones home.

Any residue I have in that regard I earned honestly, and believe will fade as the others have over time.

Lots of good food for thought there though, thankyou.

 

[Phoenixxx]

Laura,

I agree with the wisdom of learning as much about them as one can, how to deal with them, and watching for opportune moments to share the knowledge with others who unknowingly are at risk of being abused by N/S's.

I think what I meant to say was, I had spent so much energy doing that already, I was finding an inner urge to switch the focus of my attention from them...to me...and other survivors. Thats just where MY interest is pointing, and just at this given time. Who knows where it will end up eventually? I've been asked numerous times now to write a book, but that just doesnt seem like "me" (illustrate one maybe). But thank gawd for those who DO write books, give lectures, run websites, specialize in this in their counselling practices etc.

I'm interested in how things tick , and morph, and progress for survivors...in finding the way out of this maze of mental and emotional pretzeling N/S's built around us, how its different for many of us, what works for some, what works for others (...what might work for me).

I like what you wrote about finding the greater meaning in a horrendous experience. I had someone suggest a few months ago to read "Mans Search for Meaning" for just that reason. I can honestly say I get it, I agree...AND that wisdom hasnt yet come to me. I dont know what the meaning of it is for me, I dont know how I am any better after that experience than I was before.

But I continue to keep my eyes and ears open for that answer.

I'm glad you found yours. I imagine it must bring one a lot of comfort in the aftermath.

 

[Phoenixxx]

Black Swan

You know, about a month or so ago I started working with glass as a new medium. So reading about "annealing" had me smiling and nodding vigorously, cooling glass too quickly makes for a spectacular and colourful shattering explosion (I've been responsible for a few as a beginner!!!).

Annealing is an apt metaphor!

and fits quite well with this nickname I've had for years now.

( vigorous nodding)

 

[Phoenixxx]

OK so I'm halfway through "Deep Therapy" (thankyou Nomad, its an interesting read thats for sure).

Theres something about it, not quite sure yet what, thats also linking up with what you quoted Redfox, from webglider (by the way I did take note you said youre experiencing some of the same, so let me send a "howdy pardner" wave your way). I'm going to leave the 2nd half of the reading go until tomorrow or the evening after, and then perhaps post what connections came up for me.

I posted a lot today (sheesh), but am glad for all of your input. For now I need to be quiet for a bit and digest.

 

[Hildegarda]

I used to feel my emotions. I used to feel irritation, fatigue, hunger, satiation, drive, ambition, delight, awe, reverence and a whole slew of other things.

Oh! I know. Its even physical. I used to feel thirst when I was thirsty, hunger when I was hungry, tired when I was depleted. Now I only know I need to drink because my throat and lips become dry. [..]

I dont feel those things now. Its like my brain and nervous system are on novacaine...numb...flat...blank.

what you described sounds very much like burn-out:

The difference between stress and burnout. Here is a handy checklist:

\\\http://www.vamortgagecenter.com/blog/2008/10/29/stress-burnout-how-to-tell-the-difference/

Dr. Arch Hart

* Burnout is a defense characterized by disengagement.
* Stress is characterized by overengagement.

* In Burnout the emotions become blunted.
* In Stress the emotions become over-reactive.

* In Burnout the emotional damage is primary.
* In Stress the physical damage is primary.

* The exhaustion of Burnout affects motivation and drive.
* The exhaustion of Stress affects physical energy.

* Burnout produces demoralization.
* Stress produces disintegration.

* Burnout can best be understood as a loss of ideals and hope.
* Stress can best be understood as a loss of fuel and energy.

* The depression of Burnout is caused by the grief engendered by the loss of ideals and hope.
* The depression of Stress is produced by the body’s need to protect itself and conserve energy.

* Burnout produces a sense of helplessness and hopelessness.
* Stress produces a sense of urgency and hyperactivity.

* Burnout produces paranoia, depersonalization and detachment.
* Stress produces panic, phobic, and anxiety-type disorders.

* Burnout may never kill you but your long life may not seem worth living.
* Stress may kill you prematurely, and you won’t have enough time to finish what you started.

it makes sense that burnout would come after stress and emotional upheavals like the one you went through. I also vaguely remember that there is a special name for extreme apathy that comes after prolonged emotional stress and persists for months, but I wasn't able to find a reference this time.

so may be it's just the matter of resting, finding new things that keep you going and continuing to push fr the Truth without spreading yourself too thin.

hang in there -- "that too shall pass"

 

[Laura]

Actually, Hildegarda's mention of burnout reminds me that I DID have a "recovery period" at the end of the relationship and before I began really studying and sharing what I learned with others. I spent three years remodeling my house and working in my garden, literally almost 8 hours a day. When I wasn't doing that, I was reading whatever I wanted, floating in the pool, shopping, and just generally working on my environment inside and out.

At a certain point, something shifted and I no longer felt like a victim, I felt fortunate to have had the experience and having learned so much from it.

All during that rest period, I was journaling and recapitulating my life.

So, maybe you should do a similar thing? And that would, of course necessitate forgetting that this forum even exists for a time.

 

[Phoenixxx]

Hildegarda

yes!
thats exactly it I think!


I'm cutting and pasting that to keep and reread.

I also very much like the suggestion of taking it easy. Its not exactly what I wanted to hear (I'm a do-er, a solver, a creator) but when that advice comes right after a description that seems so bang-on, it seems the appropriate thing to do. So this isnt something to be fixed, but a normal response to what I've experienced, it is itself part of the path to recovery? Thats so interesting. Its so simple and seems so...correct.

This "state" of mind (burnout) began after coming home from the hospital after the anxiety attack in August (when they thought I had a dissecting aorta). This makes everything make sense now. I had made the mental shift while there of NOT feeling the anxiety anymore. Now I'm just hoping this wont be too prolonged.

Thanks ever so much!

 

[Erna]

Just to come in on the tail end of this thread, I think self healing is a different process for everyone. I had the same experience that Laura did:

[quote author=Laura]
At a certain point, something shifted and I no longer felt like a victim, I felt fortunate to have had the experience and having learned so much from it.
[/quote]

In that ‘rest’ period, one’s mind continually goes back to events and the ensuing dialogue and friends and family’s behaviour in the unfolding drama. That for me, although I only realized it much later, was part of the healing, even though it occurred naturally. I got closure on so many things and little by little the weight started lifting. I became like a machine, working day and night, and since I also work with visuals, my mind always drifted into the past. When I woke up one morning, I realized the burden was completely gone.

Where I felt robbed of time and left behind, today I am glad for having experienced it. It made me a better person, it made me richer. Where I felt anger and hatred towards him, today I pity him and anyone who comes near him. I know that he can only dish out misery to himself and others.

Even though mine happened before I discovered this forum, even more ‘clicked’ after I started reading here. A LOT of ‘nodding’ at ungodly hours.

It sounds like your ordeal is fairly recent (and I consider a year or two to be recent). Give it time and don’t try to be hasty. You’ll trust again one day, and then with so much more wisdom.

You know what’s best for you. Listen to yourself. You do lose yourself in a relationship with a narcissist, but you are not gone. You’ll find yourself again.

 

[PepperFritz]

For what it is worth:

Looking back, they key factor in my healing process was taking responsibility for my own actions in the relationship -- which is NOT the same as "accepting blame" or being judgmental towards myself. Not at all. I needed to really face up to what I did and did not do, and more importantly, understand WHY I did what I did and did not do. I had to recognize where I had my own narcissistic agenda in the relationship as well, and go back and understand where that came from. I guess it represents the shift from seeing oneself as a "victim" and beginning to understand oneself as a "co-dependent". For me, once I reached that point, the focus shifted away from "him" and towards my own issues. And that is where the Work was essential to the process, in that it led to my becoming aware of my own emotional issues, programs, mechanical thinking and behaviour, and taking steps towards conscious change....

 

[Phoenixxx]

PepperFritz,

I've read a number of approaches to healing similar to yours. I spent a good portion of time wanting to accept my part in things going to hell-in-a-handbasket very early on. The message I got from 3 of the 4 T's I saw during the last 7 years was that in my abusive situation I didnt do anything wrong. It took one of those T's a long hard effort to get me to believe it in my heart. It was easier, and more desirable for me to look for my errors in judgment, reactions, choices because that I could fix right? That I could amend and make sure would never happen again. Its much MUCH harder, for me at least, to come to grips with the reality that someone who swore they loved me more than anyone would use and abuse me, and beyond leaving there wasnt a thing I could do about it. And after reading about trauma bonding I am proud that I finally did construct my own exit when I did and not years later.

I also recognize there are people who are codependent who find themselves in dysfunctional relationships with dysfunctional people in which they themselves become ever-more dysfunctional. That was never a question for me. I had empirical evidence in the very healthy relationship I continue to have with my non-N/S exhusband as well as the other men and women in my life. I'm not codependent, OR a narcissist (that was confirmed by the T's) and in fact it was that refusal to become codependent that created so many arguments between my exN/S and myself. I dont attract psychopaths. But one found me, and I'm perfectly happy accepting the responsibility and hard job of doing the work of healing and recovery.

I wouldnt dare suggest anyone else's recovery choices are wrong or misplaced, because I agree that everyone has their own specific needs and their own most-productive ways of meeting them, but I no longer think its a harmless thing for me to accept responsibility that doesnt belong on my shoulders (I did enough of that IN my relatioNship, its time for me to get and stay crystal clear about those things now).

In my experience, N's, S's really can target and ensnare emotionally normal partners. And part of me believes, from my own personal experience, its because some of them really hope they can somehow BECOME normal.

Erna, you mentioned about no longer feeling like a victim. I used to feel targeted, injured, hard done by, depleted...robbed. I then went through a phase so dark with hatred that I had become the shadow side of that. While I "locked myself down" from actually acting on any of my dark and rageful impulses, I -- for much longer than I found tolerable -- felt how dangerous I was to him if he had shown up in my personal space. That was beneficial if for nothing else to become familiar with my own potential for damage and sadism. The magic of healing happens when those 2 polarities become integrated, and a person becomes whole again, right? That process was done in therapy and it was far from easy. In fact, it may have been one of the most difficult tasks of my life.

So while I have not felt like a victim since August, I do still hold in my awareness the reality that bad things were in fact done to me by a bad person who meant to cause me pain, who meant to trick and deceive me, who meant to take without giving,...I could go on.

I dont feel injured but I recognize I have been, just as I recognize I have scars from other mishaps and accidents and other things that werent my fault except that I "was in the wrong place at the wrong time". I am not as full of "light and exhuberance" as I once was, and that the healing process still cotninues.

What I do notice is what one T who specializes in helping people recover from N/abuse calls "daemonium". My subconscious, in trying to save me from the same kind of negative experience has made it so that I'm aversive to vulnerability and intimacy with a man. I have dated 8 men since my breakup, and while I LOVE the company of good men, and been blessed to have a number of them be interested in me, I get aversive (phobic?) when any sort of intimacy (physical or emotional) is pursued. I have no desire for that kind of relationship with a man, I dont miss it, I dont hunger for it, I dont feel the void of not having it anymore and I run from it when it presents itself. The thought of growing old alone doesnt bother me in the least, in fact I find the idea comforting because that daemonium is pleased that I wont be "at risk" again.

Now, I'm perfectly willing for that to change. I dont FEEL like a victim in need of protection (although its obvious my daemonium does), but in fact it feels like I survived some kind of poisoning that almsot ruined my life. I want to stay as far away from poison as I can...at least romantically.

I dont think thats a rare result from the trauma of an abusive relationship. But its also another way in which I know I'm not codependent. Theres no need to be needed, no love of love. I dont feel any urge to be a saviour, or to be punished. The urge I feel these days, and thank gawd I have that one, is to keep working, keep moving forward, keep building on what little hope and little victories I have gathered underneath me.

I dont doubt for a moment that N/S's target other pathological individuals, but I think its a mistake to assume every victim has her own pathology to deal with. I think signs of emotional damage, distress, fear, are normal given what people who have experienced N/abuse have lived through.

wow -- lots of good meat to chew on -- thanks everyone

 

[vinny]

the only thing I would add right now is to say perhaps you are/were not co-dependent but it would be important to discover the chink in your 'psychic armour' that allowed this to happen. parasites only attack because there is an opportunity. doesn't mean you are responsible, but that some knowledge you were lacking he was able to take advantage of. I guess the fact that you are now able to foster healthy relationships probably goes some way to making you 'unavailable' to similar attacks, but it is good to know one's weak points. As PepperFritz says, this is not the same as 'accepting blame'.

 

[Phoenixxx]

Nomad

you bring up some good points. I have thought about it for the last 3 years, I've talked about it ad nauseum in therapy. I've read, questioned myself endlessly and the only answers I come up with are that I expected my exN/S to be like any other normal person, and while I loved, I had hope. It took a long time for that hope to die.

I suspect that last line resonates with other survivors.

I came into this world completely naive about narcissists and psychopaths except for those serial murderers I watched on TV. The garden path variety, the kind that use and abuse their lovers was never a part of my world that I could recognize.

In that way, websites like this one are useful, its too bad this kind of knowledge is not made part of highschool sex ed classes, or sociology courses for teens.

Its the kind of knowledge one only gets through experience.

Does that come off sounding naive...or like denial? (nod nod) I'd like to not be either, so I feel constantly vigilant about this kind of thing.

I had parents who stayed together till death did them part, and I witnessed daily arguments that were respectful and almost always rooted in my mother demanding her equality in a marriage to a man who wanted things to be traditional and like the "old country". That is the ONLY thing I can think of that set me up to stay with someone who treated me badly. My dad loved my mother till the end, and I suspect respected her because she refused to be "lesser than". It provided her with a quality of life she needed before Womens Lib took a foothold.

That was my primary female role model. It worked for them.

Theres no working that with a narcissist/sociopath/psychopath because winning his respect was never possible. But I DIDNT KNOW THAT until all hope was gone.

I was waiting for my pride, assertiveness and fortitude to reap the same benefits for me, as they had for my mother.

Instead what I got was a slow spiritual death.

I agreed to it, I agreed to stay despite feeling there was something terribly wrong, especially when I realized finally that he was profoundly lacking in empathy. So really, in the end, the staying part I have no one to blame but myself...because of my ignorance...and my hope.

I have little hope left, and none of the ignorance so I'm not afraid of ever finding myself staying in another relationship like that again.

and that....

well...while I feel confidence and comfort in that reality, I also feel some sadness that the innocence of the romantic fairy tale is gone, never to return.

but thats grief for ya, right?

one often has to lose something in order to gain something else.


p.s. my son and I just got back from our Pancake Tuesday dinner and shopping at the bookstore (there are problems with the order I placed) - we laughed, we joked, we poked fun at each other, and then a very attractive, well spoken and funny gentleman in line with us made conversation for 5 minutes, making lots of eye contact -- he was flirting with me --

I'm still nauseous....sad thats the viceral reaction I have. I used to like that kind of attention long long ago...in a land far far away.