The "Rational Male and Female"? - Biology and Programs in Relationships
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So, it "went off the rails" because I entered the discussion and gave my considered opinion and view which is, apparently, quite opposed to your own? And yet, as you point out, this IS a forum where people come because of my work.... isn't that a bit contradictory?
There is just so much wrong with Tomassi that it's not worth the time and effort to weed through it. He appeals to a certain "loser type" of male and he does that deliberately to make money; it's that simple.
nature
Dagobah Resident
furryfrog,
I lived many years with a psychopath, a smart and successfull one. I can say you that he is very keen on making others admire him, follow him, listen to his advices. How is it possible? He uses truths (or at least ideologies widely admitted, even if not really morals ones) that make weird or amoral ideas passing very easily. Also, they seem to be "philosophical" with beautiful words: excellent in the form (surface) but empty in their bottom.
A smart psychopath is also charming. You have to look at the hole picture (cf Cs: paying attention right and left) in order to spot him/her.
I lived many years with a psychopath, a smart and successfull one. I can say you that he is very keen on making others admire him, follow him, listen to his advices. How is it possible? He uses truths (or at least ideologies widely admitted, even if not really morals ones) that make weird or amoral ideas passing very easily. Also, they seem to be "philosophical" with beautiful words: excellent in the form (surface) but empty in their bottom.
A smart psychopath is also charming. You have to look at the hole picture (cf Cs: paying attention right and left) in order to spot him/her.
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furryfrog
Jedi
I did say the conversation had good interesting content. (I now realize we are in the work thread, I did not before, my mistake)I am saying people are shaming Tomasi personally, and then henceforth disregarding all the Material he presents, It leaves an impression that the material is not even worth looking into, I believe the material is worth looking into, especially for men, young men specifically. Perhaps not specifically for the "Work" though.
I agree it is a valuable discussion, just not valuable in the practical sense related to Tomasi work. it is not analyzing specific ideas or behaviors he presents, to give them validity or not.
Tomasi's work has a big influence in the manosphere, I am not trying to throw a curve ball to you or anyone else, but the manosphere is a good resource as well. The Manosphere is growing and covers a wide range of topics, beliefs, education, self improvement, diet ect. It also includes shallow/ vain topics, negative outlook areas. You can't put the manosphere in a nutshell, even the sub topics like MGTOW are very broad in themselves. I wish this information was available when I was a young lad, for example leading your life with a stoic outlook , confidence building, Tomasi's work ect.I have had a lot of time on my hands this last year because of illness, and have spent a lot of time in the manosphere, mostly youtube, I was too sick to read, Im much better now. [/QUOTE]
Sounds like Pick up artist material. (PUA) That material is in the manosphere, and I have watched some presentations on the topic. It never was something I was into, nor am I now, too old anyway,lol. I have looked into it superficially though and do remember It having something interesting that grabbed my attention. One particular presenter, at the end said something like "whats the point, is this just a shallow and vain exercise?" The presenter went on to explain, before he got into PUA he lacked confidence, and could not emotionally express himself, he could not even tell his mother he loved her. I remember asking myself if this idea could be useful for the work, and I think it has some merrit. Imagine a 22 year old super shy guy, starts talking to a girl and loses control of all his centers. body on auto pilot, head down, emotional center nervous, And his mind stuffed full of inner considering. Not saying his aim should be to bed girls, but getting a shy guy to the point when hes comfortable talking to women marks great progress. I have incorporated this Idea into my work philosophy.
I wished my uncle gave me the books, or familiarized me with the material. I think you nephew should familiarize himself with Tomasi's work and other material in the manosphere, like the dangers of getting into porn, emotional downside of having a large sexual history, not to lose confidence and self worth when your a 19-20 years old male in the dating world ect.
The manosphere is so big we could find parts that will both agree and disagree with you. I think the sexes have been divided before I arrived in this world.Personally, I won't follow the information like a cooking manual and baking a cake with my head down, when I get my health back perhaps I will start dating and use the information to help avoid energy draining relationships. Or when a confused guy at the gym brings up his relationship problems, I likely won't have to guess whats going on.
Most of those questions have straightforward explanations, the spinning plates one i would say is more variable, but the underlying reason for it is important. I would not say they are the only possible truth, some more than others.
This is a great comment, I agree, and the question at the end is a good one too.! Tomasi's advice more revolves around leading by example. If you want to get your wife to lose a few pounds, get yourself in shape first, then it may inspire your wife to get healthy. He mentions talking about an issue like this can be difficult and risky. Some in the manosphere will suggest to bring it up with your wife right away before it gets out of hand. My view would be it depends on the people involved, and communication is always important, but you can't go wrong with leading by example, if that does not work, start the discussion.
Depending on the scenario, some just talking or flirting, but the dating ones, most guys would view as long term or potential long term relationships.
Tomasi deserves "shaming". Sheesh, what a Lefty/Libtard thing to worry about! Based on the clues, he is very likely pathological and if you've read Ponerology, you should know how his influence on others will turn out.
I'm not "leaving an impression", I'm stating clearly that his material is not worth looking into mainly because it is corrupt and the average person cannot defend their minds against ponerological influences of this type. Again, read Ponerology.
If you think it is worth looking into, "especially for young men", then I'm afraid that you are exhibiting signs of the first criterion for ponerogenesis:
"One phenomenon all ponerogenic groups and associations have in common is the fact that their members lose (or have already lost) the capacity to perceive pathological individuals as such, interpreting their behavior in a fascinated, heroic, or melodramatic way. The opinions, ideas, and judgments of people carrying various psychological deficits are endowed with an importance at least equal to that of outstanding individuals among normal people. The atrophy of natural critical faculties with respect to pathological individuals becomes an opening to their activities, and, at the same time, a criterion for recognizing the association in concern as ponerogenic. Let us call this the first criterion of ponerogenesis."
The only thing that Tomassi will achieve is a concentration of individuals with various psychopathologies.
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It doesn't apply to the 'Work' because it is based in an oversimplified mechanistic approach to relationships. It provides a set of rules that you apply in order to 'control' the relationship. For the very same reason, it is not good for young men, or old for that matter.
It is very appealing to people who do not want to do the hard work of understanding another person and giving what is needed, and it is especially appealing to men because many men have little to no understanding of their own emotional make up much less that of others. This is not a good thing for young men starting out in relationships. Yes, it gets the woman on their 'hook', but they are taught to keep her there. That is not a good relationship by any TRULY rational understanding of the word.
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What is Laura saying here? In a nutsheel: "this woman is obviously not made for you, so take your responsibility".
There are two ways to address such a problem. On one hand, like Laura suggested you can take your responsibilities, change what you can change particularly yourself, be aware of the role you play, make decisions.
This is the painful path where you have to face your own fears and illusions. Ultimately, you realize that your current situation is solely the result of your past choices.
There is also the easy path where you shift the responsibility to others, in this case evil women that become the cause of all your problem. You are the victim of females' manipulation.
That where the manosphere enters the stage. Beyond the politically correct gloss the manosphere depicts the women as evil manipulators and to not be their victims the only solution is to be even more manipulative!
So much hypocrisy in the manosphere while claiming to help built real men, brave, responsible and kind; it actually creates the opposite of what a real man is: manipulators that demonize the other sex.
BlackCartouche
Jedi Master
I've had a few friends over the years sucked into the manosphere. Its starts off the same every time: Betrayed, mortally wounded by the "one true love" so they rebound into polygamy. The manoshere loves polygamy. Prolific polygamists are manosphere gods.
Once he becomes entrapped in the manosphere (the effect is immediate - which says a lot about him in the first place) he will wallow in it like a pig in shit! He won't be able get enough of it - to the detriment of any hope of drawing to him an actual genuine faithful and loving woman who digs him on a soul level, because his vibrations for such a soul attraction have now gotten waaaay out of sync.
The crux of every 'man' inside the manosphere can always be broken down to justifying the one-way street for the stirring of his loins. It really is that simple.
I hope we don't devote a further 15 pages glooping about another 'Rollo Tomassi' slurry pit looking for a dime that probably isn't even there.
Once he becomes entrapped in the manosphere (the effect is immediate - which says a lot about him in the first place) he will wallow in it like a pig in shit! He won't be able get enough of it - to the detriment of any hope of drawing to him an actual genuine faithful and loving woman who digs him on a soul level, because his vibrations for such a soul attraction have now gotten waaaay out of sync.
The crux of every 'man' inside the manosphere can always be broken down to justifying the one-way street for the stirring of his loins. It really is that simple.
I hope we don't devote a further 15 pages glooping about another 'Rollo Tomassi' slurry pit looking for a dime that probably isn't even there.
BlackCartouche
Jedi Master
The problem manotites can't seem to overcome with the biological prerogative argument is the rather relevant-yet-problematic issue of having a male-female population ratio near-abouts of 50:50 men/women. If all proper men should become alphas and mate with multiple women as nature demands, but each woman should, conversely, be governed by her biological prerogative to seek procreation with ONLY one man! - then how does that work out exactly??
I tried to help an 'alpha' out a couple times wrestle with this inconvenient little fact.
I suggesting either;
- the necessity for constant warfare between men to keep the ratio of male population very low thus ensuring harmony for each polygamous man to copulate with as many decent monogamous women aplenty as the ratio would generously allow.
- Or another alternative, that could go in conjunction with the first: To encourage homosexuality within the male population of a high enough hetero-homo ratio imbalance to limit the need for mortal competition between red-blooded alphas.
Right, Lobaczewski's hard won work didn't come to mind, but it should have. Once you mentioned it, it was like duh! (slaps hand on forehead) I had not read any of the online stuff, only about a third of the second book. I would like to think that my more normal world view (that I have one in the first place) had been at work adjusting what I was taking in under the excuse of 'creative latitude.' But it was simply a thinking error on my part. Once you pointed it out, it was obvious. This is precisely why a network like this is so valuable. Although, that was not a book I think I would have picked up and read in the first place had there not been such a lively discussion here. But, it has sparked perhaps a much needed discussion about the differences between men and woman and what a healthy and honest relationship should look like. OSIT
I don't even think that some guys have to be "betrayed, mortally wounded by the one true love", they only need to have a beef with their partner and instead of dealing with things in a mature way, allow the beefs to grow and fester until the end result is almost the same as if they were "betrayed, mortally wounded." But it's all in their visceral system; they feel bad, and they create a narrative to explain why it's somebody else's fault. And god help the already wounded guy who needs to grow up and get over early infancy wounding if they get caught in the clutches of a Rollo Tomassi type! Those are the ones in whom this pathological perspective anchors most deeply and they really feel like they've found the answer! Something the Tomassi type says/writes will "resonate so strongly within that it just has to be true!" Well, it only resonates because the person is already twisted inside by wounding.
Yup, exactly so.
And it is SO interesting that this particular "divide and conquer" thing between men and women comes along at exactly this point in time; and I mean, specifically, to this corner of the internet, our group, etc.
Exactly at the point in time when things are really heating up (or cooling down, as the case may be) in our environment, exactly the point in time when the Cs overall predictions are coming to bear on the planet in a serious way, exactly the point when the Cs cosmological perspective is getting a huge boost from current research, all of a sudden, there's a new, big lure to pull some people into confluence with the 4D STS materialist, Satanic, paradigm that is seeking to take over the planet.
Indeed, there is a program for everyone and without a network we are all lost.
Andi
Padawan Learner
I was thinking more about this and was asking myself - is Hypergamy even a real thing or is it just a made up fancy word to describe a twisted observation witch in reality that observation it's the result of the complex mommy/daddy issues, programs etc.
In order for Tomassi to make a buck, he had to make it such that "all women are like that" and on top of that mention nothing about men, as if men are not to be blamed because you know ..the immutable feminine nature. A recipy for conflict between genders where no one gets to learn about what is really the casue of all of the problems between sexes.
In order for Tomassi to make a buck, he had to make it such that "all women are like that" and on top of that mention nothing about men, as if men are not to be blamed because you know ..the immutable feminine nature. A recipy for conflict between genders where no one gets to learn about what is really the casue of all of the problems between sexes.
furryfrog, you might want to carefully reread Adaryn's post above and see if you can catch anything that sounds SERIOUSLY troubling. A natural reaction to this kind of pathological talk should be disgust and a dire need to get away from that stuff as fast as possible. There is hardly anything more needed to see just how pathological it is, what Tomassi is advocating. It is seriously and darkly messed up, to put it mildly.
Interesting thread! So while I haven't read Tomasi'sd books, I have been introduced to the "manosphere" or "red pill community" a few years ago, and have spent a decent amount of time trying to learn what that is all about. In my case, it started by watching something called "Blue Print Decoded" by a guy who calls himself Tyler Durden (real name Owen Cook), and he founded one of the most prolific "red pill" companies called "Real Social Dynamics". Luckily, I wasn't the demographic they're selling to, just like most on this forum are not (young, impressionable naive hormonal 20-something men desperate to get good with girls), so it was easier to see the manipulation, the inconsistencies. The irony is while they teach "game", they're utilizing just as much "game" to get men to buy-in, and I mean that literally, the amount of MONEY involved that they get out of these guys is mind boggling! I spent some time mulling it all over, and initially I started with some "AHA" moments, followed by just as many "something isn't right here.." moments, which started to make sense over time.
So here's my take-away:
First of all, you may have heard of "Real Social Dynamics" without realizing what it is - here is some info, including one of its main instructors, Julien Blanc:
Disgusting sexual predator: Julien Blanc, the 'female attraction' expert, glorifies sexual violence -- Sott.net
Leading UK pick up artist says he doesn't know how Julien Blanc sleeps at night
And here's a really nice and thorough investigation someone did on Reddit about their community and exactly the kind of behavior they're teaching and promoting. If this doesn't scream "psychopaths - run away, and fast", I don't know what will:
Granted, this is not Tomasi - but they are honestly in the same "larger group" - the red pill community, and "RSD" and Tomasi are big names in this community - different groups, authors, slightly personalized slants, but largely the same idea.
The thing is, the material isn't all incorrect - like others have mentioned, if applied and practiced, it works. And there are nuggets of truth there that certainly can be enlightening, and can teach you something about yourself to some degree. You gotta have that if you want to attract a huge following and make tons of money, you gotta have your truth sandwich. But you can say the same about the Bible, or Freud, or pretty much any scizhoid declaration out there - it's gotta be based around certain truths to "blow people's minds" with biological and behavioral facts they may not have thought of before, and then when you get their attention, you layer your bullshit right in.
Red-pill stuff tries to veil itself as "self development" - in other words, the "sophisticated" red-pill groups distance themselves from typical pick-up artists by claiming that they don't teach you techniques and behaviors, but help you clean out your conditioning and basically clean out your machine by getting rid of learned thoughts and behaviors that turned you into a "beta", to help reveal the natural alpha hiding on the inside! It sounds downright holistic if you buy the sales pitch! And as I mentioned, it doesn't mean there's nothing to be learned or it's all untrue or anything - it's just really evil stuff veiled in some actual self-development, but with a very particular slant, which kinda nullifies any actual development you'd get from these sources.
Bottom line - sex sells. Hormonal young guys want sex, and lots of it. This group promises to turn you into a "sex god" if you go to enough seminars, watch their videos, read their books, and pay them thousands of dollars to take you on "boot camps" - basically outings where they coach you in real-time and push you to approach women as they give you critical corrections. All you will get out of this is how to treat women as objects, and how to get really good at manipulating impressionable women, and let's be honest, they're looking for dumb impressionable women, not independent developer ones, who will see through it and find you wanting, despite your "alphaness".
None of this will teach you how to have a loving, stable, and mutually beneficial long-term relationship where both people grow together and achieve something higher over time. If all you want is to have meaningless sex with as many partners as possible, well, this will teach you how to manipulate people's machines to accomplish this. But if you're even remotely interested in self-development, don't let this material fool you into acting like this is what it will do - there are FAR better books/materials out there for that, that aren't made by pathological materialists.
If you want to read the material and get familiar with it, that's your choice, but my advice for what it's worth is to do so only if you're thinking with a hammer, if you can see the "line of force" and constantly ask yourself what is this trying to teach me and why? Who is the target audience, how does one apply this, and why? Honestly, a lot of this has already been dissected and mentioned in this thread, so I won't belabor the point.
But caveat lector! It doesn't just teach you to manipulate women, it will also do its best to manipulate you, because it tries to latch on to your own programs/issues/fears/desires to get you interested.
So here's my take-away:
First of all, you may have heard of "Real Social Dynamics" without realizing what it is - here is some info, including one of its main instructors, Julien Blanc:
Disgusting sexual predator: Julien Blanc, the 'female attraction' expert, glorifies sexual violence -- Sott.net
Leading UK pick up artist says he doesn't know how Julien Blanc sleeps at night
And here's a really nice and thorough investigation someone did on Reddit about their community and exactly the kind of behavior they're teaching and promoting. If this doesn't scream "psychopaths - run away, and fast", I don't know what will:
Granted, this is not Tomasi - but they are honestly in the same "larger group" - the red pill community, and "RSD" and Tomasi are big names in this community - different groups, authors, slightly personalized slants, but largely the same idea.
The thing is, the material isn't all incorrect - like others have mentioned, if applied and practiced, it works. And there are nuggets of truth there that certainly can be enlightening, and can teach you something about yourself to some degree. You gotta have that if you want to attract a huge following and make tons of money, you gotta have your truth sandwich. But you can say the same about the Bible, or Freud, or pretty much any scizhoid declaration out there - it's gotta be based around certain truths to "blow people's minds" with biological and behavioral facts they may not have thought of before, and then when you get their attention, you layer your bullshit right in.
Red-pill stuff tries to veil itself as "self development" - in other words, the "sophisticated" red-pill groups distance themselves from typical pick-up artists by claiming that they don't teach you techniques and behaviors, but help you clean out your conditioning and basically clean out your machine by getting rid of learned thoughts and behaviors that turned you into a "beta", to help reveal the natural alpha hiding on the inside! It sounds downright holistic if you buy the sales pitch! And as I mentioned, it doesn't mean there's nothing to be learned or it's all untrue or anything - it's just really evil stuff veiled in some actual self-development, but with a very particular slant, which kinda nullifies any actual development you'd get from these sources.
Bottom line - sex sells. Hormonal young guys want sex, and lots of it. This group promises to turn you into a "sex god" if you go to enough seminars, watch their videos, read their books, and pay them thousands of dollars to take you on "boot camps" - basically outings where they coach you in real-time and push you to approach women as they give you critical corrections. All you will get out of this is how to treat women as objects, and how to get really good at manipulating impressionable women, and let's be honest, they're looking for dumb impressionable women, not independent developer ones, who will see through it and find you wanting, despite your "alphaness".
None of this will teach you how to have a loving, stable, and mutually beneficial long-term relationship where both people grow together and achieve something higher over time. If all you want is to have meaningless sex with as many partners as possible, well, this will teach you how to manipulate people's machines to accomplish this. But if you're even remotely interested in self-development, don't let this material fool you into acting like this is what it will do - there are FAR better books/materials out there for that, that aren't made by pathological materialists.
If you want to read the material and get familiar with it, that's your choice, but my advice for what it's worth is to do so only if you're thinking with a hammer, if you can see the "line of force" and constantly ask yourself what is this trying to teach me and why? Who is the target audience, how does one apply this, and why? Honestly, a lot of this has already been dissected and mentioned in this thread, so I won't belabor the point.
But caveat lector! It doesn't just teach you to manipulate women, it will also do its best to manipulate you, because it tries to latch on to your own programs/issues/fears/desires to get you interested.
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