The "Rational Male and Female"? - Biology and Programs in Relationships

[Joe]

Well, it only resonates because the person is already twisted inside by wounding.

I suppose it depends on what the definition of "wounding" is, but I think it resonates with a lot of men at the basic biological urge level, to procreate, 'sow their seed' etc. Basically, it promises a supposedly sure-fire way to get sex. Despite "all the other stuff" Tomassi and others say, THAT is what is primarily attractive to most men about his 'method' and what it is ultimately designed to achieve for men.

The old adage that the best lies come wrapped in truth applies here. There is truth in a lot of what Tomassi says, heck, one of his main points - the push to feminize men - was more or less "confirmed" in a recent session. But those truths just serve to make sure men swallow the whole 'red pill' and they don't need much encouragement because, as I said before, the overall message is to supposedly solve the problem of messy and complicated human relationships by implementing a war-like strategy - that leverages caricatures of masculinity - to ensure men remain dominant in a supposedly loving and intimate relationship.

The end result then, is that it's an attempt to convince men (again, they don't need much convincing) that they can and should discard the raw material that life provides for them to learn important 'spiritual' lessons - primarily about themselves - in favor of following the 'lower' path of 'refining' and exploiting biological impulses to essentially act like a caveman.

The thing is a lot of men don't wear this new found "masculinity" very well. They try anyway of course, but often come across as fake or caricaturish or just plain obnoxious, an object of either pity, ridicule or resentment, or a combination of all 3, to those (more sane people) around them who really have no idea what they are doing or expect to achieve.

For the men who do learn and take to the technique well, they essentially start to act like the guys in Sandra Brown's book "Women who love psychopaths", able to easily seduce women, play head games with them and then discard them. Of course, this is not what Tomassi advocates, but it is very likely at least part of what he PRODUCES. And if this is not intentional on his part (where he is a psycho himself) then it just means that his psychology degree was wasted because he clearly has no real understanding of human nature, let alone what positive masculinity is and how it should be applied in the process of self-development.

 

[Timótheos]

I can feel how Timotheos is feeling about Tomassi's work, because I've been through this same feeling myself. I think this is how a lot of men are feeling at present, now that they're being exposed to ideas of evolutionary biology and psychology. It's liberating and exciting.]

You're right T.C., I was too excited and uncritical in my assessment. Although I found some of the information was useful to me personally, I think I over-identified with the material because of a personal situation I'm currently experiencing, which blinded me to the more pathological elements. I won't be recommending it to anyone anymore.

 

[Cosmos]

Red-pill stuff tries to veil itself as "self development" - in other words, the "sophisticated" red-pill groups distance themselves from typical pick-up artists by claiming that they don't teach you techniques and behaviors, but help you clean out your conditioning and basically clean out your machine by getting rid of learned thoughts and behaviors that turned you into a "beta", to help reveal the natural alpha hiding on the inside! It sounds downright holistic if you buy the sales pitch! And as I mentioned, it doesn't mean there's nothing to be learned or it's all untrue or anything - it's just really evil stuff veiled in some actual self-development, but with a very particular slant, which kinda nullifies any actual development you'd get from these sources.

You could call it a devilishly sneaky and seductive lure for young man (and not only young man I'm afraid), especially in this day and age. It is also very interesting that the community calls itself Red Pillers, alluding to the Matrix Movies I guess. Obviously, if you think what is in the Matrix series has anything to do with what Tomassi and gang promote, you seriously have missed the whole point of the movies, which is spiritual in essence, to choose between the path of knowledge (red pill) and the path of ignorance (blue pill).

There are seriously many man out there now it seems, who truly think that what the Matrix was all about, was this, thanks to Tomassi and Co!? Thinking about it more, this is in fact a good way to lure people away from seeking any higher values and into the abyss of ignorance and plain inhumanity instead. Creepy.

 

[ScioAgapeOmnis]

You're right T.C., I was too excited and uncritical in my assessment. Although I found some of the information was useful to me personally, I think I over-identified with the material because of a personal situation I'm currently experiencing, which blinded me to the more pathological elements. I won't be recommending it to anyone anymore.

That’s my biggest concern with it - sex and relationships are such a universal lesson and struggle that it’s an incredibly easy target. Promise to help people in those areas, and you already got many people’s undivided attention. It’s such a powerful hook - I mean hell, like 90% of music is about sex and relationships and “love”, almost all movies feature them, it’s about as universal an interest as it gets. Anyone remember “Men are from Mars, Wonen are from Venus” books and video lectures? This why Romeo and Juliet is the most famous of all Shakespeare’s plays.

The potential for good sex, for loving companionship, for eliminating loneliness and lifelong friendship and human connection - I mean, you can’t tap into a more fundamental and universal thing if you tried.

Which makes this stuff particularly dangerous when it’s done by those who don’t have or acknowledge anything higher about themselves and human interaction and the universe. I think people like JP are much more sane and balanced in this regard. And I get that he doesn’t appeal to the less intellectual men, but to be honest, the red pill groups are not a suitable “dumbing down” of the material - they distort it, and lead people into a different direction with the guise of empowering men.

 

[Joe]

(real name Owen Cook), and he founded one of the most prolific "red pill" companies called "Real Social Dynamics"

I've watched a few videos made by this guy. He's semi-autistic and I'd say slightly schizoid, he's also a very good actor, talker, with no sense of shame apparently. This guy can effortlessly approach women and incessantly talk to them, being funny, and 'crazy', both shocking and disarming and passive from one moment to the next.

Basically, he deliberately plays the role of a super confident/'interesting/whacky/funny/ guy lavishing all his attention on a girl. Compared to the average somewhat insecure guy, he's stands waaay out, and as result 'get the girl'. He has multiple videos 'in the field' (on the street or in bars at night) of him using this technique on women and it seems to work pretty well, he invariably either gets their number or kisses them. By the way, he looks a bit like a ginger Elmer Fudd with a beard. As such, he's a great example to other guys that you don't have to be a model to get the ladies, it's all about the 'game'.

So he is no doubt very entertaining for women who he just hits on. The ones that go home with him and have second thoughts might not be so entertained. By teaching so many men his 'art', he poses a real danger to (at least some) women.

 

[fabric]

Of course, this is not what Tomassi advocates, but it is very likely at least part of what he PRODUCES. And if this is not intentional on his part (where he is a psycho himself) then it just means that his psychology degree was wasted because he clearly has no real understanding of human nature, let alone what positive masculinity is and how it should be applied in the process of self-development.

Yes – by their fruits ye shall know them. I had mulled over sharing Tomassi’s books with a couple of friends but I was hesitant to do so exactly because "the average person cannot defend their minds against ponerological influences of this type" (to quote Laura). I think a very salient point to keep in mind.

I’m quite certain that they haven’t done the requisite reading or understanding of how these things work to not get taken in by the pathological elements of the book and didn’t want to contribute to the possibility that they might adopt this very STS mode of being. It effectively turns one’s relationship into a zero-sum game and the price it asks is the subjugation of the other.

Having read all of them, the few good things can actually be readily found elsewhere, and from more credible sources without the 'manosphere' slant to it and his distortions.

 

[genero81]

You could call it a devilishly sneaky and seductive lure for young man (and not only young man I'm afraid), especially in this day and age. It is also very interesting that the community calls itself Red Pillers, alluding to the Matrix Movies I guess. Obviously, if you think what is in the Matrix series has anything to do with what Tomassi and gang promote, you seriously have missed the whole point of the movies, which is spiritual in essence, to choose between the path of knowledge (red pill) and the path of ignorance (blue pill).

Right! A pathological twist to the concept of taking the 'red pill.' The equivalent is possibly an Atheist saying that he's taken the 'red pill' and come to terms with the fact that it's all meaningless, just a product of random mutations and natural selection. There's nothing higher etc.

 

[ScioAgapeOmnis]

I've watched a few videos made by this guy. He's semi-autistic and I'd say slightly schizoid, he's also a very good actor, talker, with no sense of shame apparently. This guy can effortlessly approach women and incessantly talk to them, being funny, and 'crazy', both shocking and disarming and passive from one moment to the next.

Basically, he deliberately plays the role of a super confident/'interesting/whacky/funny/ guy lavishing all his attention on a girl. Compared to the average somewhat insecure guy, he's stands waaay out, and as result 'get the girl'. He has multiple videos 'in the field' (on the street or in bars at night) of him using this technique on women and it seems to work pretty well, he invariably either gets their number or kisses them. By the way, he looks a bit like a ginger Elmer Fudd with a beard. As such, he's a great example to other guys that you don't have to be a model to get the ladies, it's all about the 'game'.

So he is no doubt very entertaining for women who he just hits on. The ones that go home with him and have second thoughts might not be so entertained. By teaching so many men his 'art', he poses a real danger to (at least some) women.

And that's the thing - the differences between Tomassi and groups like RSD are very minimal, if any, one just expands on the other really. So people who read Tomassi won't have any reason to not move on to the other stuff, and before they know it, they're in the mud. Someone like JP is different enough, and has a higher aim which is focused on love and respect for yourself and your potential partners, to draw a pretty distinct line between his material and theirs. Someone like Scottie can read Tomassi and critically correct and discard things because of a magnetic center that grounds him in what he knows is right and true. Some random guy who has done 0 self development, is young and immature, and has no experience interacting with others who have done work on themselves, well, that's a whole different effect, and I see it as mostly negative. He'd later have to do work to actually undo the damage to his psyche, if he internalizes their worldview.

 

[Windmill knight]

And here's a really nice and thorough investigation someone did on Reddit about their community and exactly the kind of behavior they're teaching and promoting. If this doesn't scream "psychopaths - run away, and fast", I don't know what will:

That was horrible! Those people should be in jail!

 

[Renaissance]

Just wanted to quote what Laura wrote in the Women Who Love Psychopaths thread almost exactly 10 years ago. I remember the message having a big impact on me at the time, and I think it's a needed message in this thread... and could be particularly helpful for those who got pulled into Tomassi's snares:

You see, in reading "Women Who Love Psychopaths," I realized that the things that a psychopath does, the things that WORK in baiting, capturing, bonding women are obviously caricatures of things that ought to be manifested in positive ways. For example: a psychopath may use his eyes and words to entrance and bait a woman to his bed where he "bonds" with her via "super sex." He uses tender, romantic words, gestures, promises, etc etc.

On the other hand, normal guys (and I'll talk about guys here since most psychopaths are male) generally do not feel comfortable gazing into the eyes of their beloved, speaking romantic words, performing wildly romantic gestures and certainly, most men are sexually inhibited or downright juvenile in their sexual behavior. They also do not see sex as it ought to be seen, as one of the best opportunities for GIVING they have in their daily lives.

But a psychopath observes his prey, does all the things that he has learned will capture her, and then he bends her to his evil will.

Why don't normal men observe their intended - not as prey, but as the object of devotion and giving? Why don't they learn everything about her, what she is, what she wants, what she needs, and then give it to her as an act of love?

Well, that's one thing that occurs to me. And the reason I bring it up is, as I said, because the interaction between the psychopath and his prey is a caricature of what seems to be an STO practice of great antiquity that we have completely lost.

Much of what this forum is about is to understand the often unconscious and manipulative drives of human nature, and to become conscious of them. It seems Tomassi's message also lends toward this as well, however, there is a very important distinction. We try to become aware of these drives in order to not to be dominated by them, and hopefully reduce our own suffering as well as the unnecessary suffering we might cause to others. I gather that Tomoassi is basically advocating men become conscious of these drives in order to USE them and to dominate others, specifically women. His 'methods' study these drives in women, and instead of understanding the destructive elements of these drives within men as well, it appears that he's actually teaching men to embrace them!

It's not difficult to imagine that the men who have practiced such 'techniques' on women have very likely left a trail of destruction/pain in their paths. Even for those who don't do such 'practicing', the victim mentality is enough to stop any kind of productive self reflection dead in its tracks. I'd also expect that these most of these guys don't even recognize what they've done since embracing 'the dark side' essentially means that they've had to tune out any signals of conscience (for those guys who have seeds of conscience to begin with). And it's like we as flawed humans already do these types of things enough!

 

[BobDylan]

Wow, amazing... the twists and turns of this story. Who would have guessed?

The 'manosphere' barely existed 10 years ago, so why has it grown to the level it has right now (and it's only growing and splintering into even more factions!)? I would say most young men in western countries living within highly populated centres would have come across it in one form or another. The main actors in this field are people with huge followings on social media, there are seminars / talks in every big city and even many towns, multiple networks divided into various geographic regions, apps, lots and lots of books which you can find on amazon and your local book store etc etc. I personally would hazard the guess that part of why it has grown so big is because there is obviously a market for it.... young (western) men are so hungry, so starved of something (of what?) that they are flocking in droves to these materials / consuming it on social media, paying for instructors / attending seminars / buying books, WHY?

It's only getting bigger / more prominent so there must be a reason why. Perhaps something to do with the reality young men are experiencing? Maleness is fast becoming a crime.... take this for example

Why don't normal men observe their intended - not as prey, but as the object of devotion and giving? Why don't they learn everything about her, what she is, what she wants, what she needs, and then give it to her as an act of love?

The first thing that popped into my mind, as a man in this day and age is the above hovers quite closely to whichever man is doing the above being accused of being a stalker no matter how noble their intentions are i.e. as described above.

 

[Joe]

The first thing that popped into my mind, as a man in this day and age is the above hovers quite closely to whichever man is doing the above being accused of being a stalker no matter how noble their intentions are i.e. as described above.

Yeah, well, you'd obviously have to be a bit 'ninja' about it.

 

[BobDylan]

Yeah, well, you'd obviously have to be a bit 'ninja' about it.

Lol, there's a movie in there somewhere, a tragic comedy. Boy loves girl, boy finds out everything about girl, boy tries to charm girl, girl freaks out boy knows so much about her whilst she never told him much of anything, boy pleads innocence and noble intent, chaos ensues.

 

[3DStudent]

The thread took an interesting turn and I think we learned more from this thread overall than whatever content is in the books. I felt a bit cautious as Adaryn was in the beginning. But seeing some of the recommendations I bought the second book. I didn't read it yet, so I'm glad for that.

My suspicion I don't think was a gut feeling, but the effect of reading some of his blog posts had on me. Basically, after reading some of his posts, I went off on a controlling women fantasy. And during that I had a very loud and pronounced left ear ring, as if to say, "Gotcha!" So that snapped me out of it and seemed to indicate the flavor of what he promotes.

Sometimes I will ask myself the question, "Who am I?" And it's the same as, "What am I doing?" or "Am I doing the right thing?" I found myself asking that this past week a few times. Maybe I was just feeling a bit down or stressed, but I wonder if it was my subconscious wondering about some of the concepts I may have picked up from this material. So I will have to purge them and replace them with actual healthy masculine concepts. Because this is just another battlefield and there are healthier sources for being authentic men and women.

 

[Adaryn]

The first thing that popped into my mind, as a man in this day and age is the above hovers quite closely to whichever man is doing the above being accused of being a stalker no matter how noble their intentions are i.e. as described above.

Who said it was to be done covertly? Isn't the best way to learn everything about someone you like - what they are, what they want, what they need… - to simply talk to them, engage with them, or even talk to their friends to learn more about them? And yeah, observe them, but in the context of face-to-face interactions… That's how I understand it anyway. If anyone (hello, radical feminists?) finds THAT creepy and stalker-like, then I don't know what to say…