The "Rational Male and Female"? - Biology and Programs in Relationships

Alana

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In the following video, Peterson talks a bit about the actual studies on Hypergamy and later on, he expresses what he thinks of the men who complain on various sites online about women (starts at about 1 hour and 50 minutes, lasts about 15-20 minutes):


 

Odyssey

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Chasing women is really a stupid pasttime. You could use your time to study interesting things, tinker, enjoy some fascinating hobbies, build your character and so on. Women will enter the picture eventually, sooner or later, no need to chase 'em. And who knows, maybe, because you didn't waste the first half of your life trying to seduce women, you might actually end up as a filthy-rich tech entrepreneur, a famous author or a grand chess-master. And then you will laugh at all those "cool guys" that got all the chicks at school and spent all their energy on ape-like girl-chasing.
Indeed. This goes for both men and women. All that energy spent chasing the 'love drug' -- which is not much different than any other drug but is more socially acceptable -- could be used to develop one's potential and being so if, or when, a relationship opportunity presents itself you'd make a better partner. This shouldn't be the only reason to develop yourself, of course. It should be done because it makes your life better and if you're less of a screw up then society is better off. And fer god's sake, if you're gonna be stupid and sow some oats practice birth control. If you want to play in the dirt do it on your own. Don't bring a baby into it and mess up two lives.
 

Andi

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I think that everyone who has been reading/participating in this thread should most definitely read the "Darwin's Black Box" thread.
It seems like you can download the pdf free and legally from archive.org

_https://archive.org/details/MichaelBeheDarwinsBlackBox

Added: it's always best to support the author by buying it but in case you have financial problems you can always buy it afterwards if you like the book.
 
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Zar

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Wow this thread took quite the turn. Reading about this movement and the excerpts from Tomassi reminded me of RSD all over again. It's the same twisted approach. I've gotten involved with RSD a long time ago and I've seen many young boys become ponerized, and subsequently I've heard stories of ex-girlfriends being psychologically damaged by what these kids did(and seen it myself). I didn't know much back then but I'm glad some part of me could not go through with these approaches, else my sanity pay the price.
 

Chu

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This goes for both men and women. All that energy spent chasing the 'love drug' -- which is not much different than any other drug but is more socially acceptable -- could be used to develop one's potential and being so if, or when, a relationship opportunity presents itself you'd make a better partner. This shouldn't be the only reason to develop yourself, of course. It should be done because it makes your life better and if you're less of a screw up then society is better off.
Amen. I wish I had been wise, sensible, rational, much less of a basket case and more generous many years ago, thus able to apply knowledge/advice like the above very early on. That is something to advice young people too, although unfortunately, very few in their 20s ever listened, and even less would listen today.

Good call, Adaryn, on spotting the parallels between Sheridan and Tomassi. It also reminds me of some articles that have been around promoting "psychopathic traits" as a good thing, instead of making the difference between a genuinely empathic but assertive and confident person, and a psychopath. For example: The Pros to Being a Psychopath | Science | Smithsonian

“Psychopath” is a term that gets thrown about a lot in our culture. Are psychopaths misunderstood?

It’s true, no sooner is the word “psychopath” out than images of your classic psychopathic killers like Ted Bundy and Jeffrey Dahmer and a whole kind of discreditable raft of senior politicians come kind of creeping across our minds. But actually, being a psychopath doesn’t mean that you’re a criminal. Not by default, anyway. It doesn’t mean that you’re a serial killer, either.

One of the reasons why I wrote the book in the first place was to debunk two deep-seated myths that the general public have about psychopaths. Firstly, that they’re either all “mad or bad.” And secondly, that psychopathy is an all-or-nothing thing, that you’re either a psychopath or you’re not.

What is a psychopath, anyway?

When psychologists talk about psychopaths, what we’re referring to are people who have a distinct set of personality characteristics, which include things like ruthlessness, fearlessness, mental toughness, charm, persuasiveness and a lack of conscience and empathy. Imagine that you tick the box for all of those characteristics. You also happen to be violent and stupid. It’s not going to be long before you smack a bottle over someone’s head in a bar and get locked up for a long time in prison. But if you tick the box for all of those characteristics, and you happen to be intelligent and not naturally violent, then it’s a different story altogether. Then you’re more likely to make a killing in the market rather than anywhere else.

How are these psychopathic traits particularly useful in modern society?

Psychopaths are assertive. Psychopaths don’t procrastinate. Psychopaths tend to focus on the positive. Psychopaths don’t take things personally; they don’t beat themselves up if things go wrong, even if they’re to blame. And they’re pretty cool under pressure. Those kinds of characteristics aren’t just important in the business arena, but also in everyday life.

The key here is keeping it in context. Let’s think of psychopathic traits—ruthlessness, toughness, charm, focus—as the dials on a [recording] studio deck. If you were to turn all of those dials up to max, then you’re going to overload the circuit. You’re going to wind up getting 30 years inside or the electric chair or something like that. But if you have some of them up high and some of them down low, depending on the context, in certain endeavors, certain professions, you are going to be predisposed to great success. The key is to be able to turn them back down again.

You’ve found that some professions rate higher than others when it comes to psychopathic traits. Which jobs attract psychopaths?

I ran a survey in 2011, “The Great British Psychopath Survey,” in which I got people to fill out a questionnaire online to find out how psychopathic they were. I also got people to enter their occupations, what they did for a living, and how much money they earned over the course of a year. We found a whole range of professions cropping up—no serial killers among them, although no one would admit to it. The results made very interesting reading, especially if you’re partial to a sermon or two on a Sunday, because the clergy cropped up there at number eight. You had the usual suspects at the top; you had your CEOs, lawyers, media—TV and radio. Journalists were a bit down the list. We also had civil servants. There were several police officers, actually, so as opposed to being criminals, some psychopaths are actually out there locking other people up. Any situation where you’ve a got a power structure, a hierarchy, the ability to manipulate or wield control over people, you get psychopaths doing very well.


What would be a bad career choice for a psychopath? Which professions scored low?

No real surprises, actually. There were craftsmen, care workers. Nurses were in there. Accountants were pretty low on psychopathy. One of the interesting ones: doctors. Doctors were low on psychopathy, but surgeons were actually in the top ten, so there’s kind of a dividing line between surgeons and doctors.


Can psychopaths have a positive impact on society, as opposed to just using their advantages to get ahead?

I’ve interviewed a lot of special forces troops, especially the British Special Air Service. They’re like Navy Seals. That’s a very good example of people who are pretty high on those psychopathic traits who are actually in a perfect occupation. Also, I interview in the book a top neurosurgeon—this was a surgeon who takes on operations that are especially risky—who said to me, “The most important thing when you’re conducting a dangerous operation, a risky operation, is you’ve got to be very cool under pressure, you’ve got to be focused. You can’t have too much empathy for the person that you’re operating on, because you wouldn’t be able to conduct that operation.” Surgeons do very nasty things to people when they’re on the operating table. If things do go wrong, the most important facet in a surgeon’s arsenal is decisiveness. You cannot freeze.

You noted in the book that you’re not a psychopath yourself. Despite my profession, I scored pretty low on your survey as well. Can “normals” like you and me learn to develop these psychopathic traits, even if we don’t have them naturally?

Absolutely. Normal people can work out their psychopath muscles. It’s kind of like going to the gym in a way, to develop these attributes. It’s just like training.

Psychopaths don’t think, should I do this or shouldn’t I do this? They just go ahead and do stuff. So next time you find yourself putting off that chore or filing that report or something, unchain your inner psychopath and ask yourself this: “Since when did I need to feel like something in order to do it?”


Another way you can take a leaf out of a psychopath’s book: Psychopaths are very reward-driven. If they see a benefit in something, they zone in on it and they go for it 100 percent. Let’s take an example of someone who is kind of scared of putting in for a raise at work. You might be scared about what the boss might think of you. You might think if you’d don’t get it you’re going to get fired. Forget it. Cut all that stuff off. “Psychopath up,” and overwhelm your negative feelings by concentrating on the benefits of getting it. The bottom line here is, a bit of localized psychopathy is good for all of us.

You just came back to England this week from the Himalayas. Did that trip have anything to do with your research into psychopaths?

I was running a rather odd study over there. Psychopaths and Buddhists, in terms of their performance in the lab, have certain characteristics in common. They’re good at living in the present. They’re mindful. Both are calm under pressure. They focus on the positive. But also, both are good at mind reading. They’re very good at picking up on micro-expressions, basically lightning-fast changes in facial scenery; our brain downloads onto the muscles of our face before it decides on the real picture that it wants to project to the world. These micro-expressions are invisible to most of our naked eyes. But it seems that expert Buddhist meditators are able to pick them up, probably because they are able to slow down their perception. There’s a recent study that seems to show that psychopaths are also good at picking up on micro-expressions. We don’t really know the reason for that, but it could be that psychopaths might spend more time just studying us.

What I did was I hot-footed it over the mountains of Northern India on the Tibet border with a laptop. On the laptop were 20 “pleader videos”—clips of press conferences organized by the police where you’ve got folks pleading with the general public for information as to loved ones who’ve gone missing. We know that 10 of these guys have actually done the deed themselves, and 10 people are genuine pleaders. I put them on a laptop, basically took them to the mountains, caves and remote cabins of these expert Buddhist meditator monks in the high Himalayas, and got them to tell me which of the 20 were false and which were true. I’ll be testing psychopaths very shortly, and I am going to see who gets more out of 20. Is it the Buddhist monks, or is it the psychopaths?

It was an epic journey. If you don’t like heights and you have a nervous disposition—we’re talking about foot-width edges, thousand-meter drops. Pretty dicey. I mean, you have to be a bit of a psychopath to get to these guys.
There were worse ones but I can't seem to find them right now. And some of that advice is what these feminists and authors like Tomassi are saying to men and women. Just replace the word "psychopath" with "a real man/woman", and there you have it. Yikes!
 

Pashalis

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Well, that's a bit overly dramatic, but I get your point. First, not every person is, is going to be or should be Putin or JP. I won't include the autistic RSD idiot in that grouping for obvious reasons.
I agree, suggesting that Peterson or Putin have anything at all in common on any fundamental deep level with the likes of Tomassi and Co. is obviously not something that seems to be the case, in any way you look at it. We are talking about two completely different universes here. The former two seem to strive for perfection in the STO sense while the latter persons strive towards the exact opposite.

And on that note, if anyone has some good non-pathological sources (preferably books, as they tend to go deeper) to recommend regarding human male-female dynamics and biological/evolutionary programs regarding such interactions (particularly the feminine side of things), I for one would like to know. I feel that most of my life I was way too naive about this issue, and I still have gaps in my knowledge about it, which is why I was finding the Tomassi ideas interesting. I wasn't looking into becoming a 'PUA', nor did I believe that biology-evolution were the sole forces behind women's behavior, but I thought some of his concepts could fill gaps.

For example, Oxajil earlier recommended 'Intimate Relationships' by Miller and Perlman. Is it worth reading the whole book? Any other good ones out there?
While it isn't exactly about woman/man relationships per se, I think the "Not Nice" book mentioned here, can go a long way in understanding what most if not all normal males as well as females have to deal with on a fundamental basis to one extent or the other. In fact, I think the issues brought up there, if not dealt with, might be one of the major sources of misunderstandings and frictions, not only between sexes but between people in general.

I guess the best solution for men and women is to not make finding a relationship their primary goal in life. Rather do what you gotta do and if you do the right thing, the right person might just pop when least expected.
I couldn't agree more.
 

Laura

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Amen brother! And on that note, if anyone has some good non-pathological sources (preferably books, as they tend to go deeper) to recommend regarding human male-female dynamics and biological/evolutionary programs regarding such interactions (particularly the feminine side of things), I for one would like to know. I feel that most of my life I was way too naive about this issue, and I still have gaps in my knowledge about it, which is why I was finding the Tomassi ideas interesting. I wasn't looking into becoming a 'PUA', nor did I believe that biology-evolution were the sole forces behind women's behavior, but I thought some of his concepts could fill gaps.

For example, Oxajil earlier recommended 'Intimate Relationships' by Miller and Perlman. Is it worth reading the whole book? Any other good ones out there?
Why are you even worrying about relationships? Read these two posts:

Chasing women is really a stupid pasttime. You could use your time to study interesting things, tinker, enjoy some fascinating hobbies, build your character and so on. Women will enter the picture eventually, sooner or later, no need to chase 'em. And who knows, maybe, because you didn't waste the first half of your life trying to seduce women, you might actually end up as a filthy-rich tech entrepreneur, a famous author or a grand chess-master. And then you will laugh at all those "cool guys" that got all the chicks at school and spent all their energy on ape-like girl-chasing.
Indeed. This goes for both men and women. All that energy spent chasing the 'love drug' -- which is not much different than any other drug but is more socially acceptable -- could be used to develop one's potential and being so if, or when, a relationship opportunity presents itself you'd make a better partner. This shouldn't be the only reason to develop yourself, of course. It should be done because it makes your life better and if you're less of a screw up then society is better off. And fer god's sake, if you're gonna be stupid and sow some oats practice birth control. If you want to play in the dirt do it on your own. Don't bring a baby into it and mess up two lives.
 

Tuatha de Danaan

Jedi Master
So glad I don't have to read any more of it. Wasn't enjoying it and I still feel NOT NICE by Dr .Aziz Gazipura would help a lot of boys & girls but not for what Tomassi seems to be selling.. Pulling and Quick Fix ideas. NOT NICE covers a range of insecurities and possible remedies which involve conscious effort. This book also makes you realise that it's not just you that has problems but everyone else suffers the same.
t
 

Pashalis

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So glad I don't have to read any more of it. Wasn't enjoying it and I still feel NOT NICE by Dr .Aziz Gazipura would help a lot of boys & girls but not for what Tomassi seems to be selling.. Pulling and Quick Fix ideas. NOT NICE covers a range of insecurities and possible remedies which involve conscious effort. This book also makes you realise that it's not just you that has problems but everyone else suffers the same.
t
Indeed!
 

Laura

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So glad I don't have to read any more of it. Wasn't enjoying it and I still feel NOT NICE by Dr .Aziz Gazipura would help a lot of boys & girls but not for what Tomassi seems to be selling.. Pulling and Quick Fix ideas. NOT NICE covers a range of insecurities and possible remedies which involve conscious effort. This book also makes you realise that it's not just you that has problems but everyone else suffers the same.
t
Indeed, most problems with relationships usually turn out to be giant issues of internal considering and precious little external considering.
 

Windmill knight

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Why are you even worrying about relationships? Read these two posts:
I apologize, I know this has been suggested in the past in the forum and to me directly as well. :-[ The fact is that I can 'not worry' about relationships for some time, but as I have discovered, I cannot do it indefinitely. Eventually the idea will come back. If I just push it out of my mind, I'll end having dreams at night about it. I think I can live single indefinitely, but not to worry nor want it indefinitely is a different story. And if I'm honest with myself, I do want, some day, to have a normal, 'good enough', long term relationship. I know some people really don't want it, or really don't mind if they never have it, but I haven't been able to be one of those. I'm just not that strong nor wise, I'm sorry.
 

Starshine

Jedi Master
Thanks, everyone for this long discussion and different outputs. It was kind of an emotional roller coaster, and Laura's point of view definitely changed the course of it all.

That's an important point I think. I had a similar reaction when watching videos and reading articles on the topic (including Tomassi). There's a kind of weird attraction, it quickly become so compelling, but not in a good way, more like an addiction, you can almost feel yourself getting 'hooked' if you pay attention. That kind of experience is very useful to remember and use to alert yourself any time you feel something similar again.
This roller coaster was exactly between revulsion and attraction. It's like, ew, did I miss something about masculinity that was as big as the nose in the middle of the face? Then I thought, I'm reading Peterson's 12 rules right now, which is a fantastic book I can recommend to anyone but more specifically younger males in search of meaning, what else is there to know apart from what Peterson promotes in terms of attitude to become a better person?
I even went through all my online photos to analyze my attitude and see what transpired from the Alpha:Beta frame. Which was funny in itself, but it kind of brought unnecessary questions to the table.

I do not like crass vocabulary either, and as Adaryn, it reminded me of the French Alain Soral, which also has some sort of psychological problem in relation to power and women.
I guess it's part of their marketing strategies or just inherent to them.

It is really funny though, as seduction was one of my main interest when I was 16/17 years old. I realized the power of the Internet through it! My curiosity was deeply picked, I was learning how to be attractive, what women liked and the profound gap I had to pass to become a man who can approach a woman confidently. I was that virgin, playing video games and watching porn. This community is far from recent, I spent a lot of time digging through the forums and PUA strategies, reading testimonies, learning the vocabulary (and what a rich and objectifying vocabulary!), the attitude, what to do and how to act to become attractive. I lived THROUGH some of the most influential ones of the time, in France, it was a small niche.
I saw that becoming a business, with bootcamps and relookings, when in the beginning, it was just forums where men shared their tactics and the needed attitude. I learned a lot.

Meanwhile, I was confronted with my own lack of confidence to act as such. I was fascinated by those guys and discovered 'the Principle of Lucifer' by Howard Bloom through it, an eye-opener on the inherent violence in Nature. I was really harsh on myself at that time, circling a lot through culpability, shame, blame, self-consciousness. Self-importance and internal considering ruling.
Only when I forgot all about it did I begin to become attractive. I then understood the principles work. Something as simple as 'You just have to be radiant to be attractive, and you have to have some goals apart from having sex.' Duh.

I was already at that time thinking something was off. The determination needed to be rejected a hundred times to get a single number, I admired. I wasn't that hungry, or my Perfectionist/Control/shame personality stopped me from beginning anything. On the forums, I saw many getting out of their comfort zone, I saw the bravery in it. Some were pathological, even though I had no vocabulary to describe it, I, for one, did not see women as 'sluts' as Tomassi would say, and never really reconciled the idea of playing with multiple girls at the same time. So much lies, how can you be comfortable with that?

I also saw some testimonies of those guys, who, in the end, realized they just had superficial relationships with no real bondings, just a busy datebook to fulfill, and started to reflect on what they created and the awful loneliness it brought into their lives.

I was young, though I had the capacity to understand that it is just how it is, how it works and that I had to adapt even though I had a long way ahead. What works, works. Get better and the rest will follow. Never did it cross my mind to turn into pure resentment towards women.
How can you come to that conclusion? Some guys seem born with it, probably their relationship with their mother was cold as hell. I watched porn a lot, still never liked humiliation. That's kind of the same thing. The twisted thoughts patterns must already be ingrained earlier and it might be a catalyst for worse after, maybe. I don't know, it troubles me. It seems like they don't see an actual human being but just an object to qualify and play with.

Anyway, it is exactly the same feeling of attraction/revulsion I had when I first encountered this type of material 13 years ago. It is potentially troubling and it's better to just have an aim and stay focused, have a life, smile and keep going.

People who see themselves as victims almost never have any hope of true happiness and fulfillment. It's all about blaming others for one's own failings; it is the "Criminal Mind" in action at a sub-criminal scale.
This is so true. That's a quote I will want to see often.
 

Oxajil

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@Windmill knight The book I mentioned was mandatory reading for Psychology students. I thought it was interesting and reread some parts later on. The newest edition is very expensive though. It sure is different than Tomassi's work and based on much research! But I only found some parts helpful. I agree with Laura, and what luc and Odyssey wrote. Personally, I would say that the recommended reading provided here would be very helpful in the way of learning how the mind works, etc., which applied could lead to healthy relationships with others.

Regarding Tomassi's work, I too was doubtful about it. I remember reading a blog post by him about which pictures were 'bad' and which were 'good'. Apparently, if a guy kisses his girlfriend on the cheek for a picture, it was a big 'no no', which I thought was so silly that it made me laugh. Generally, his way of seeing life and women and relationships seemed very materialistic to me and devoid of conscience. I did want to give it a chance, but seeing things more clearly now, I can focus my energies on something else. FWIW.
 

ScioAgapeOmnis

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I apologize, I know this has been suggested in the past in the forum and to me directly as well. :-[ The fact is that I can 'not worry' about relationships for some time, but as I have discovered, I cannot do it indefinitely. Eventually the idea will come back. If I just push it out of my mind, I'll end having dreams at night about it. I think I can live single indefinitely, but not to worry nor want it indefinitely is a different story. And if I'm honest with myself, I do want, some day, to have a normal, 'good enough', long term relationship. I know some people really don't want it, or really don't mind if they never have it, but I haven't been able to be one of those. I'm just not that strong nor wise, I'm sorry.
Hey WK, first of all I think you’re selling yourself short. I think there's nothing wrong with wanting love and companionship, to have a "special someone" to share your life with. I don't think anyone is saying you should be a recluse or forget it entirely. The way I understood Laura's question, the keyword there is "worry". You seem focused on the outcome, or of not achieving it, but that's like focusing on getting a Nobel prize in physics. I figure if you're just doing physics, and love doing it and get really good at it, it may be a natural consequence that happens as a result.

So in my mind, I'm thinking it's kinda like this - you work on yourself, and as part of that, you network. You meet people, get to know them, develop friendships with like-minded people, and just be involved with life. At some point you may find yourself developing an extra special connection with someone, just by happenstance of you being "involved with life" so to speak. But of course that means you can't just isolate yourself either and avoid developing working and friendly relationships with people at all - but if you're part of a network, and join projects, and do things like that - then isolation shouldn't be happening.

At the same time, you can just be part of the community in your local area as well - same thing applies - join projects, maybe hobbies that involve other people, and just get to know people and get a sense of who they are and where they're going. And really give yourself to life and to your comrades with sincerity, without anticipating an outcome or return, just because it's an enjoyable enterprise. I think that would create ample opportunities for something to develop, if and when it makes sense.

Fantasizing about it, wishing for it, craving it, obsessing over it, or trying to manipulate a situation to force it - I find those things to be counterproductive, so I agree that the goal should be to "let go", but also don't make it impossible to ever happen either by isolation. If you have issues just making acquaintances, friends, or just having genuine interactions with people in context of some common goal or something, then this is something to work on perhaps - I don't know your personal stumbling blocks, if any.

Hope that helps, sorry if it's something you already knew, just thought you could use a friendly reminder :)
 
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