The "Rational Male and Female"? - Biology and Programs in Relationships

[Adaryn]

Hi WK,

It's only human to long for companionship and real intimacy. So I don't think there's a need to apologize for expressing what is a perfectly natural and understandable need.

However, as I wrote in another thread, I think that it's quite common for people who are single to want a relationship and for people who are in a relationship to want to be single (it sounds a bit simplistic and caricatural, but you get the gist). We're never happy with what we have. Plus, when we never experienced something (like a satisfying and emotionally fulfilling relationship), we often have unrealistic fantasies about it. The reality of marital life (even between compatible individuals/good matches) is often less than glorious.
So, even if you eventually get what you want (a "normal, good enough" relationship), chances are that when you're in the middle of it, when you're faced with all the challenges that it entails, you might realize it's not that great after all. It might not even be particularly emotionally fulfilling. It might feel like the actual "rewards" weren't worth the investment. And you might long for solitude again… thinking it was not so bad, all things considered.
Even to have a functioning, mildly satisfying relationship requires a lot of work and effort, external consideration and so on and so forth. You're lucky if, after a lot of struggling (to understand each other, to understand what it is the other really needs, to constantly be honest with each other, to give to the other, etc.), you manage to achieve that.
In a sense, many among those who are single - though it might feel lonely and frustrating sometimes - are probably having it way easier (and are probably "happier") than the vast majority of people who are struggling in the middle of a relationship (and I'd say most relationships involve a lot of struggling)… After all, as wrote French playwright Sacha Guitry: "Le mariage, c'est résoudre à deux les problèmes qu'on n'aurait pas eus tout seul." However beautiful and wonderful it may appear from the outside, the reality of daily life as a couple is more often "meh" than "wow". Of course, if you (as a couple) really make efforts and constantly work on yourselves and your relationship, a deeper connection, a real love might grow… but even then, there's no guarantee. Sometimes people just don't match, however hard they try to make it work.

Sure, there's also that thing that a lot of people yearn for and which we call 'The One' - THE relationship with THAT special someone (soulmate) where there's a genuine soul connection (more than just "we're attracted to each other, we like each other, she's nice, he's fun, we're more or less colinear… let's get together"). But that is probably exceptionally rare.
And even then, if you don't do something useful with it - if the only goal/focus is the relationship - it won't go very far and will probably disintegrate over time (as Laura pointed out a couple of times, in other threads).
If Daddy/Mama Universe sees fit to unite, or reunite, 2 souls because together they can contribute to something / give something back to the Universe, He (or She… I hope I'm not misgendering ) will find a way to bring those 2 souls together, without them even trying. It'll just happen 'naturally'. Things will unfold as they were meant to unfold… and then, the real work/Work will begin. Of course, as pointed out already, you have to be ready first. And you have to be willing to accept that you might never be ready in this lifetime.

Well, I hope that was not too depressing.

Maybe something you could try: whenever you feel down, lonely, start to 'worry' about relationships and don't know how to deal with those feelings, you can find ways to feed the part of you who is "yearning' and 'worrying', by engaging in positive dissociation: like reading quality novels or watching "romance" movies/series (there's a good list of British/BBC dramas*** in the Movies section)… not to wallow in your suffering or drift into lalaland, of course, but to learn about what makes a fulfilling and successful relationship (or the contrary: an unhappy and destructive one). You can observe the characters, their qualities, their flaws, how they interact, the dynamics which underlies their relationship, how they got through challenges and hardships, or conversely, how and why they failed. Plus, if you watch such movies with friends, you can discuss them together, share your impressions and have great conversations, which can only be good for you in the end, because it'll increase your connection to your friends, and help ease your feelings of loneliness/your worrying.

*** Another excellent series I'd like to suggest: The Crown (which, despite being about the Queen of England, depicts the struggles of marital life - for most people anyway - in a rather realistic way)

 

[Pierre]

After all, as wrote French playwright Sacha Guitry: "Le mariage, c'est résoudre à deux les problèmes qu'on n'aurait pas eus tout seul."

It translates roughly into: "Being married, it's solving together the problems we would not have if we were single"

 

[furryfrog]

I think Laura's quote applies to your "beta" (one who is so terrified of what others think of him, including rejection, he is stuck):

It's not my "beta", I'm using the term as described in the manosphere, And yes, Laura's description very much fits in to what is described as a beta. I have not reached laura's quote yet, still trying to catch up.

You don't need the manosphere material to learn your machine and fix it. They are obsessed with a specific goal, and develop followers based on this. Also, look at their own relationships - look at RSD's Owen Cook's life and relationships (this guy is top of the PUA community food chain) and tell me this is what you want to emulate - I remember he had some kind of gf for a while, and then broke up, and complained that he invested hundreds of thousands of dollars on her and she's ungrateful, so now he's back to having orgies with girls from clubs. This is what young men are supposed to emulate and look up to? This is what you're defending? Just because there may be nuggets of truth in their material?

I agree, you don't need the manoshpere to fix you machine, but tell me, how many disillusioned young men, spending all their time playing video games will find there way here, or even fourth way material? Even the more popular philosophy of stoicism is demonized in society. I see small parallels between the manoshere and the work, small ones. The manoshpere suggest men to "become the best version of themselves" for example.
As I said before not into PUA, and unfamiliar with Owen Cook. For a young guy that will never even consider the 4th way material how can consciously improving his body language be a bad thing? Sure the motivation is based on sexual gratification, and the gains will be slight, and there are other better methods that can improve peoples centers by "accident"
I'll rephrase What I said. A man working on himself, entirely by 4th way standards, can use the concept of "approach anxiety" to work on his centers.

 

[mkrnhr]

Hi Windmill Knight,
I may not be the best to give a perspective on the matter (I'm naturally a solitary man, a savage some would say), but there is saying that goes like: "it is better to be alone than poorly accompanied".
All relationships I know in my immediate entourage (ourside the Cass community) are complete disasters. It's a relief to have doged the bullet so to say and to be able to read, observe and learn with less unnecessary drama than otherwise. Things that have to happen will happen in their due time. OSIT :)

 

[BobDylan]

For me, from starting at a point of anxiety, shyness, isolation and all the rest of it, if life had taught me anything it's if you want something, you better work for it. If you don't work for it, chances are you'll never get it.

So for me, my goal in life is to build competence across various things, to cultivate meaning in my life, in what I do and to explore different experiences (I don't want to take life for granted as it's quite precious). So that's it... in terms of a romantic relationship, I have a partner now and if I compare it to when I didn't, there are pros and cons BUT I'm glad to have an opportunity to explore this other aspect of life. So I don't know, I think it just comes down to work and determination... if you want something you just have to work for it. In a way I don't care much for failure as long as I'm striving to move in a direction that I think will improve my life and make it a better and richer experience.

If I go to bed at night and I know I haven't tried whilst I know I want something then my conscious will just torture me... on the other hand if I know I've tried, even if I haven't succeeded or made very little progress then I will sleep much better - at the end of the day you can only try. And even if you try and find what it is you wanted isn't as you thought, then guess what? You learnt a lesson and you can close that chapter in your life and move on with the benefit of experience. But this is only what a short life has taught me, who knows what another 10 or 20 years will teach. For sure there is a lot of wisdom here with members vastly older so their word is to be listened to and considered deeply.

Windmill Knight, I wish you the best... life is a journey.

 

[furryfrog]

I'm about 4 pages back, but I thought this was interesting.I was looking to see what female dating coaches recommend for girls who are looking for LTR's. She basically says girls need to start approaching guys, because the guys who do approach girls have a higher chance of not wanting an LTR. It makes sense to me. Keep in mind she is talking to millennials, otherwise known as the "hook up culture". At the end she says " guys are life partners, not life savers"

 

[Artemis]

After all, as wrote French playwright Sacha Guitry: "Le mariage, c'est résoudre à deux les problèmes qu'on n'aurait pas eus tout seul."

Yes.

Unless you're living alone, in a cabin, away from humans, this applies to literally any dynamic where you have to deal with another person, or people, in relation to yourself. You're not helping yourself or anyone by dwelling on dreams. It's wasted energy that could be better spent. The best you, or anyone, can do, is deal with what's right in front of you, with the people in your immediate environment.

 

[luc]

Yes, ready, as in work on the self. Blood, sweat and tears are the payment.

We're never happy with what we have. Plus, when we never experienced something (like a satisfying and emotionally fulfilling relationship), we often have unrealistic fantasies about it. The reality of marital life (even between compatible individuals/good matches) is often less than glorious.

Things will unfold as they were meant to unfold… and then, the real work/Work will begin.

As someone who's married, I can say this is absolutely spot-on. After we "found each other", we went through a very dark period of blood, sweat and tears - quite literally (for many reasons I won't get into here). And not just for a month, but for years. Day in day out. Yes, it also brought us closer together over time and there were moments of absolute joy and love during that time, but it nearly killed us. Now we've come out on the other side and have a wonderful relationship, but we payed a very high price. And I must say during those dark years, I often envied those who are single - how easy they must have it!

But let me define "wonderful relationship": yes, there's wonderful beauty, deep love and true companionship. But those who are single should keep in mind that being in a close and fulfilled relationship (especially if it is close and fulfilled, i.e. based on mutual trust, respect and honest communication and self-work), your life is a 24/7 trigger fest! Nowhere to run, nowhere to hide! There's nothing that brings you face to face with all your crap and shortcomings and flaws and faults and stupidity than being in a close relationship where you actually care for each other and where you actually try to improve yourself for your spouse so that you can be a better partner and help her/him blossom and reach her/his full potential. It's absolutely hard and requires constant, constant work and questioning of oneself!!

To give you an example, we have a rule that we don't go to bed mad at each other and that we don't leave the house mad at each other. Do you know how incredibly difficult even this can be sometimes?

Bottom line is, the wonderful easy-peasy relationships we like to fantasize about don't exist. Neither does the easy-peasy, no-worries, no-problems single-life. Each of us has their own lessons to learn, and life is hard no matter what, only in different ways. Looking back, it seems to me that in my/our case, the universe has provided us with exactly the right challenges at the right times, and that being in this relationship is our ideal learning environment. For others, their ideal learning environment may look completely different. We all have our longings and dreams, but I think while they can sometimes be important motivating factors, we must be constantly on guard that they don't turn into complete fantasies that have nothing to do with reality.

 

[Cosmos]

Thank you luc for mentioning this. As far as I understand, being in a romantic relationship (and for that matter in any close relationship with other human beings, really) is not about seeking or imagining an illusionary "all fine and dandy" state of affairs but working together through the whole spectrum of human feelings and difficulties which includes a lot of bad stuff and hard work on both sides and knowing that there are boundaries that need to be taken into consideration as well. That is also what I get out of Aziz work and that allowing yourself through mutually agreement to be human and working towards betterment together, in a functioning romantic relationship (and any good relationship, really), will by necessity include at least the same amount of "hard times" as good ones. Really good relationships of any kind are not defined by a "love and light state", stuffing down hurt feelings, living in resentment, wallowing in internal consideration and making everything "nice", but being assertive and willing to work to something better mutually which includes a lot of "uncomfortable" feelings. Having said that, it is also not about forcing the other or yourself to become like the other person, but on the contrary, recognizing and valuing that the other person is a valuable autonomous human being, that has the right as well as the need to be free and independent. Some if not many things are simply the business of every person themselves and you should allow everyone in the relationship some space for that matter too.

 

[Joe]

agree, you don't need the manoshpere to fix you machine, but tell me, how many disillusioned young men, spending all their time playing video games will find there way here, or even fourth way material?

We're not in the business of actively helping out "disillusioned young men". And that massive generalization itself is problematic. You have no idea what the inner world of all those men are like, what they really want, and what is good for them. So give it a rest.

For a young guy that will never even consider the 4th way material how can consciously improving his body language be a bad thing? Sure the motivation is based on sexual gratification, and the gains will be slight, and there are other better methods that can improve peoples centers by "accident"

Such a man can improve his body language by buying a book called "how to improve your body language" and avoid the appeal to narcissism, abuse and self-destructive tendencies that come with PUA crap.

 

[Scottie]

As someone who's married, I can say this is absolutely spot-on. After we "found each other", we went through a very dark period of blood, sweat and tears - quite literally (for many reasons I won't get into here). And not just for a month, but for years. Day in day out. Yes, it also brought us closer together over time and there were moments of absolute joy and love during that time, but it nearly killed us. Now we've come out on the other side and have a wonderful relationship, but we payed a very high price. And I must say during those dark years, I often envied those who are single - how easy they must have it!

But let me define "wonderful relationship": yes, there's wonderful beauty, deep love and true companionship. But those who are single should keep in mind that being in a close and fulfilled relationship (especially if it is close and fulfilled, i.e. based on mutual trust, respect and honest communication and self-work), your life is a 24/7 trigger fest! Nowhere to run, nowhere to hide! There's nothing that brings you face to face with all your crap and shortcomings and flaws and faults and stupidity than being in a close relationship where you actually care for each other and where you actually try to improve yourself for your spouse so that you can be a better partner and help her/him blossom and reach her/his full potential. It's absolutely hard and requires constant, constant work and questioning of oneself!!

[...] Bottom line is, the wonderful easy-peasy relationships we like to fantasize about don't exist. Neither does the easy-peasy, no-worries, no-problems single-life. Each of us has their own lessons to learn, and life is hard no matter what, only in different ways. Looking back, it seems to me that in my/our case, the universe has provided us with exactly the right challenges at the right times, and that being in this relationship is our ideal learning environment. For others, their ideal learning environment may look completely different. We all have our longings and dreams, but I think while they can sometimes be important motivating factors, we must be constantly on guard that they don't turn into complete fantasies that have nothing to do with reality.

Thanks for that. IMO it was the most useful, honest, and balanced post written so far in this thread... and it has sparklies!

Have you ever thought about writing a book? Working title: The Rational Couple, by Slide-o Tomato.

 

[genero81]

Bottom line is, the wonderful easy-peasy relationships we like to fantasize about don't exist. Neither does the easy-peasy, no-worries, no-problems single-life. Each of us has their own lessons to learn, and life is hard no matter what, only in different ways. Looking back, it seems to me that in my/our case, the universe has provided us with exactly the right challenges at the right times, and that being in this relationship is our ideal learning environment. For others, their ideal learning environment may look completely different. We all have our longings and dreams, but I think while they can sometimes be important motivating factors, we must be constantly on guard that they don't turn into complete fantasies that have nothing to do with reality.

Really well put. If one feels they 'need' to be in a relationship, it's probably for the wrong reasons. Then it's pretty much guaranteed to be a life distracting, energy draining, karmic entanglement, proposition. Of course there's all kinds of ways to learn lessons. Some are more efficient than others; like getting real about who you are and where you're at and dealing with what's in front of you. Instead of fantasizing about an 'ideal' life and missing the forest for the trees.

 

[fabric]

Perhaps it would be helpful for some of you to maybe list the number of couples you know WELL and CLOSE enough to have a good idea of what their relationship is like, with whom you would trade places? I don't mean, like take over a wife or husband, but whose LIFE and relationship you would trade for.

I know 2 couples who have a very good loving relationship and a good life. Compared to the others I know it’s a very small percentage and it’s very rare to see. Mind you they worked hard, suffered many trials but at the bottom of it I think they are both decent hard-working honest people and seem to intuitively know what constitutes proper behavior and I think that more than anything their relationship is a reflection of who they are and level of being. As they say, those things can either bring out the best in people or the worst. More often than not it’s the worst.

However, not for the world would I trade positions. It’s great – for them. Perhaps in another life that would be something I'd be perfectly happy with. But here, I’ve chosen a certain path and have certain aims from which I don’t plan on deviating from. So whether or not I meet someone is irrelevant to me. If I don’t in this life that’s cool. There’s always the next, if that’s what part of the soul’s lesson plan is to be.

But that in of itself is completely secondary (or even tertiary) to anything else one does in life and by making it the focal point removes from the picture a higher aim which transcends that. Without that higher aim central to your purpose there is no possibility for the development which will provide the material for a good relationship. The relationship does not provide the higher aim - no matter how much one wishes it so or fantasize that it will bring it about.

That said, if I were to meet someone, I’m not against the idea - the future is open. BUT one thing I’ve learned is that good healthy relationships (and this goes double for the romantic kind) take a very long time to develop and are not taken seriously enough - right from the beginning - by the majority of people. It’s a monumental investment and most don’t realize it should really be approached with the same caution and gravitas that a marriage would be - OSIT. (and I mean that in the traditional sense when it was actually a serious thing - nowadays it doesn't seem to carry the weight it used to).

It takes a long time to properly separate one’s emotions and chemicals in order to get an objective view of whether or not it would be something that is conducive and complementary to both of their paths. And it’s something both parties would need to understand and agree to. And that’s before anything has even happened aside from perhaps a declaration that one ‘likes’ another, imho.

That’s not to say such a relationship will be without trails and tribulations (it most certainly will be), but I think they would stand a much better chance at not causing each other and those around them undue suffering because the time was taken to create a strong foundation based on trust and honest communication as well as a clear understanding of their goals and how that fits into the bigger picture.

Alas, in this day and age of instant quick fixes and instant gratification, that’s very unlikely to happen. You actually might have better luck hoping for a random mutation to give you a beneficial adaptation!

The thing is almost nobody wants to put in that effort upfront without having to invest the time and work needed to develop it. And even if one was willing the other will by then have lost interest and moved on to someone else that can provide what they are looking for (ie, the quick hookup, the relief from solitude, the caregiver or whatever narrative they need to satisfy). In other words, (as has been mentioned) it is based on internal consideration and is what sets one up for lots of disappointment down the road.

 

[ScioAgapeOmnis]

Every couple I know, myself and my girlfriend included, have had to face their own demons one way or another. In my own experience, I found that living together with someone was what forced both of us to confront things that may have stayed buried otherwise.

I wouldn’t trade places with anyone’s life or problems, because my own took so long to get a handle on, and so much work done, that just the idea of having to start from scratch to address a completely different set of problems is daunting. I want to see this thing through, see how I manage this particular life, and enjoy the particular set of challenges.

And I think that’s another thing when it comes to a relationship - there’s always someone out there prettier, smarter, more developed, more successful, funnier, whatever. The PUA guys will seek to “upgrade” if you are able, like a new phone, even if there’s nothing particularly wrong with the one you have. I think that’s wrong and heartless in so many ways. Even if my neighbor couple were 4D STO and all my troubles were silly to them, I still wouldn’t trade places - I’m happy for them but I want to get there myself, even just to know that I can. And my relationship’s issues and how we resolve them are uniquely interesting and rewarding when we work on them. It’s like a garden you grow yourself with love, sweat, and tears vs a “superior” garden that you can pay someone to make for you. The value proposition includes the history, the work, the journey to get to the present “garden”, and the very idea that it’s even possible to “trade up”, doesn’t make sense to me.

So yeah some things are just worth the effort and the struggles, and their value is inseparable from those things. I think the hardest decision and realization to make is to understand when something is truly toxic and detrimental, despite experiences and history that otherwise make you want to hold on to it. So both have to be considered, and I suppose that’s just another lesson.

So in a sense, you develop into soul mates, I don’t think it makes sense that you can just find one.

 

[Deleted member 4320]

The PUA guys will seek to “upgrade” if you are able, like a new phone, even if there’s nothing particularly wrong with the one you have. I think that’s wrong and heartless in so many ways.

That's more than that. PUA guys have different categories, there are guys who just simply just want help with girls because they are troubling with something in their life and they googling about it and they find things about how to pick-up girls etc. And the other group, where the most guys from the PUAs are, they desire to achieve a fast and easy way to satisfy their feeling of power over the women. This attracts many psychopathic individuals.

The normal man, the only thing for him is to work to be a noble and valuable man and just keep sociable, observing the women who give him a sign and then initiate the contact.

Many things (not all) proposed by PUA and main core of the community have on aim get the control over the woman, which may have given them control over her, in a not openly aggressive way, by through deception. It is a reflection of STS world and creates the imbalance.