The "Rational Male and Female"? - Biology and Programs in Relationships

[Andi]

Well as much as some may think you are glad you haven't read Tomassi's books, I'd say well, if you are armed with pre knowladge about it(and the thread has given that), you may actually have a window view at what actually is the norm in society, therefore you would be better equipped to navigate knowing those annoying half truths and strait lies.
It's a loss of time to put energy into such books as Tomassi's but if you find you are interested deeply in such topics and strong enough to weed through, then it's the perfect window into our world and how people think and behaive by default.
Laura is not even wrong, but you know, you gotta do what you gotta do at your own level. I would fallow Laura's adivice to a T but your machine has to go through some suffering before we even come to the same conclusions.
I see this as the biggest missundestanding among the ones that know better and want to teach us and our own selfs - probably immature and with a inappropriate enough understanding of life to reach a level of colinearity - in witch case the burden is on us to investigate and luckily you have a forum here ready to accompany you even if your low - no shame, just work.

 

[Pierre]

And if I'm honest with myself, I do want, some day, to have a normal, 'good enough', long term relationship.

I think that a proper relation (i.e. the kind of beautiful love story a lot of us dream about sometimes) is something that happens not because you want it but because you are ready.

A necessary but not sufficient condition to be ready is to stop wanting a relation.

Did you ever notice that some things that you wished for only materialized after you had stopped demanding for them?

It might sound paradoxical but imagine you are a father and your kid is insistently demanding this toy car. You might refuse to buy it because you don't want to reinforce this capricious streak in your kid. But once your kid stops demanding, once he's more reasonable and behaves well, you decide to reward him and offer him this beautiful toy car he likes so much.

I don't know, maybe the Universe is this kind of Daddy!

 

[ScioAgapeOmnis]

Having said that... you should be ok being comfortable in your own skin, not "needing" a relationship. The more you feel like you won't be happy without it, and the more you feel like you need it, the more I'd say your lessons involve exactly the opposite - getting to the point of emotional and mental sovereignty. Another person can't fill a void inside you, you should both be a complement that helps the other grow, not to "complete" each other, which you should already be. It's like being a support rather than a crutch, I'd say. And I'm not saying be happy being alone forever or anything about the future at all, just be happy being alone right now in the present, and focus on the present, and let the future naturally unfold as a result of your growth, which may very well involve a healthy and happy relationship. I think that if you are at a point of contentment in the present, you're more likely to attract someone collinear, rather than someone collinear to your current state, which seems like a it would only result in some kind of co-dependency, coming from a place of needing the other. Again, I'm not sure exactly where you're coming from, but it's just something to consider and watch out for.

Basically what Pierre said just now :D

 

[Andi]

Windmill knight, me to I want to peach in a little, fwiw.
I could be opposite to you or not, in that I deeply desired a relationship that comes along to fulfil THE society's demands for a normal male destiny. But I have looked to everyone I know and how they have made their desire for relationship come as true to their expectations. And the result: most are disfunctional, some are passively beraing one onther, and to my suprise, I can't find a real example of a genuily reliable relationship among my friends or acquaintances or stories I've heard.
So that begs the question, how am I going to learn from all this and still arrive at my disire expectations. Well in my experience, you don't arrive at it at all, but you get there in the same time your opposite sex gets there. And that may never happen, sadly.
Statistically speaking, the chances of you finding a "soul mate" or a person to fulfill your projection and desires witch you and we are after, are incredibly insignificant given that we are actually seeking it and not working for it in an unattached way. Expectation is our enemy, how do you know when you've met the right one. Maybe you have some prerequisite before hand, maybe you are not who you want to be and therefore the person you meet will not be appropriate to you.
But I understand as you say, the drive. Its up to you to find out. I personally have no desire for a relationship but I deeply crave it.

I'm saying this but I'm not immune to it, and you surely know all this..I have said nothing new and there is not much to say that you don't already know.

 

[Artemis]

I think that a proper relation (i.e. the kind of beautiful love story a lot of us dream about sometimes) is something that happens not because you want it but because you are ready.

Yes, ready, as in work on the self. Blood, sweat and tears are the payment.

 

[Laura]

Perhaps it would be helpful for some of you to maybe list the number of couples you know WELL and CLOSE enough to have a good idea of what their relationship is like, with whom you would trade places? I don't mean, like take over a wife or husband, but whose LIFE and relationship you would trade for.

 

[furryfrog]

I don't see anyone refusing to do that. But you'll notice that very few actual FACTS have been posted here from the books. Not even actual quotes. If you can do that, then we can discuss them. What are the facts, which studies are quoted, if any?

Thats fair, I should have said does the book explain what it is self described to do. Does it explain Inter gender dynamics and relations, and explain male/female behaviour? I think it does. I was pointing out that it seems people are criticizing Tomasi and the material without even being familiar with the material, and just giving it a superficial glance. I agree, we should use the material itself as a bases for discussion.

 

[Laura]

Thats fair, I should have said does the book explain what it is self described to do. Does it explain Inter gender dynamics and relations, and explain male/female behaviour? I think it does. I was pointing out that it seems people are criticizing Tomasi and the material without even being familiar with the material, and just giving it a superficial glance. I agree, we should use the material itself as a bases for discussion.

Don't even go there. Book is closed.

 

[Andi]

Perhaps it would be helpful for some of you to maybe list the number of couples you know WELL and CLOSE enough to have a good idea of what their relationship is like, with whom you would trade places? I don't mean, like take over a wife or husband, but whose LIFE and relationship you would trade for.

I personally don't know anyone. It maybe has a lot to say about myself and my entourage. I've been looking for such example since I was 20. "No one" wants to put up with their significant other and that is deeply saddening. No one cares, no one looks at reality and no one wants a challenge for the bettering of them selfs.


Added: that is the reality I live in, and many as well, and that is why we come here on the forum and seeking knowladge and material to understand want on earth is happening.

 

[Joe]

. The twisted thoughts patterns must already be ingrained earlier and it might be a catalyst for worse after, maybe.

I think that's probably true for those that, as I mentioned before, seem to 'take' to the PUA program so well. And by "twisted thought patterns" we really mean some kind of pathology.

 

[furryfrog]

What we did here on this thread is not that we screamed "Tomassi is wrong, that's a FACT!", even though the whole idea gave many of us a very bad vibe from the get-go. But instead of dismissing it out of hand, we "tried it on" to see where this would take us, and brought in nuance, knowledge and experience. And the more we did so, the more it fell apart. And the more we changed our position as the observer, the more obvious it got.

If you call looking at the material superficially, as trying it on, do you call yourself dressed when your only wearing a socks?

Read a Twitter post by Tomassi yesterday where he proclaimed that a "hovering hand", meaning a man who puts his arm around a woman's shoulder and lets it hover, is a sure-tell sign of a "Beta". Talk about pathological nonsense! It's true that "by their fruits, you shall know them". It's the same with some of the Darwinists who say that they are not really against religion, that Darwinism is neutral when it comes to spirituality and so on. Nothing could be further from the truth - it's a sledge hammer intended to stamp out everything higher and drag us down into the materialist mud where the Primordial Soup of Filth is worshiped.

A "Beta" lacks confidence and the knowledge to know if in fact the girl actually wants him to put his arm around her. The beta could in fact have a big crush on this girl, and the girl could in fact have a big crush on him, secretly hoping he will make a move, they may have been on several dates already. Men still generally are required to "make the first move". An alpha would be confident, and know its up to him, and its his responsibility to act in order to keep her interested, and deepen the relationship. This is one reason women are attracted to confident guys, they don't want to sit around for month for a guy to even touch them, they will look for a more confident guy, because she want to kiss, have sex, and start a relationship.

Am I pathological, because when I was 19, and took a date to a movie, then put my arm around her shoulder? Is she pathological because she then immediately snuggled up very close to me and put her hands on my leg? Many healthy long term relationships start out this way. Have you ever taken a date to the movies?

 

[Laura]

hairyamphibian, you are about to get yourself banned.

 

[ScioAgapeOmnis]

If you call looking at the material superficially, as trying it on, do you call yourself dressed when your only wearing a socks?



A "Beta" lacks confidence and the knowledge to know if in fact the girl actually wants him to put his arm around her. The beta could in fact have a big crush on this girl, and the girl could in fact have a big crush on him, secretly hoping he will make a move, they may have been on several dates already. Men still generally are required to "make the first move". An alpha would be confident, and know its up to him, and its his responsibility to act in order to keep her interested, and deepen the relationship. This is one reason women are attracted to confident guys, they don't want to sit around for month for a guy to even touch them, they will look for a more confident guy, because she want to kiss, have sex, and start a relationship.

Am I pathological, because when I was 19, and took a date to a movie, then put my arm around her shoulder? Is she pathological because she then immediately snuggled up very close to me and put her hands on my leg? Many healthy long term relationships start out this way. Have you ever taken a date to the movies?

I think Laura's quote applies to your "beta" (one who is so terrified of what others think of him, including rejection, he is stuck):

Indeed, most problems with relationships usually turn out to be giant issues of internal considering and precious little external considering.

You don't need the manosphere material to learn your machine and fix it. They are obsessed with a specific goal, and develop followers based on this. Also, look at their own relationships - look at RSD's Owen Cook's life and relationships (this guy is top of the PUA community food chain) and tell me this is what you want to emulate - I remember he had some kind of gf for a while, and then broke up, and complained that he invested hundreds of thousands of dollars on her and she's ungrateful, so now he's back to having orgies with girls from clubs. This is what young men are supposed to emulate and look up to? This is what you're defending? Just because there may be nuggets of truth in their material?

 

[hlat]

I think that a proper relation (i.e. the kind of beautiful love story a lot of us dream about sometimes) is something that happens not because you want it but because you are ready.

A necessary but not sufficient condition to be ready is to stop wanting a relation.

Did you ever notice that some things that you wished for only materialized after you had stopped demanding for them?

I really wanted a relationship when I met my spouse, and I was not content to be alone. But before the universe allowed the meeting, I learned I had to make adjustments to myself. I had to stop being so needy. I had to lean back and create space. A mate, like anything else, is not going to be a magic bullet that solves all your problems. It's the same old advice, you want an awesome mate, then you better be awesome yourself through self development.

Q: (L) Can anybody think of another question to get me where I want to go here? (shellycheval) As individuals, what's the single most important thing we should do to Do, and to not try, but to actually take actions? What can we do to motivate ourselves as individuals? Is there something we can say or do...?

A: Service to others. Notice that the people with the most problems that always talk only about themselves and their troubles, are the ones who do and give the least. They do not have confidence in the universal law of LIFE: Get things moving and you create a vacuum in your life into which energy can flow.

 

[Approaching Infinity]

If you call looking at the material superficially, as trying it on, do you call yourself dressed when your only wearing a socks?

Just a heads up, ff. Your posts have been getting ruder and more sarcastic as the thread goes on. You might want to take a look at this. It would help to take a view from outside yourself, in order to see yourself, because you are in a state of triggered emotion, and it is not helping with the way you are interacting with others. I can get the process started by giving a perspective on how it looks from my position. Basically, you read this material, identified with it, identified with the author, and now that other people you like to some degree are criticizing this thing that you like, you are taking it personally and projecting that feeling onto the people doing the criticizing. We've all been there. And because you have incorporated this material into your identity, a rejection of that material feels like a rejection of YOU.

Take Sheridan, discussed earlier. He has a lot of good stuff in his book. We liked him, initially, until we found out what a reprehensible person he is. Plus, all the good stuff in his book is available elsewhere. Rejecting him doesn't mean rejecting whatever is true in his book, but it does mean rejecting his agenda and the means by which he went about spreading it. By their fruits you shall know them, and all that.

Am I pathological, because when I was 19, and took a date to a movie, then put my arm around her shoulder? Is she pathological because she then immediately snuggled up very close to me and put her hands on my leg?

Nope. That's pretty normal. But what's the point? You seem to think anyone here would think that's pathological. I doubt it. So what do you think the reason is that you would imagine such a thing?