The time wasn't right...

[Flow]

Regarding "self-recrimination" - it can be (and often is ) a manifestation of self-importance. It is like I have this image of myself which I cherish and would not want to be tarnished by others; I critique myself so others cannot. In this way I feed the self-importance further by thinking I am modest and humble. Whether it applies in your case or not, I do not know for sure - but something for you to consider, especially since you believe you are destined for leadership.

I can relate to that. I've noticed it in my behavior. It is like secondary program or something: when I discover my primary program, instead of observing it and working on it, I will criticize it. It is like, when ego is "caught", it finds other, subtle ways of self-defense to continue like the old. And it is more hard to recognize that mechanisms then. The most important thing to me, in recognizing this, was to ask myself am I changing or not. Am I dealing with the reality and if not, why? Whenever I see things are like they used to be, I know it's self-deception.

When it comes to posting, it can look like this: I will criticize myself from every possible corner, so others won't. Also, it will look to me like I'm doing something, while in the reality it is just an excuse for not doing. As I said, it is very subtle mechanism.

I also found on Wikipedia something that can be relate to this:

The superiority complex is an exaggerated striving for superiority in which the individual hides their feelings of inferiority. The inferiority complex, in contrast, is an exaggerated feeling of inferiority in which the individual hides their striving for superiority. While everyone has feelings of inferiority and strive to overcome them, to be called a complex, the feeling or striving must be pathological in nature. In the case of superiority complex, the individual would deny any feelings of inferiority, any attempt to uncover it would likely be met with resistance, or violence. While a patient may exhibit one complex or the other, Adler believed that if one complex was present, then the other can be found hidden in the patient's actions. Also, Adler believed that in every case of mental illness, an exaggerated feeling of inferiority will be found. Patients are defined not by whether or not they have an inferiority complex or superiority complex, but how it manifests itself in the patient's actions.[citation needed]

"We should not be astonished if in the cases where we see an inferiority [feeling] complex we find a superiority complex more or less hidden. On the other hand, if we inquire into a superiority complex and study its continuity, we can always find a more or less hidden inferiority [feeling] complex."[2]

"If a person is a show-off it is only because she or he feels inferior, because she or he does not feel strong enough to compete with others on the useful side of life. That is why she or he stays on the useless side. She or he is not in harmony with society. It seems to be a trait of human nature that when individuals - both children and adults - feel weak, they want to solve the problems of life in such a way as to obtain personal superiority without any admixture of social interest. A superiority complex is a second phase. It is a compensation for the inferiority [feeling] complex."[3]

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superiority_complex


obyvatel, can you recommend me some book about this?

 

[obyvatel]

[quote author=Flow]
obyvatel, can you recommend me some book about this?
[/quote]

You can have a look at Aleta Edwards' "Fear of the Abyss", discussed here .

One suggestion - while practicing self observation, when we inevitably see some(many) things we do not like about ourselves, there is a tendency to immediately fix it and go ahead. There is also a tendency in some people to be severely critical of themselves. Sometimes this criticism is directed at others as well. Actually the way we treat our own perceived shortcomings through our internal dialog closely mirrors the inner attitude we hold towards others' perceived shortcomings. We can successfully cover it up sometimes in our external manifestations but sooner or later our inner state leaks out.

Paying attention to these things as they arise keeping judgement aside is helpful IMO. Introspection done without an inner separation can lead to the two extremes of grandiosity and paralyzing recrimination, and often an oscillation between the two.

Inner separation means to observe oneself as if one was observing another person. When self observing, it is useful as Gurdjieff suggested in ISOTM, not to attach "I" to everything that is observed. We could find names - descriptive like Mr Leader/Ms Perfect, or neutral like Mr A/Ms B, for our various states or manifestations and proceed to study them as being separate from "I". This inner separation when practiced with a degree of emotional detachment but strong awareness ( like a curious scientist) lays the ground for potential future integration into "I".

 

[Flow]

This is very helpful. Thank you very much, obyvatel. I will check that thread and a book.

 

[Minas Tirith]

Yes, I have Minas Tirith. Many times. :D

The reason for asking was that you seemed unfamiliar with the name of Ouspensky and in another recent thread did not know the concept of 5th density. I mean, there"s nothing wrong with not having read the Wave series in their entirety yet! I just wanted to make sure. Another reason was that in different Wave books you can find a lot on modern-day shamanism and its "worth", while you still seem to have a very high opinion about it.

And then there is this:

I've always known, in the deepest recesses of my psyche, that I am destined to lead people (in what capacity I am still unsure). This has been confirmed for me by various signs, portents, synchronicity

A lot of the Wave Volume 2 is dedicated to warn exactly of these signs, portents and synchronicity, because they might come to you, as the C's put it, "compliments higher density STS". Since reading the chapters and examples I am highly cautious in that respect.

On another note I find the topic "leader/teacher" very interesting, even though I am coming from a different perspective than you are. For a very long time I have been a member of a "spiritual group" that turned out to be fake with a "leader" who could sell himself very well to be a "teacher". Since I left there I am pondering the mechanisms of this group and how I could become entrapped in it ...

In my opinion the concept of "leader" is outdated and doesn't work in a true STO community (that we aspire to become). It's a network of people that have different strengths and can support each other, putting others behind on the ladder, but not leading many in a hierarchical sense. Still, sometimes I think, that some people are more active, and Laura, in a way, is a "leader", too, here ... so, still a lot to ponder ...

M.T.

 

[Mikha'El]

Thank you for that Minas Tirith. You've made it apparent to me that I am not expressing myself properly.

 

[Mikha'El]

Yes, I have Minas Tirith. Many times. :D

The reason for asking ... some people are more active, and Laura, in a way, is a "leader", too, here ... so, still a lot to ponder ...

M.T.

Argh, I know I shouldn't do this, that I should just let this thread go as it has derailed from where I had hoped it would go, but I feel that I need to address these items since I do not want to be taken in the wrong way. I will keep it short.

Yes, I am familiar with Ouspensky and Geurdjieff. I am currently reading, with some small difficulty, Beelzebub's Tales. I am not a scholar and have never had good retention for references.

I believe that the thread you were referring to was actually a discussion on 4th density where I made a passing comparison of what 4th could be like to the film "What Dreams May come". http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,33333.msg514149.html#msg514149, and I replied here: http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,33333.msg514173.html#msg514173. Mainly I was comparing the concept of variable physicality in 4th density as described by the C's.

I do know that 5th density is the zone of self contemplation, similar to the Christian concept of Purgatory.

When I say that I am destined to be a leader, I don't mean a spiritual or political leader (no thank you!). I mean a physical leader, somewhat like a lieutenant. I see myself physically leading people to a place of safety, it goes no further than that.

I had hoped, incorrectly it seems, that people would realize that I don't specifically trust the signs, omens or synchronicities that I have experienced. But my obvious lack of experience in expressing myself in a blog format has severely derailed my original intent.

As far as corruption of the shamanic rite, well, I believe that even the most psychopathic individual can also be a channel for truth. I take truth where I find it and don't necessarily factor in the motives of the one delivering it. What matters to me is what is done with that information.

If you would kindly read the quote in my signature by Chief Red Eagle, you can get a very good idea of where I stand on the topic of community.

Hopefully I have not irrevocably tarnished my reputation here. I understand that the only way to catch the attention of the "inner circle" is to post a lot to this forum and I am in the process of learning how to do this while still maintaining my personal perspective.

 

[truth seeker]

Hi Mikha'el,

I just wanted to ask a couple of questions in order to better understand:

When I say that I am destined to be a leader, I don't mean a spiritual or political leader (no thank you!). I mean a physical leader, somewhat like a lieutenant. I see myself physically leading people to a place of safety, it goes no further than that.

It sounds as if you have a desire to help people, but are unsure of how to go about it. Like in the sense of employment/a job?

Many people feel this way and it's pretty normal, but perhaps it may be helpful to be aware of any underlying subconscious motivations that may hold roots in childhood wounds. Quite often, the desire to rescue others indicates a need for the self to be saved and an attempt to feel better about oneself. But maybe the answer lies within healing and acceptance of the wounded self so that one views the self in a more balanced way. Perhaps then we can better determine who truly needs help and how we can appropriately provide assistance.

While there is certainly nothing wrong with wanting to help. So often, it seems, we desire to do great things. From my current understanding, people who have done great things began by doing a lot of really small things first - mundane actions that show little to no immediate gratification and that usually require us to come out of our comfort zones.

As far as corruption of the shamanic rite, well, I believe that even the most psychopathic individual can also be a channel for truth. I take truth where I find it and don't necessarily factor in the motives of the one delivering it. What matters to me is what is done with that information.

This is a genuine question - How do you determine what truth is?

 

[Psalehesost]

In my opinion the concept of "leader" is outdated and doesn't work in a true STO community (that we aspire to become). It's a network of people that have different strengths and can support each other, putting others behind on the ladder, but not leading many in a hierarchical sense. Still, sometimes I think, that some people are more active, and Laura, in a way, is a "leader", too, here ... so, still a lot to ponder ...

I don't think it is that the concept of 'leader' doesn't fit, but rather that there are very different ways of defining it - and the way most people have come to see leadership does not apply to our network, and may even be ponerized. Your thoughts reminded me of some reading on this topic, and I've just posted a thread about it here.

 

[Flow]

Hopefully I have not irrevocably tarnished my reputation here. I understand that the only way to catch the attention of the "inner circle" is to post a lot to this forum and I am in the process of learning how to do this while still maintaining my personal perspective.

Hi, Mikha'el, I hope this won't be too many questions for you, but I'm interested in what does it mean to you to "catch the attention of the inner circle"? Is it something that is very important to you and why?

I understand that this all can be very frustrating and emotionally for you, but as you said, I also think it is very helpful to remember that you and I everybody here are in process of learning. We're all in this together.

 

[Mikha'El]

Hi Mikha'el,

I just wanted to ask a couple of questions in order to better understand:

When I say that I am destined to be a leader, I don't mean a spiritual or political leader (no thank you!). I mean a physical leader, somewhat like a lieutenant. I see myself physically leading people to a place of safety, it goes no further than that.

It sounds as if you have a desire to help people, but are unsure of how to go about it. Like in the sense of employment/a job?

Many people feel this way and it's pretty normal, but perhaps it may be helpful to be aware of any underlying subconscious motivations that may hold roots in childhood wounds. Quite often, the desire to rescue others indicates a need for the self to be saved and an attempt to feel better about oneself. But maybe the answer lies within healing and acceptance of the wounded self so that one views the self in a more balanced way. Perhaps then we can better determine who truly needs help and how we can appropriately provide assistance.

While there is certainly nothing wrong with wanting to help. So often, it seems, we desire to do great things. From my current understanding, people who have done great things began by doing a lot of really small things first - mundane actions that show little to no immediate gratification and that usually require us to come out of our comfort zones.

As far as corruption of the shamanic rite, well, I believe that even the most psychopathic individual can also be a channel for truth. I take truth where I find it and don't necessarily factor in the motives of the one delivering it. What matters to me is what is done with that information.

This is a genuine question - How do you determine what truth is?

Thank you for your reply.

 

[Mikha'El]

Hopefully I have not irrevocably tarnished my reputation here. I understand that the only way to catch the attention of the "inner circle" is to post a lot to this forum and I am in the process of learning how to do this while still maintaining my personal perspective.

Hi, Mikha'el, I hope this won't be too many questions for you, but I'm interested in what does it mean to you to "catch the attention of the inner circle"? Is it something that is very important to you and why?

I understand that this all can be very frustrating and emotionally for you, but as you said, I also think it is very helpful to remember that you and I everybody here are in process of learning. We're all in this together.

Oh please, ask many questions of me. This is what I was hoping for. The more that I need to consider my personal approach to life, the more that I can refine that approach and hopefully grant some insight to others through my learning.

I seek the "inner circle" because I know that I can be of assistance in the coming struggle. I seek to put my acquired skills and talents to good use and I think that what the group here is doing is of the utmost importance.

I believe that I was brought to this group for a reason that goes beyond a simple desire to improve myself. In fact, being asked to help the group would be a vindication that I do not seek assistance from the group for purely selfish reasons.

I understand that this desire, and any desire for that matter, could be seen as a selfish one. That I seek to help others because of the satisfaction that I receive from it. Well, that may be true, but is that really so bad?

 

[ggen]

Hi Mikha'el,

I just wanted to ask a couple of questions in order to better understand:

When I say that I am destined to be a leader, I don't mean a spiritual or political leader (no thank you!). I mean a physical leader, somewhat like a lieutenant. I see myself physically leading people to a place of safety, it goes no further than that.

It sounds as if you have a desire to help people, but are unsure of how to go about it. Like in the sense of employment/a job?

Many people feel this way and it's pretty normal, but perhaps it may be helpful to be aware of any underlying subconscious motivations that may hold roots in childhood wounds. Quite often, the desire to rescue others indicates a need for the self to be saved and an attempt to feel better about oneself. But maybe the answer lies within healing and acceptance of the wounded self so that one views the self in a more balanced way. Perhaps then we can better determine who truly needs help and how we can appropriately provide assistance.

While there is certainly nothing wrong with wanting to help. So often, it seems, we desire to do great things. From my current understanding, people who have done great things began by doing a lot of really small things first - mundane actions that show little to no immediate gratification and that usually require us to come out of our comfort zones.

As far as corruption of the shamanic rite, well, I believe that even the most psychopathic individual can also be a channel for truth. I take truth where I find it and don't necessarily factor in the motives of the one delivering it. What matters to me is what is done with that information.

This is a genuine question - How do you determine what truth is?

Thank you for your reply.

Hi Mikha'el. Welcome to the forum. :)

You responded to Flow with, "Oh please, ask many questions of me. This is what I was hoping for...."
Are you going to answer the questions that truth seeker asked you?

 

[Minas Tirith]

When I say that I am destined to be a leader, I don't mean a spiritual or political leader (no thank you!). I mean a physical leader, somewhat like a lieutenant. I see myself physically leading people to a place of safety, it goes no further than that.

Thanks for clarifying. You mean in the event of a natural disaster, war, or something similar?

I had hoped, incorrectly it seems, that people would realize that I don't specifically trust the signs, omens or synchronicities that I have experienced.

I read through your posts again, and there is nothing that would indicate the above.

As far as corruption of the shamanic rite, well, I believe that even the most psychopathic individual can also be a channel for truth. I take truth where I find it and don't necessarily factor in the motives of the one delivering it. What matters to me is what is done with that information.

With truthseeker I would like to ask, how do you know what is the truth? Before meeting this forum I thought I could rely on my "intuition", some "pang" (felt in the solarplexus) to distinguish truth from lies. Learning about a whole array of cognitive glitches and the concept of higher density STS influences, I am not so sure anymore This ties into the interpretation of the signs and portents discussed before.

I understand that the only way to catch the attention of the "inner circle" is to post a lot to this forum and I am in the process of learning how to do this while still maintaining my personal perspective.

Please be aware that this statement might come off a little strange for members of the outer circle (whatever that is), thinking that you are just posting for the effect to "catch the attention of the elders", not really addressing them. Not sure if I know who the Inner Circle is, anyway? Members living at the Chateau?

I seek the "inner circle" because I know that I can be of assistance in the coming struggle. I seek to put my acquired skills and talents to good use and I think that what the group here is doing is of the utmost importance.
I believe that I was brought to this group for a reason that goes beyond a simple desire to improve myself. In fact, being asked to help the group would be a vindication that I do not seek assistance from the group for purely selfish reasons.I understand that this desire, and any desire for that matter, could be seen as a selfish one.

I am not sure what you mean. First of all you ARE helping the group already by posting here. Then you offer your services in areas that you think you can contribute. Who should ask you to do exactly what?

That I seek to help others because of the satisfaction that I receive from it. Well, that may be true, but is that really so bad?

It depends. Are you helping others because of them or because of you?

There is probably a lot to digest for you on this thread, take your time with it.

Could you explain how you understand your signature by Red Eagle?

I am still interested in discussing leadership, community and "power", thanks Pashalis for opening a separate thread, I will read through it as soon as I can.



M.T.

 

[Minas Tirith]

I am still interested in discussing leadership, community and "power", thanks Pashalis for opening a separate thread, I will read through it as soon as I can.

Oops, I mean Psalehesost! :)

M.T.

 

[Mikha'El]

Hi Mikha'el,

I just wanted to ask a couple of questions in order to better understand:

When I say that I am destined to be a leader, I don't mean a spiritual or political leader (no thank you!). I mean a physical leader, somewhat like a lieutenant. I see myself physically leading people to a place of safety, it goes no further than that.

It sounds as if you have a desire to help people, but are unsure of how to go about it. Like in the sense of employment/a job?

Many people feel this way and it's pretty normal, but perhaps it may be helpful to be aware of any underlying subconscious motivations that may hold roots in childhood wounds. Quite often, the desire to rescue others indicates a need for the self to be saved and an attempt to feel better about oneself. But maybe the answer lies within healing and acceptance of the wounded self so that one views the self in a more balanced way. Perhaps then we can better determine who truly needs help and how we can appropriately provide assistance.

While there is certainly nothing wrong with wanting to help. So often, it seems, we desire to do great things. From my current understanding, people who have done great things began by doing a lot of really small things first - mundane actions that show little to no immediate gratification and that usually require us to come out of our comfort zones.

As far as corruption of the shamanic rite, well, I believe that even the most psychopathic individual can also be a channel for truth. I take truth where I find it and don't necessarily factor in the motives of the one delivering it. What matters to me is what is done with that information.

This is a genuine question - How do you determine what truth is?

Thank you for your reply.

Hi Mikha'el. Welcome to the forum. :)

You responded to Flow with, "Oh please, ask many questions of me. This is what I was hoping for...."
Are you going to answer the questions that truth seeker asked you?

Oh no! Thank you for the welcome and pointing out that issue. I guess that's what I get for posting from my phone. Something glitched.

Let me repost, as best I can, what I had originally intended.

I have always had jobs that allowed me to assist others. Most of them being in the retail industry, helping people find what they need. I have also worked at an animal hospital helping to heal animals and emotionally assist their owners. Currently, I am self-employed as a mobile computer technician.

The vast majority of my clients are little old ladies that need help with their technology. I have been having some difficulties in making ends meet as I constantly undercharge according to my friends, family and the few clients who always insist that I charge them more. If I had my way, I wouldn't charge them anything but, unfortunately, that is not how the world works these days.

As far as how I determine truth, I see truth as being different for every individual, it is up to us to decide what we choose to be truth. I don't believe that we have the capability as STS oriented individuals to discern absolute truth, if it even exists. In my experience everything in this world is determined by perspective.

My method for determining personal truth is two fold.

First, the concept expressed needs to resonate within me. What I mean by resonate is that it needs to speak to that inner part of myself that is detached from my ego. A part of myself that I am constantly developing through meditation and self-reflection. If it is a concept that resonates particularly well, then I will meditate on it to make sure that it is not my ego responding.

Second, that concept should be something that will allow me to grow as an individual and also allow me to assist others. I will compare the given concept to the years of research that I have done on selfish desires and ponerization. If I am able to determine that the given concept benefits others as well as myself then it becomes truth for me. That is, until if or when it is proven false.

I'm very bummed that my original post was lost in cyber land, I feel that I expressed myself much better originally.