The Vegetarian Myth

[Commander Borg]

Re: The Vegetarian Stance

See i didn´t attack anyone with my post in opposit to some responds. I´m glad i don´t understand everythink, maybe because of my smaller brain.
Vegetarians are really a threat to the world. I understand now. But what can i do, i´m born with this illness, and now i got everything messed up. I will look for a cure. It looks like different opinions are not welcome in this forum, thats a pity.
Best Regards
Commander Borg

 

[truth seeker]

Re: The Vegetarian Stance

Indeed, I completely agree.

It's also good to know that you were a vegetarian and went through the process of re-evaluating your diet. It makes your post and your thoughts even more valuable to me.
My last thoughts, before I took the decision to start eating animal products again were solely based on morality. I came to the conclusion that moral decisions can't, and most of the time won't, coincide with healthy decisions. A totally moral diet, as far as I'm concerned, would be to avoid eating 'any' sort of life, and this would make one die of starvation.
Maybe the core of the issue is to face the fact that we are meant to eat life, and be able to live with it without hiding behind vegeterian or other masks that serve as illusions. For me this realisation was a tough one but hopefully we can find other ways to compensate for our life-consuming existence. Supporting only ethical farmers is one.

Thanks for your reply Eva. :) Yep, these are not easy decisions to make but there are ways to support our own existence while affirming and respecting the lives of others.

It makes perfect sense. May I add, judging by myself, the 'easy way out'. I saw something I wished no part in but instead of remaining open to real solutions I went straight for the exit "I'm a vegan!". Emotional thinking. Had I looked closer in the first place I could have seen all the pro's and con's and made a more informed decision in order to cause as little harm as possible to the animals, the environment -and- myself.

Join the club. ;) When we are able to find access to correct information, we then find that we have the opportunity to make better choices that benefit all.

 

[RyanX]

Re: The Vegetarian Stance

See i didn´t attack anyone with my post in opposit to some responds.

Commander Borg,

Nobody is attacking you here. My comment was mostly a response to your poor logic. In other words, it was a response to the content of your post, not to you, yourself. Laura's comment was pointing out some deficiencies in your argument too, and proposing a hypothesis for why you would think the way you do based on the the fact that you're a vegetarian. See, if you look back in this thread, you're not the only person who's gone off thinking that we're all "crazy" for thinking vegetarians are, in essence, crazy. Laura's given you some good data that shows why no person should be a vegetarian, not to mention the wealth of data in this thread and elsewhere on the forum. Instead of taking all this personally, maybe you could at least consider the notion that a vegetarian diet is likely doing you more harm than good? Many of us have made this realization at one time or another, and come to the shocking conclusion that we've damaged our brains and our bodies by eating all veg. But recovery is possible. The body has an amazing healing capacity if given the right diet and environment.

[quote author=CB]It looks like different opinions are not welcome in this forum, thats a pity. [/quote]

As far as opinions go, there is a good thread about Opinions, if you want to know how we view opinions on this forum.

 

[Approaching Infinity]

Re: The Vegetarian Stance

Commander Borg, are you sure you're aware of the purpose of this forum? As mentioned in the terms, the work here is based on the approach of Gurdjieff. That is, we are here to see ourselves and help others to see themselves. That isn't always a pleasant process. If one of us isn't thinking straight or can't see something, it's pointed out in order to help. If something is affecting my thinking, whether it be an emotional issue, a childhood influence, or simply a food that is inflaming my brain, it's pointed out. To HELP me.

See i didn´t attack anyone with my post in opposit to some responds.

It was not an attack. It was an honest observation on the coherence of your post. In a school setting, if the student displays a misunderstanding, it's the teacher's role to point it out in hopes to correct it. But the student must be willing.

I´m glad i don´t understand everythink, maybe because of my smaller brain.

Why would anyone possibly be thankful for not understanding?? If that isn't a big enough clue that you are not thinking clearly, I don't know what is. It sounds like, "I'm glad I don't know what's going on in the world. All that suffering disturbs my peace of mind."

Vegetarians are really a threat to the world. I understand now.

Sarcasm won't help. Vegetarians are more a threat to themselves than the world. However, if they evangelize and try to convert others the way most religions do, then I'd agree, those vegetarians are a "threat".

But what can i do, i´m born with this illness, and now i got everything messed up. I will look for a cure.

Sorry, I missed something here. What illness?

It looks like different opinions are not welcome in this forum, thats a pity.

You're free to have as many opinions as you want. But here, we are not interested in opinions. We're interested in the truth. We all have opinions, but here we try to put those opinions to the test. Are they based on truth? Or are they just habitual beliefs we've been conditioned to accept without reason? It looks like you are not interested in getting to the bottom of your opinions and changing them with new evidence. Now THAT'S a pity...

 

[truth seeker]

Re: The Vegetarian Stance

1.) Vegetarians are not more sick than non-Vegetarians, i wonder where this comes from, where is the so called scientific proof as Laura wrote in her post ? Where do you all think the animals get their vitamins and nutrition's from ? I mean the cow is a vegetarian too, or am i wrong ? The elephant is a Vegetarian and some other very big animals, how come they become so big and strong without eating meat ? I wonder. By the way, i never ate meat in my entire live, I'm 36 now, have never been seriously sic, never been to the hospital.

I too have never been in the hospital or perceived negative effects from eating meat or vegetables. I was one of those people who could eat anything, not gain weight or feel any adverse effects. It was only when I cut out gluten, dairy, corn, soy and sugar and then reintroduced them to test that I noticed the difference. You say you're a vegetarian, may I ask what foods (aside from vegetables) that you eat?

Also, as I understand it, not all animals are vegetarian. I believe (corrections are welcome) that chickens are omnivores.

In addition, people are not animals. Each species, has different nutritional requirements and shouldn't be held to the same standard.

5.) As the Cassiopaeans said, we are doing the same crucial things to our 2D Friends, as the 4D STS do to us, and that is not very nice.

Not sure if you caught the post in this same thread.

6.) I wonder if anybody would eat their dog or their cat if he is hungry. If you would do that, your neighbor would probably call the police. But is there really a difference between the animals. Some are for eating some not? If you kill a whale, tiger or dolphin you are the bad guy, if you only kill a pig or cow everything is a okay ?

7.) I wonder how many of you would still eat meat if you have to kill the animals by yourself. Just to buy the packed meat from the supermarket is a little to easy.

I don't believe anyone ever said the choice to eat meat was an easy one. If we could avoid it and maintain physical and metal health, I believe that many of us would.

8.) Why is there so much anger against vegetarians ? As one of you posted, everybody can decide what to eat. I am confronted my hole life because of my vegetarianism, a lot of people tell me it's wrong or make jokes about it. I never really told a meateater such things.

I don't believe there is anger at vegetarians. In fact, at the beginning of this thread I asked that everyone try to maintain control of their emotions so that a fruitful conversation could take place. Your post(s) however have a flavor of emotional thinking to them. In terms of you never telling a carnivore that what they are doing is wrong, I'd ask you to reread this post. It seems to be exactly what you're doing.

See i didn´t attack anyone with my post in opposit to some responds. I´m glad i don´t understand everythink, maybe because of my smaller brain.
Vegetarians are really a threat to the world. I understand now. But what can i do, i´m born with this illness, and now i got everything messed up. I will look for a cure. It looks like different opinions are not welcome in this forum, thats a pity.

CB, no one is saying that there is anything personally wrong with you. As I explained to Eva, everyone is narcissitically wounded. This includes vegetarians, vegans and carnivores. The general point was that in addition to this wounding, partaking of a diet that does not help to support the body and brain so that we can optimally function can further contribute to these difficulties.

Haven't you ever read something several times and then wondered why you either couldn't remember or understand it? I have. When we feed our brains in a way that allows it to function at its best, we can help ourselves to overcome these issues. At that point, we are in a better position to help others. That includes animals.

 

[Commander Borg]

Re: The Vegetarian Stance

I guess i should have read all the posts before posting mine, i have overflown them by now. It looks like it is more the health issue what is important to you, well that's OK to me. I didn't know about that. For me it never was a health issue and i guess some of you can imagine if you have not eaten meat your hole life, it is almost impossible to start now. What i meant with " i hope i didn't understand everything" was especially the term "cognitive difficulties". English is not my mothertongue so i have sometimes difficulties (maybe cognitive). It just didn't sound very nice. I looked it up and now have a vague idea what it means. I never recognised that I'm more stupid than the others, but i guess i can live with it. My sarcasm was only my anger about Laura's answers, I'm over it now. I like her a lot, so i hope i won't get banned now because of my stupid post like the other guy. I think vegetarianism is a difficult issue, like smoking or Jews, Lot's of people get very angry discussing these issues for some reason. For myself, i rather prefer to die as a stupid old man, than be responsible of killing animals. I guess someone will reply that plants are also living beings, well i am very aware of that. I just find the situation how animals are raised is really horrible, that's what makes me sad, and hard to imagine that this meat is in any way healthy. But i guess everybody got allready something wrong in his life, no wonder there is so much disinfo out there and we are here to learn. I for myself didn't know smoking is good. I've been smoking for some years and stopped 15 years ago. After reading Laura's books i tried to start again, but it is hard for me. The bad thing is, i can only smoke while drinking beer, so i hope i don't end up as a alcoholic. It tastes so bad that makes it hard. ;D What about pot smoking, should i try this too ? Did the Cassie's said something about that issue ? And RyanX, do you really think comparing a slaughterhouse with a bakery makes any sense, but maybe i also got this wrong. I also don't like how food is processed. I don't eat much of the usual stuff and try to live from what i plant. Love and Respect is a rasta greeting from the west-indies, I'm no eso guy, i spend a lot of time with my friends on Grenada. And i always mean it for real, i like the rasta, even if they have a smaller brain due to their vegetarianism. Maybe it also is like Rudolf Steiner once said, that not all souls who are incarnated on this world are on the same level of experience, so maybe for some it is not so important anymore to eat meat. Some even try to eat light, well if they like it why not, i for myself think this time is not yet reached. Gandhi also was a vegetarian and didn't act so stupid, but again that is my opinion (Well Hitler did act stupid, his brain must have been almost vanished). So much for no. I will end with another rasta greeting: One love !
Best Regards
Commander Borg

 

[LQB]

Re: The Vegetarian Stance

LQB

Thank you very much for your thoughtful reply. I'm not in the US but the link you provided spurred me into looking a bit more actively for a nearby farm. I must admit that untill yesterday the remnants of my 'vegan program' were telling me that there's NoWay I'll find such a thing near my city, yet, a bit of slightly more focused search and I found one. They not only provide all the credentials for strictly organic procedures but they also invite everyone to visit the farm and see for themselves how animals are treated. What's more, they maintain a meat shop that is no more than 45 minutes from my house. Go figure

Thanks for the feedback Eva - I'm glad you found a good source so close. If you get the chance, go visit the farm and have them walk you through a "day in the life" so to speak.

 

[Commander Borg]

Re: The Vegetarian Stance

You say you're a vegetarian, may I ask what foods (aside from vegetables) that you eat?

Hello Truth Seeker, i eat a lot of raw food, like salads very much and an apple a day ... I even ate more than one year vegan but then decided to stop it, but still eat very little milk products, only cheese some times. I also eat this bad gluten stuff, like bread and pasta. Except of milk products i eat almost everything what is natural. What i really don't like in processed food in all kinds.
So long
Commander Borg

 

[realitybugll]

Re: The Vegetarian Stance

Commander borg--

Here is just a thought. By being vegetarian you are not contributing to the killing of animals. I understand this point. But I have to think that, one persons decision to eat meat of not, does not really make a whole lot of difference in the lives of these animals on earth. There is the theory that while one persons might not affect much... many people together can make a change (in the world). Well I kind of think this is true, I am not really sure...

Anyways it is my idea that, You for instance could eat meat. In doing so, you become smarter... and not just that, more aware, connected to those around you, and to the universe. because your body will change (chemical reactions). now say, as this new human being, you could have the ability to help those animals in a much greater way compared to your choice to not eat meat.

Another point is that I don't feel you should have to sacrifice yourself ( that is the way I see it) for the suffering of these animals.

And maybe if you really don't believe eating meat could be good for you, you can see that your conviction to not eat meat, is limiting yourself. I am assuming you have not read In search of the miraculous, because if you had (and if you do) you might see your stance does not really mean, or do, anything.

So I am trying to give you a new perspective... but I am thinking that maybe there is not a point --because no matter what, you could never eat meat.
I feel like asking, if say in a certain situation, you either could starve to death, or eat meat and live, which would you choose?

 

[truth seeker]

Re: The Vegetarian Stance

I guess i should have read all the posts before posting mine, i have overflown them by now. It looks like it is more the health issue what is important to you, well that's OK to me. I didn't know about that. For me it never was a health issue and i guess some of you can imagine if you have not eaten meat your hole life, it is almost impossible to start now. What i meant with " i hope i didn't understand everything" was especially the term "cognitive difficulties". English is not my mothertongue so i have sometimes difficulties (maybe cognitive). It just didn't sound very nice. I looked it up and now have a vague idea what it means. I never recognised that I'm more stupid than the others, but i guess i can live with it.

You're not stupid CB, just programmed as we all are. :)

My sarcasm was only my anger about Laura's answers, I'm over it now. I like her a lot, so i hope i won't get banned now because of my stupid post like the other guy.

No worries! It's not required that you agree but more important to try and keep an open mind.

I think vegetarianism is a difficult issue, like smoking or Jews, Lot's of people get very angry discussing these issues for some reason. For myself, i rather prefer to die as a stupid old man, than be responsible of killing animals. I guess someone will reply that plants are also living beings, well i am very aware of that. I just find the situation how animals are raised is really horrible, that's what makes me sad, and hard to imagine that this meat is in any way healthy. But i guess everybody got allready something wrong in his life, no wonder there is so much disinfo out there and we are here to learn. I for myself didn't know smoking is good. I've been smoking for some years and stopped 15 years ago. After reading Laura's books i tried to start again, but it is hard for me. The bad thing is, i can only smoke while drinking beer, so i hope i don't end up as a alcoholic. It tastes so bad that makes it hard. ;D What about pot smoking, should i try this too ? Did the Cassie's said something about that issue ?

We don't condone the use of illegal substances on this forum. Keep reading. You may be interested in this thread.

You say you're a vegetarian, may I ask what foods (aside from vegetables) that you eat?

Hello Truth Seeker, i eat a lot of raw food, like salads very much and an apple a day ... I even ate more than one year vegan but then decided to stop it, but still eat very little milk products, only cheese some times. I also eat this bad gluten stuff, like bread and pasta. Except of milk products i eat almost everything what is natural. What i really don't like in processed food in all kinds.

Gluten is actually the worst food we can eat along with dairy. They both not only effect the brain in ways that make us unable to think clearly but also seems to effect our moods. According to some who have pets, it seems to have the same result. When I got rid of those, I found that I wasn't tired after a meal and less congested but was energized and my thinking improved.

 

[RyanX]

Re: The Vegetarian Stance

And RyanX, do you really think comparing a slaughterhouse with a bakery makes any sense, but maybe i also got this wrong.

Commander Borg,

I wasn't comparing a slaughterhouse to a bakery. I was comparing the process of hand harvesting (for grains particularly) to the process of hand butchering. You asked whether people would really eat so much meat if they had to kill the animals themselves. I don't think that statement makes much sense if one is trying to justify a vegetarian diet because nobody wants to go through all the steps of harvesting and preparing their own food, whether it be meat or vegetables. I just know from experience that hunting, butchering and storing meat is all within the ability of the average person who has a little inclination. Not so when it comes to the staple vegetarian foods like grains, sugar, or even dairy.

Yeah, slaughterhouses are nasty places, I'm not going to disagree with you there. I try to purchase my meats directly from farms or local butchers where I know the animals were raised and killed properly. I would hope others try to do the same, but I understand that cost is sometimes an issue.

By the same token, for those who understand the dangers of gluten, bakeries aren't much better than slaughterhouses even though the death coming out of such places isn't obvious and gruesome. Death by wheat comes slow and painful over many years - perhaps decades - and you never know that it's the culprit sending you to an early grave. It's truly an evil process.

 

[Commander Borg]

Re: The Vegetarian Stance

Dear Laura,
so i guess i have to write one more post to put some things right before i get burned on the stick.

Wrong. Those advocating anthropogenic global warming and the destruction of humanity want you to believe that and, apparently, their programming worked on you because of the problem already identified above: you seem to have cognitive difficulties.

I never said that i belief in global warming and the destruction of humanity. But isn't it a fact, allready long before this global warming fraud, that the rainforest is partly cut down for cattle farming ? And isn't it a fact that the shit and urine of the animals is put on the plants we then eat ? And with all these chemicals in their body, it maybe not the best thing to do especially in those masses? Some even say all those chemicals could get into our drinking water and could be responsible for making people sterile. Where do i have cognitive difficulties here, i didn't say anything else.


There is overwhelming evidence that we can not be a vegetarian species

What about those hundreds of millions Indians who are vegetarians, do they all have smaller brains ? And what is the result in having a smaller brain, does it make you more stupid ? I thought there is scientific evidence, that we use only 10% of our brains, so it would not be too bad if it is a little smaller ? ;)

Wrong again. Most of the grain produced in the U.S. and elsewhere goes to make biofuels

This may be so in the US by now, but not everywhere. In Germany they just started to sell Biofuel and the people don't buy it because they are afraid their engines doesn't like it. In Austria there are some parts in the south where you can get Biodiesel but in most of the cities you hardly can get it, i lived in Vienna for more than 30 years and never saw it there. Here in Hungary i also never saw a place where you can get Biofuel. But you are right this Biofuel is responsible for the food problems of many countries but isn't it true, that a huge amount of Soy and corn is used by the cattle farmers and it is not the best food for the animals, a lot of it in also GMO food and then you have this modification also in the meat. Or am i wrong here ?

Wrong again. Far more water is used to produce less energy in terms of vegetable fuel than is needed for raising livestock. If animals were allowed to eat grass instead of forced to eat dried grains, they would also get a lot of their moisture from plants.

I didn't say that the meet industry uses more water than what is used for vegetable fuel. I just said that the meat industry needs a huge amount of water, to produce 1kg of meat it needs about 15.000 liters of water. Sure this could be wrong information, maybe it is only 10.000 liters, i guess it is not everywhere the same.

"Crucial"??? Like I said, being a vegetarian hasn't helped you a bit. And if you are going to quote the Cs, you should at least be aware that they do not advocate a vegetarian diet for human beings.

You wrote in one of your books, that the C's said the situation what we have with the 2D entities is similar to what the 4D STS are doing to us. Or didn't you ? And am i wrong if i say that the 4D STS do not the nicest things to us, you yourself have been angry sometimes about the situation we are in. Or am i really wrong again and just remember wrong due to my smaller brain ?


Cognitive difficulties again; apparently you didn't read the thread completely or the article and comments that led to the creation of the thread. If you had, you would notice that it is the vegetarians - including yourself - that come along with your cockamamie BS about vegetarianism that is so full of holes and logical inconsistencies that you only end up being poster kids for why humans SHOULD eat meat!

Yes i didn't read the thread completely and that was my problem i guess. I just recognised that people get often attacked because they don't eat meet, the same thing often happens to non smokers for some reason. The last part of your answere is not very nice, so i won't comment it.

Cognitive issues again. Obviously, you haven't read the Bible.

You are right i didn't read this book, but you don't have to read it to know the 10 Commandments. Is it worth reading it ? I guess it wouldn't make any sense with me, due to my non understanding.

Maybe you shouldn't act so aggressive to people who don't have your knowledge, i guess you also had to learn some things in your life and i am a few years younger and still hope i can learn some more in my life, even if i have a smaller brain than you have. I thought all souls have the same value, not dependent on their development.


My intention was never to attack people who eat meet, i just posted my thoughts about that matter, if i was to direct, i apologise. That's just the way i am.

Sincerely Yours
Commander Borg

 

[mkrnhr]

Re: The Vegetarian Stance

Commander Borg,
You are obviously having a strong emotional response at the moment. Maybe you can take some time to reread the whole thread and think calmly about the arguments before responding tomorrow of after tomorrow. This is a very natural reaction we all have had one day or another. You will learn from the experience with time. From the outside i see you over reacting and misreading what you are told. Of course you cannot see that because of your actual emotional state, it's natural. Nobody is banning you or persecuting you. You can come back tomorrow and continue this discussion.

 

[Commander Borg]

Re: The Vegetarian Stance

Here is just a thought. By being vegetarian you are not contributing to the killing of animals. I understand this point. But I have to think that, one persons decision to eat meat of not, does not really make a whole lot of difference in the lives of these animals on earth. There is the theory that while one persons might not affect much... many people together can make a change (in the world). Well I kind of think this is true, I am not really sure...

Well i didn´t really decide to not eat meat, as i said i was born as a vegetarian. And because i have never eaten it, i can´t just start now. And if you really love animals it even makes it harder.

Anyways it is my idea that, You for instance could eat meat. In doing so, you become smarter... and not just that, more aware, connected to those around you, and to the universe. because your body will change (chemical reactions). now say, as this new human being, you could have the ability to help those animals in a much greater way compared to your choice to not eat meat.

Another point is that I don't feel you should have to sacrifice yourself ( that is the way I see it) for the suffering of these animals.

I am not sacrifying myself to nothing, i saw no reason to eat meat, have no interest, didn´t know until today that my brain is shrinking.

And maybe if you really don't believe eating meat could be good for you, you can see that your conviction to not eat meat, is limiting yourself. I am assuming you have not read In search of the miraculous, because if you had (and if you do) you might see your stance does not really mean, or do, anything.

I just don´t like the idea of killing, i even talk to my vegetables sometimes before i cut their head off. :)

So I am trying to give you a new perspective... but I am thinking that maybe there is not a point --because no matter what, you could never eat meat.
I feel like asking, if say in a certain situation, you either could starve to death, or eat meat and live, which would you choose?

I guess you are right, i would prefer to starve. But i think it could be different if i really would be in such a situation, i hope i never have to find out.

 

[curious_richard]

Re: The Vegetarian Stance

CB, you can make your posts easier to read if you use the quotes tags.

There are two easy ways to do this. One way is to highlight the quoted part and click on the "Insert Quote" icon.

This will put the quote tags around the text you wish to quote.

Or you can type the quote tags yourself. Either way, here is an example of what you would see when you quote Laura:

[quote]
Wrong. Those advocating anthropogenic global warming and the destruction of humanity want you to believe that and, apparently, 
their programming worked on you because of the problem already identified above: you seem to have cognitive difficulties.
[/quote]
I never said that i belief in global warming and the destruction of humanity. But isn't it a fact, allready long before this 
global warming fraud, that the rainforest is partly cut down for cattle farming ? And isn't it a fact that the -shite- and urine 
of the animals is put on the plants we then eat ? And with all these chemicals in their body, it maybe not the best thing to 
do especially in those masses? Some even say all those chemicals could get into our drinking water and could be 
responsible for making people sterile. Where do i have cognitive difficulties here, i didn't say anything else.

And here is what it looks like after you post it:

Wrong. Those advocating anthropogenic global warming and the destruction of humanity want you to believe that and, apparently, their programming worked on you because of the problem already identified above: you seem to have cognitive difficulties.

I never said that i belief in global warming and the destruction of humanity. But isn't it a fact, allready long before this global warming fraud, that the rainforest is partly cut down for cattle farming ? And isn't it a fact that the -shite- and urine of the animals is put on the plants we then eat ? And with all these chemicals in their body, it maybe not the best thing to do especially in those masses? Some even say all those chemicals could get into our drinking water and could be responsible for making people sterile. Where do i have cognitive difficulties here, i didn't say anything else.